Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Essen1]

Mike - Unbelievable pie. You inspired me to try this recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16578.0.html

John

John,

Thanks for the kind words.

As much as I'd like to take credit for the formula, it didn't come from me. It's basically a Papa John's/Lehmann emergency clone Peter came up with here...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg71897/topicseen.html#msg71897

...and which member Grilling 24x7 (John) used here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.msg81835.html#msg81835

It's still something I'll go back to if needed.

[Essen1]

Norma, Craig & Paul...

Thanks very much for the nice comments.

This pie was just something I threw together on short notice. The formula has yet to disappoint.

[Pete-zza]

As much as I'd like to take credit for the formula, it didn't come from me. It's basically a Papa John's/Lehmann emergency clone Peter came up with here...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg71897/topicseen.html#msg71897

...and which member Grilling 24x7 (John) used here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.msg81835.html#msg81835

It's still something I'll go back to if needed.

The dough formulation was adapted from a Tom Lehmann recipe as posted at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_172/title_Home-Style-Pizza-Crust/. I first reported on that recipe in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg67686.html#msg67686. At the request of a member, I modified Tom's recipe to meet the stated wishes of the member who wanted to try the recipe. In order to do this, I had to convert Tom's recipe, which was recited with only volume measurements, into a baker's percent format. The hardest part by far was converting the recipe to baker's percent format. While I was at it, I made several changes to the baker's percents (mainly the salt and yeast levels) and I calculated the thickness factor to allow the member, or anyone else for that matter, to be able to scale the recipe up or down and to make any size of pizza. I even came up with a thicker crust version, for a Papa John's style, by using a larger thickness factor value.

In a way, I guess that one might say that I did a remodeling job to meet the needs of the member who asked for my help. I didn't realize that it would turn out as well as it apparently has. Based on Grilling 24 x 7's results, I included the recipes in the collection of "emergency" recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html (Item 3 under General). I don't recall that anyone has posted on using Tom's original recipe.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

[Essen1]

Yesterday, I experimented once again - I guess I like this formula - with the Lehmann 'emergency' dough.

I made a couple of minor changes and took a different approach. First off, I used the TF of 0.08 instead of going by weight for an 18" pie. Secondly, I lowered the oil amount from 6.6%(rounded up) to 4.5%, increased the hydration from 56.5% to 60% and the sugar level from 4.3% to 4.5%.

That last move was mistake #1.

I baked the pie on a steel plate for 6 mins at 600°F, which was mistake #2. As you can see in the pics, the pie looks good but the bottom was completely black and had a bitter taste. Not good. Although I wouldn't classify this one as a TPF (Total Pizza Failure), it came close.

Since I made dough for two pies I still have one in the fridge and it hasn't blown just yet. I'll be baking this one off tonight at a lower temp, perhaps 525°F for 6 mins and perhaps brush the rim with a little oil to aide with the browning.

Overall, though, the crust had a nice structure, light and crunchy, and was foldable. I'll report later on on Pie #2, incl. some pics.

[Essen1]

Here are the pics from the second "Lehmann" E-dough, which stayed in the fridge for 24 hrs without actually blowing. I used the Power Flour and maybe the higher gluten content and therefore stronger matrix held it all together but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, this one was baked on a steel plate, middle rack at 545°F for 5 mins with no broiler. It had excellent crunch, foldability and taste. But...there's always a but, I guess...I made another mistake and that was brushing the rim with a bit too much oil which gave the outer crust a slight oily flavor and texture. Another lesson learned.

Other than that, it was a great pie.

I also tested for the first time Restaurant Depot's house brand Mozzarella "Supremo Italiano". Not bad. Actually, not bad at all. It's a great cheese, to be honest, with good melting capabilities, nice taste and texture. Mix it at a 75/25 ratio with a low-moisture whole milk and you might get really close to the Grande for about half the price per pound.

Pics...

[scott123]

Mike, I want you to see something 

[scott123]

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?  Are you still sold on Avellino's 10 minute bake time?  

Joking aside, it's a beautiful pie.  You're took a somewhat circuitous route away from NY pizza, and with the drop in oil, back into the NY realm, but, hey, whatever gets you there. Obviously, you're going to continue tweaking, as we all do, but I think you're at a point now where you can see what steel can do and what cordierite can't.

That cheese is definitely a keeper- assuming, of course, that you didn't have to buy so much of it that you can't use it up quickly.

This is a very Avellino-ish pie. That may not even have been your goal, but that's the result.  If you did want to go a little more in that direction, I might drop the oil a tiny bit more and go with a bit more sauce- but the level of sauce could very well be what you prefer. The Avellino pie does, imo, have a slightly better aesthetic, though, because of the redness of the sauce.

This all being said, really really nice work.

[Essen1]

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?  Are you still sold on Avellino's 10 minute bake time?  

Joking aside, it's a beautiful pie.  You're took a somewhat circuitous route away from NY pizza, and with the drop in oil, back into the NY realm, but, hey, whatever gets you there. Obviously, you're going to continue tweaking, as we all do, but I think you're at a point now where you can see what steel can do and what cordierite can't.

That cheese is definitely a keeper- assuming, of course, that you didn't have to buy so much of it that you can't use it up quickly.

This is a very Avellino-ish pie. That may not even have been your goal, but that's the result.  If you did want to go a little more in that direction, I might drop the oil a tiny bit more and go with a bit more sauce- but the level of sauce could very well be what you prefer. The Avellino pie does, imo, have a slightly better aesthetic, though, because of the redness of the sauce.

This all being said, really really nice work.

Scotty,

Yes, I'm seeing what you're seeing. However, I think that was a coincidence, crust-wise, not bake times. I think I'm starting to get a handle on baking with steel. Took awhile and will still take some tweaking of formulas but it's been fun so far.

The cheese was very good. I might try the 75/25 combo.

[Essen1]

A bit more steel plate baking from last night...

Temp was around 560°F. Bake time 5 mins...

[msheetrit]

Looks good mike!

[norma427]

Mike,

Your pizza sure looks great!  What TF did you use?

Norma

[Essen1]

Michael & Norma,

Thanks for the kind words.


Norma,

the TF was 0.08 for an 18" pie. I think I stretched the pie a bit uneven, though, because there were thin spots and a couple of thicker ones. Got to be more consistent 

[Essen1]

Baked off the other dough ball I had sitting in the fridge for 48hrs.

Steel plate, 560°F, middle rack, 5 mins, no broiler. I'm getting the hang of baking with steel it seems.

Pie came out great.

[scott123]

Mike, it looks like you can make this particular recipe with one hand tied behind your back.  Now that you've fully gotten the hang of the steel plate, I'd like to see you, at some point, delve into something a little more NYish by decreasing the oil and sugar. 

Earlier in this thread you said this about Avellino's crust:

The exterior of the crust was very crunchy but had a moist, almost creamy-like interior.

You can achieve this with more water. If you're still working with the power flour, then I suggest going back to the 63-65 realm you were working with before. Now, as you increase the water, the crumb will get more moist/creamy, but, you'll lose some of your exterior crunch. The only way to get Avellino's exterior crunch with a moist crumb is to re-heat the slice after it's cooked.

[Essen1]

Mike, it looks like you can make this particular recipe with one hand tied behind your back.  Now that you've fully gotten the hang of the steel plate, I'd like to see you, at some point, delve into something a little more NYish by decreasing the oil and sugar. 

Earlier in this thread you said this about Avellino's crust:

You can achieve this with more water. If you're still working with the power flour, then I suggest going back to the 63-65 realm you were working with before. Now, as you increase the water, the crumb will get more moist/creamy, but, you'll lose some of your exterior crunch. The only way to get Avellino's exterior crunch with a moist crumb is to re-heat the slice after it's cooked.

Scotty,

I didn't use the Lehmann E-dough for the last two pies you see above. I used member Fazzari's (John) dough shown here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.msg163416.html#msg163416

I chose the second option he posted and bulk-fermented the dough for 12 hrs, then balled it and fermented it for another 12 hrs. That was the first pie. The second one I baked off received a fermentation of 48 hrs total, 12 bulk and 36 individual. Both pies came out excellent and I want to thank John for the formula.

The only thing I did changed, though, was the hydration. I increased it from 58% to 60%. I'm still using the PPF and since I have now a steady source to get it, I'm sure I'll be using it for some time in the future. I love this flour. It's definitely one of the best I have worked with and I can really recommend this to any member on here, even though it's not bromated.

Anyway, I have another little project lined up over the next two or three days before I'll give your suggestion a try, such as lowering the oil and sugar but increasing the hydro. Will do that stat once my other project is done.


To John (Fazzari):

Your dough was a great one but may,...may!..., need some tweaking for baking with a steel plate. Excellent stuff, though.

[Essen1]

Last night I started a little side project after I had a chat with a pizza operator (NY-style pizza), who revealed that they use Apple juice in their dough.

I don't really know what effect AJ can possibly have on the dough other than perhaps in taste but maybe it's the chemical make-up that works well with a dough. During the conversation an extremely low yeast amount also was revealed. With that said, I tried to recreate the dough at home, with Peter's assistance, since I have never used AJ in a dough before.

I put the dough together using the Power flour, mixed it for 4 minutes, rested it for 20 and then gave the mixer another spin for about 6 minutes on Speed 2. After it came out of the bowl, I shaped it into a large ball and let it rest on the counter for about 15 minutes before dividing it into two 577 gram dough balls.

The dough felt very smooth. I brushed it slightly with salad oil, covered the dough with plastic wrap and let it start to ferment at room temp (low 60's) overnight for 12 hrs before it went into the fridge this morning. The pics show the fermentation after 3 hours and then from this morning. Although the yeast amount was extremely low (0.27gr) it showed a nice rise.

So far, the dough looks encouraging for tonight's bake. More later...

[scott123]

Scotty,

I didn't use the Lehmann E-dough for the last two pies you see above. I used member Fazzari's (John) dough shown here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.msg163416.html#msg163416
... ...
The only thing I did changed, though, was the hydration. I increased it from 58% to 60%.

Ah, good, so you've already moved in a more NY direction. I use 3% oil personally, although I think it stems from the need to tenderize the 14% protein All Trumps.  Now that I'm in the 12.5% protein realm, I might drop the oil.  With your power flour, though, 3% should be fine.  You might still want to drop the sugar a bit more, but out of everything, I'm dying to see what 63-65% hydration does for you, now that you've learned to get the most out of the steel.

I love this flour. It's definitely one of the best I have worked with and I can really recommend this to any member on here, even though it's not bromated.

Based upon the results I've seen, I feel comfortable saying that Pendleton produces the best non bromated flour you can buy.  I've talked about this elsewhere, but I believe that their choice to avoid bromate as well as their commercial target demographic (as opposed to KAs retail focus) causes them to strive just a little harder than the bigger guys and this extra effort shows in superior flour.  The bromated outfits (like GM) tend to focus on their cash cows- their bromated flours, while I think they put less resources into the unbromated lines.  I haven't worked with too many pizzerias that avoid bromate, but, for the ones that I have consulted with, I've been pushing them towards Pendleton- and will continue to do so.

[scott123]

Last night I started a little side project after I had a chat with a pizza operator (NY-style pizza), who revealed that they use Apple juice in their dough.

No offense, Mike, but, at this point, I think the pizzeria guys you're talking to (for the most part) should be taking advice from you, not the other way around 

[Jackie Tran]

No offense, Mike, but, at this point, I think the pizzeria guys you're talking to (for the most part) should be taking advice from you, not the other way around 

Scott, I know AJ isn't traditional but I can't see it making a big difference or hurting the crust.  If anything, depending on how much Mike used, it'll add a bit of sugar and acid to the dough.  If the sugar doesn't prove to be a problem, it should give him a bit more flavor.

[Essen1]

Ah, good, so you've already moved in a more NY direction. I use 3% oil personally, although I think it stems from the need to tenderize the 14% protein All Trumps.  Now that I'm in the 12.5% protein realm, I might drop the oil.  With your power flour, though, 3% should be fine.  You might still want to drop the sugar a bit more, but out of everything, I'm dying to see what 63-65% hydration does for you, now that you've learned to get the most out of the steel.

Based upon the results I've seen, I feel comfortable saying that Pendleton produces the best non bromated flour you can buy.  I've talked about this elsewhere, but I believe that their choice to avoid bromate as well as their commercial target demographic (as opposed to KAs retail focus) causes them to strive just a little harder than the bigger guys and this extra effort shows in superior flour.  The bromated outfits (like GM) tend to focus on their cash cows- their bromated flours, while I think they put less resources into the unbromated lines.  I haven't worked with too many pizzerias that avoid bromate, but, for the ones that I have consulted with, I've been pushing them towards Pendleton- and will continue to do so.

Scotty,

I think I'll stay in the 2% - 2.5% range of oil when using the Pendleton flour. That range has given me great results so far. However, I'm not saying completely 'No' to your suggestion of 3% but the next dough is already in the making, using 64% hydration.

On the matter of using the steel plate, I think I have finally found the sweet spot, temperature-wise, of 565°F, give or take a few. That temp has produced the best results so far, with the steel plate on the middle rack. Looks like I'm getting closer to those elusive Marcello's & Avellino crusts.

I've said it before...the Pendleton Power flour is honestly the best unbromated flour available and I've tried a bunch of flours, from KABF to Stone Buhr, to Giusto's Bread flour to Harvest King, etc. The PPF has delivered the most superior pizza doughs, imho, compared to the other flours. The only one that was better, however, was the All Trumps bromated version. I wouldn't the PPF, though, for applications such as the Tartine bread dough, for example.

Chau,

Regarding the Apple juice, I don't know why my pizza guy uses it in his doughs but I didn't detect any increased sugar levels nor acidity. It may have helped a bit with the browning but AJ is not what I would use on an ongoing basis. I'll have some pics to post later. Don't have them here with me at work...