Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 109006 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2009, 07:47:07 PM »
Just came across this, with tidbits of more info on the Totonno's pie. It's interesting how the pizzaiolo handles multiple skins at once:

http://lizjohnson.lohudblogs.com/2009/03/16/before-the-fire-last-day-at-pizza-legend-totonnos/
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2009, 06:40:12 AM »
I have to apologize for the stale look in these pics.

When they were taken, the crust had already cooled down to almost nothing, thanks to the GF who had other ideas right after the pie came out of the oven. Believe me, I really tried to fend for it but her arguments and weapons where just too overwhelming and I lost the battle.  :'(

I'm happy I did, though.  ;D

I digress.

Anyway...reviewing a cold crust is a tough thing to do so I won't even start with something like "IF the crust would have been hot..." etc. The cold one however, was still very impressing if not great.

It was light as air, had an amazing crunch to it, was soft and foldable (even the next morning!), sported a good structure and didn't have that sugary flavor the 24hr one had. The cornicione (rim) was extremely light and it was baked at around 615 F for about 7 mins with a few seconds under the broiler.

Overall verdict for this one: Got to make the 48hr crust again and taste it hot/warm next time...perhaps on a day when they have more Play-off Hockey on and the GF is out with the girls.  ;D

In regards to the 72hr crust..I was suppose to try that one tonight but instead chose to spend some well deserved time with my GF on a Saturday night, and opted for a herb-crusted salmon fillet. I'll test the last of the crusts tomorrow, which will have received a 96hr rise by then and will make a new batch using the same flour combo and formulation you see above, tomorrow and will do a 48hr and 72hr cold-rise respectively.

A few pics...

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 06:48:20 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2009, 09:54:32 AM »
Well it sounds like ya had a great night, but I'm deeply saddened how that beautiful pie sat neglected alone. I send my condolences, as I sit haunted by visions of the slow fall from piping fresh heights to the chasms of icy ruin. It was a good pizza, so light and happy with its whimsically placed cheeses and youthful spice, it clearly meant no harm to anyone. It just wanted to have a place in this world, a purpose if you will, a reason to exist. Isn't that what we all truly desire after all?

I just hope you're both happy.
J.

 :pizza: RIP
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2009, 02:11:32 PM »
Well it sounds like ya had a great night, but I'm deeply saddened how that beautiful pie sat neglected alone. I send my condolences, as I sit haunted by visions of the slow fall from piping fresh heights to the chasms of icy ruin. It was a good pizza, so light and happy with its whimsically placed cheeses and youthful spice, it clearly meant no harm to anyone. It just wanted to have a place in this world, a purpose if you will, a reason to exist. Isn't that what we all truly desire after all?

I just hope you're both happy.
J.

 :pizza: RIP

What would I do without you, Bro? Thanks for the eulogy!

That brings up the question "What do you want on your tombstone?"
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2009, 03:09:45 PM »
 :-D :-D

Oh, so I guess you're surprised to see that I'm such a good eugoogleizer.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2009, 03:28:51 PM »
:-D :-D

Oh, so I guess you're surprised to see that I'm such a good eugoogleizer.



I am. But, Jim...I don't want Zoolander on my tombstone  ??? I'll have Italian sausage instead, if substitutions are allowed.
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2009, 12:01:18 PM »
Ahahaha.  ;D

Listen though, on a serious note, you have inspired me once again. I was tired of these little pizzas, and your big pizzeria style has made me step outside my comfort zone.

My formula was Lehmann's:
KABF 11,800 oz.
Water 7,700 oz.
Salt 200 oz.
IDY 200 oz.
Oil 120 oz.

Hand kneading was a problem, but I got it down. The hard part was finding a Tupperware container large enough. I ended up using a grand piano crate that I then rolled into a refrigerated semi-trailer. The dough was easy to handle, no tears, and the aerial tosses were something to see. Here's the finished pie. I had a few friends come by to share, I didn't think I could eat it all myself, and after seeing your pizza die a long neglected death I wasn't willing to take any chances.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 12:03:40 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2009, 12:24:01 PM »
NYP,

That's friggin hilarious!  ;D
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2009, 02:44:37 PM »
^ Sure, easy for you to say, I had to eat 96 slices! I'm paying for it today.  :-\

Meanwhile, for those who want to try my formula, you need to be aware of some additional costs. Piano crates and refrigerated truck rentals aside, you'll also need this pizza cutter.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 02:46:21 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2009, 02:52:36 PM »
Quote
Sure, easy for you to say, I had to eat 96 slices! I'm paying for it today.

Yo, Fat Boy!

I think you're in dire need of a gym membership, bro, after consuming most of your Pizza UFO  ;D

Just trying to help...
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2009, 03:12:03 PM »
Mike, wow, it's just amazing you phrased it like that! Why, you ask? Here's me and my bro today going to Bally's Total Fitness. To give you an idea of just how big we got yesterday those are Harley 1450 "Fatboys" we are riding. It's gonna be a long road ahead.
 :(
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2009, 03:14:28 PM »
LMAO!!!

That's hilarious!  ;D
Mike

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Offline JConk007

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2009, 09:33:04 PM »
 :-D LOL great stuff guys! I will never look at my walk behind saw again without thinking of this thread
John
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Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2009, 06:58:46 PM »
This thread is going dormant! A whole week fermentation? Must be a killer pie coming up on the next update  :)

It seems you're working to get a Marcello's crust and ending with Totonno's looking pies...sounds like a winning breed.

Mike, these are fine looking pies. I've been making Neapolitan pizzas for the past month and couldn't appreciate the beauty of an NY until lately as I've been testing to come up with a good recipe for my 18 inch NY.

In one previous test, I made a dough with 60% Hydration that ended resistant to stretching. So I went ahead and used a rolling pin. To my surprise, considering I don't like using a rolling pin...the pizza turned out great. I believe what happened is because with using the rolling pin, all the air bubbles got pushed out of the dough resulting in a evenly flattened dense crust. Looking very much like the following Totonno's pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliewilsonworld/3337691950/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandonz/2806564569/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orangejuicy/460519186/

When I compare it to a previous dough with 65% hydration, this 60% had a better crust to my personal preference. While I always thought a lower hydration dough would be more leathery, chewy and dry, the 60% dough seemed like the softer pizza. The higher hydration dough, while hand stretched, was a little on the crackery side while the lower hydration, rolling pin stretched had nice soft crunch which I liked. Both were baked at 800 F. Does it make sense? It made me wonder if that is what's being done at Totonno's?

From the link you provided http://lizjohnson.lohudblogs.com/2009/03/16/before-the-fire-last-day-at-pizza-legend-totonnos/ , it seems like the dough is not showing any signs of bubbling which I think produces a dense crust with minimal oven spring. Do they use less yeast? Is the dough closer to being under or over fermented so that the bubbles don't exist?

It's been always said that a high hydration dough is suitable for high-temp ovens. Has anyone experienced with low hydration 60%, 58% or lower and bake at high temp.?

And, here is a video that could give you more info: From the way the dough is stretching, it seemed dry to me. It really doesn't look like a high hydration dough that you would expect to be used in a coal oven pizzeria.

To me, the question remains: How to create an extensible, dense 60% hydration dough? Without cheating with the rolling-pin of course  :P

Saad
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 07:11:35 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2009, 07:26:50 PM »
Saad,

By any chance, did you note the bake times for the two pizzas, either actual or relative?

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2009, 01:42:00 AM »
Saad,

By any chance, did you note the bake times for the two pizzas, either actual or relative?

Peter

I haven't timed it which is dumb I know but I'm sure there was not much of a difference between them. Both pies baked around 5 minutes.

I will be attempting the 60% hydration dough again and will get an accurate bake time and pictures. If the bake is of importance to analyze the situation, I can then revisit the 65% hydration dough and compare. Let me know because I'm very interested in a Totonno's style pizza now, thanks to Mike  ;D

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2009, 11:00:22 AM »
Saad,

I think there are a couple of principles that may have come into play with the two pizzas: hydration and skin density/thickness.

With respect to the hydration, a dough with a higher hydration will expand more freely than one with a lower hydration. It will also bake up differently as a result because it will have more insulative properties than the dough with the lower hydration and concentrate the heat more on the bottom and produce a crispier bottom crust. Tom Lehmann discusses this difference in his "Physics 101" post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#45476.

In your case, when you rolled out the dough, you compressed it and forced out a certain amount of the gas. That made the skin more dense (less gas) and thinner than if you had opened up the skin entirely by hand. As a result, the heat transfer through the skin should have been greater and faster, leading to a faster top bake. If you used the appearance of the top of the pizza to decide when to pull the pizza from the oven, as is quite common, you may have pulled the pizza sooner than you did the other pizza, which would have had a slower top bake. That could have translated into a softer, less crispy crust.

Tom Lehmann sometimes suggests that one roll out or sheet a dough ball part way and then stretch the skin out to the final, desired size by hand. This approach is discussed by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#41080. I believe the same method is shown in a Lehmann (Zeak) video at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_181/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough/. There are three parts to the video. I believe the sheeting/stretching method is covered in Part 2.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2009, 03:19:52 PM »
Saad,

I think there are a couple of principles that may have come into play with the two pizzas: hydration and skin density/thickness.

With respect to the hydration, a dough with a higher hydration will expand more freely than one with a lower hydration. It will also bake up differently as a result because it will have more insulative properties than the dough with the lower hydration and concentrate the heat more on the bottom and produce a crispier bottom crust. Tom Lehmann discusses this difference in his "Physics 101" post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#45476.

In your case, when you rolled out the dough, you compressed it and forced out a certain amount of the gas. That made the skin more dense (less gas) and thinner than if you had opened up the skin entirely by hand. As a result, the heat transfer through the skin should have been greater and faster, leading to a faster top bake. If you used the appearance of the top of the pizza to decide when to pull the pizza from the oven, as is quite common, you may have pulled the pizza sooner than you did the other pizza, which would have had a slower top bake. That could have translated into a softer, less crispy crust.

Tom Lehmann sometimes suggests that one roll out or sheet a dough ball part way and then stretch the skin out to the final, desired size by hand. This approach is discussed by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#41080. I believe the same method is shown in a Lehmann (Zeak) video at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_181/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough/. There are three parts to the video. I believe the sheeting/stretching method is covered in Part 2.

Peter

Accodrding to Tom's post "This is also why a higher dough absorption (within reason) produces a crispier crust; the dough is softer, and it has the capacity to expand more during baking", does he mean a thicker/puffier crust. Because if this is the case then I might start to think that a high hydration dough isn't suitable for NY style where I should be looking for a thinner and more dense crust....or maybe this is how I personally like it  :-D

Unfortunately during baketime, I used low-moisture part-skim mozzarella on the lower hydration dough and fresh whole milk mozzarella on the higher hydration dough. On top of that, I used the buttom of the crust as the indicator. The low hydration crust produced amazing bottom char but of course on the cost of cooking the cheese. As for the high hydration dough, It did not produce as much charring and I had to pull it out because it started to get dry and that's probably why it was too leathery and cracker like. I wonder why the high hydration dough didn't show a good char effect.

I think I should recreate the 2 doughs using exact procedures, toppings, bake temp. and time to make a fair comparison.


Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2009, 05:22:39 PM »
Saad,

Since Tom talked only in general comparison terms it is hard to say for sure what he meant. However, I believe he meant that the higher hydration doughs would produce softer and puffier crusts.

It would not be unusual to see a hydration of over 65% for a NY style. Member tdeane (Terry) recently mentioned that he uses around 66% hydration for his NY style dough that is baked in a commercial oven in his pizzeria. Also, in the early days, the NY pizza makers used around 65% hydration even with all-purpose flour. It's possible that some of the present NY pizza makers are still using similar hydration values. However, from what I have read, a range of around 56-59% seems more common. That seems to work better for workers who are not trained to handle highly hydrated doughs. In Terry's case, he is the only one to make the skins for his NY style and he has developed the skills to work with around 66% hydration.

I agree that the best test is to make two doughs as similar as possible but for the hydration, build and bake the pizzas the same way (you perhaps should use equal weights of everything you put on the pizzas), and compare the results. I would think that more simply dressed pizzas would be preferable to loading them up with a lot of toppings. That should reduce the number of variables.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2009, 02:12:54 AM »
Peter,

Mike, sorry for hijacking your thread.  >:D

Tom also noted specifically that a high hydration dough will produce a crispier crust bottom. When I tried the low hydration, it products softer crispiness. It's hard to explain. It was more like cracker-crispy compared to soft-crunch. Haha I'm bad at explaining things sometimes..../respect language barrier  ;D

There is no doubt about the high hydration doughs being used where better skills are needed but does that neccessarly translate into a superior product? I've always had this tendency to shoot for higher hydration, dunno why really but after trying a low hydration dough and then watching this video and seeing how the dough of an NY elite pizzeria feels, looked either low hydration or too cold. It also produces a dense crust. I'm just thinking I should try the low hydration as an option and stop thinking of it as an inferior product.

I will be making 2 identical pies in everything except for hydration. Will report.

Saad


 

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