Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

Matthew was able to produce some coal-fired looking pies in his SAGE countertop oven. I was thinking about buying one myself but a 240 V outlet is needed and there's no way in hell that my Apt management would let me install it.

I might try the oil again but I know from past experiences that although it provides some degree of coloration on the outer crust, it won't go as dark as John's...or Totonno's for that matter.

We'll see...time to get creative 

There is always a blowtorch...

[Jackie Tran]

I always buy them fresh, meaning they are displayed in bulk not packaged and wrapped with plastic foil as you might see in many supermarkets. Then they get sliced thin as you can see in the pics. Rarely do I have a problem with them flooding the pies with their liquid.

Bingo!  When I switched from the packaged shrooms to the bulk shrooms on display, I noticed the bulk shrooms don't leak water like the packaged ones.  I'm not sure if it's a different mushroom or having them out in the open allows them to rid of their excess moisture.  Either way, that's all I buy now and just like Mike, slice thin.

Mike I was also just thinking of recommending one of those handheld torches for creme brulee.  You can probably get any color of rim you want with that thing.  

[Essen1]

Bingo!  When I switched from the packaged shrooms to the bulk shrooms on display, I noticed the bulk shrooms don't leak water like the packaged ones.  I'm not sure if it's a different mushroom or having them out in the open allows them to rid of their excess moisture.  Either way, that's all I buy now and just like Mike, slice thin.

Mike I was also just thinking of recommending one of those handheld torches for creme brulee.  You can probably get any color of rim you want with that thing.  

Chau & Craig,

I tried that stunt with the blow torch, one of those 6 oz types, early on. Didn't work out too well...  It's great for Creme Brulee, yes.


Chau,

Mushroom-wise, I think that's the only way to go.

Unfortunately, they lose a bit of moisture while being on the shelf which might compromise other recipes besides pizza, let's say a creamy mushroom sauce, where you'd love to have that liquid.

For pizza, though, they're perfect.  

[Essen1]

Well, it didn't go as planned. Crust was nice, the coloration...uhm...not so much. Temp was 585°F and the bake time 6 mins.

I'll just let the pics speak for themselves.

The cheese I used was an entirely different matter, though. I used 2/3 Grande mozza and 1/3 Grande Provolone. It had a nice tang to it. And yes, Grande is a superior cheese. The melting capabilities were excellent.

[scott123]

Sorry, Mike, I should have told you that more water requires additional heat from below AND above.  I had talked about using the broiler to replicate John's, but I failed to mention that you're going to need to use the broiler for a 64% hydration dough as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I find it helps to use the broiler towards the end of the bake.

What was the fermentation time?

[Essen1]

Sorry, Mike, I should have told you that more water requires additional heat from below AND above.  I had talked about using the broiler to replicate John's, but I failed to mention that you're going to need to use the broiler for a 64% hydration dough as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I find it helps to use the broiler towards the end of the bake.

What was the fermentation time?

Scotty,

I did actually use the broiler for a minute but I guess it wasn't enough. Fermentation was almost 24 hrs.

[scott123]

Mike, if that was a minute of broiling, then, next time, I shoot for something around 3 minutes- something along the lines of

pizza in
2 minutes
broiler on
3 minutes

Total time: 5

How close is your broiler to your stone?

[Essen1]

I have the stone on the middle rack and moved the pie up to the top rack with a peel.

Top rack is about 5-6 inches away from the broiler.

[scott123]

So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you baked the pizza on the stone for 5 minutes and then moved it to the top rack while it was broiling for 1 more minute?

Even if it doesn't look as stunning as your previous bakes, it was still a pretty delicious pie, right?

[Essen1]

So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you baked the pizza on the stone for 5 minutes and then moved it to the top rack while it was broiling for 1 more minute?

Even if it doesn't look as stunning as your previous bakes, it was still a pretty delicious pie, right?

That's correct.

It was good, yes. But nowhere near where it could have been. I gotta rethink the approach, Scotty.

[scott123]

That's correct.

It was good, yes. But nowhere near where it could have been. I gotta rethink the approach, Scotty.

Mikey, I'm really hoping that you don't rethink it too much.  The modified Fazzari formula produced stunning pizzas that were, imo, just a titch away from Avellino's.  Modified Fazzari + enough additional water to give you a moister (creamier) crumb = win. The extra water is complicating things with the bake, but I'm certain you can dial it in. I might have steered you wrong by saying 63-65 and 62 might be a happier hydration, and maybe 585 is a tiny bit too high on the hearth (perhaps 575), but, with a tweak or two, you're going to nail it.

You're close.  Really close.  You could make modified Fazzari's from here on out and be loved by all, but since you like the creaminess of the Avellino crumb, I really think it's worth a little extra tinkering.

[Essen1]

Mikey, I'm really hoping that you don't rethink it too much.  The modified Fazzari formula produced stunning pizzas that were, imo, just a titch away from Avellino's.  Modified Fazzari + enough additional water to give you a moister (creamier) crumb = win. The extra water is complicating things with the bake, but I'm certain you can dial it in. I might have steered you wrong by saying 63-65 and 62 might be a happier hydration, and maybe 585 is a tiny bit too high on the hearth (perhaps 575), but, with a tweak or two, you're going to nail it.

You're close.  Really close.  You could make modified Fazzari's from here on out and be loved by all, but since you like the creaminess of the Avellino crumb, I really think it's worth a little extra tinkering.

Scotty,

I won't rethink too much about a new approach. Like you said it's just a tweak or two away, nothing drastic. I'm glad I finally got a handle on the steel plate baking methods, though. That took a little time getting used to it.

Regarding John's formula, it was a good one and produced good results but... and this is not to take anything away from his dough or insinuate that it's not worthy of a more in-depth exploration... I'd rather come up with my own than leaning on others' work and efforts.

I hope he doesn't take offense...

Anyway, to me it's just a matter of time, and tons of fun, to get the steel plate thing perfected with a dough that can rival those here in SF. That might be a tall order but I have my own 'perfect' crust visualized and won't rest until I get at least 75%-80% close because a 100% might not be realistic. A 100% would be icing on the cake and having Christmas, Easter and my B-day fall all on the same day.

My comfort zone in the past, hydration-wise, was always between 61% - 63%, although I used a 66% hydro with the All Trumps. I think that if I can get the temps dialed in correctly for a 62% or 63% hydro dough, with the correct amount of oil and sugar, I should be able to get close to the Avellino, Marcello's and most other common NY-style doughs.

With that said, I still have a 64% hydro dough ball in the fridge and might as well bake that one off tonight and see if there's any changes. I also might raise the temp by 5-10 degrees...

More later...

[Essen1]

Btw, Scotty, here's our friend David Kover who 'reviewed' Avellino's on Slice:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/06/pizza-obsessives-david-kover-slice-contributor.html

For his own homemade NY-style pies he uses J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's recipe. I thought you'd get a kick out of that one.

[fazzari]

Scotty,

I won't rethink too much about a new approach. Like you said it's just a tweak or two away, nothing drastic. I'm glad I finally got a handle on the steel plate baking methods, though. That took a little time getting used to it.

Regarding John's formula, it was a good one and produced good results but... and this is not to take anything away from his dough or insinuate that it's not worthy of a more in-depth exploration... I'd rather come up with my own than leaning on others' work and efforts.

I hope he doesn't take offense...

Anyway, to me it's just a matter of time, and tons of fun, to get the steel plate thing perfected with a dough that can rival those here in SF. That might be a tall order but I have my own 'perfect' crust visualized and won't rest until I get at least 75%-80% close because a 100% might not be realistic. A 100% would be icing on the cake and having Christmas, Easter and my B-day fall all on the same day.

My comfort zone in the past, hydration-wise, was always between 61% - 63%, although I used a 66% hydro with the All Trumps. I think that if I can get the temps dialed in correctly for a 62% or 63% hydro dough, with the correct amount of oil and sugar, I should be able to get close to the Avellino, Marcello's and most other common NY-style doughs.

With that said, I still have a 64% hydro dough ball in the fridge and might as well bake that one off tonight and see if there's any changes. I also might raise the temp by 5-10 degrees...

More later...

The recipe that you are calling mine is a very simple Lehmann recipe I picked up at one of his week long seminars...I added a bit more salt just for my taste.  I have no emotional ties to that recipe, and that's why I picked it...I was less interested in the formula, and more interested in how differing balling patterns can affect the final output....my thinking was, that if I could show that balling dough later could really have a good effect on product, then it should work for most anyone's favorite dough...I still prefer a 62% hydrated dough made with 33% poolish for my favorite, but I'm starting to learn the why's of what makes it good to me.  So, go for it, and come up with something sensational!!!

John

[scott123]

For his own homemade NY-style pies he uses J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's recipe. I thought you'd get a kick out of that one.

6% oil, a 12 to 15 minute bake time and a cooked sauce. No wonder why Mr. Kover can't recognize a good pizza when it's right in front of him.

[Essen1]

6% oil, a 12 to 15 minute bake time and a cooked sauce. No wonder why Mr. Kover can't recognize a good pizza when it's right in front of him.

After reading the interview I realized why he favors Arinell's over Marcello's & Avellino. He lives only a couple of blocks away and it's his go-to spot. To each their own, I guess.

[Essen1]

Second 64% hydro dough from last night.

Had some leftover toppings from the night before and threw 'em on.

Raised the temp to 590°F and it came out just a tad better than the previous one. But still nowhere near of what I have in mind. Over the weekend I'll try a slightly different formula with a lower hydration, perhaps lower oil amount and higher heat.

Some pics...

[scott123]

Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?    That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Now it looks like you might be having boilover issues- but I think that's a topping issue or cheese/rim proximity thing.  Where the oil from the pizza hasn't boiled over on the rim, the effect is stunning- maybe not a John's level of color, but certainly something Ray-ish.

So what's bugging you? Is it the flop?  Don't forget, in order to get Avellino's signature creamy crumb and crispy exterior, you've got to bake the pizza to the point you have here, let it sit and cool a few minutes, then return it to the plate for a minute. That should crisp up the bottom (and give it a little bit more char) while leaving the moist crumb intact. Obviously you don't have to do this, but if you want crispy creamy, I don't think any hydration is going to give it to you straight out of the oven.

Another thing to consider is toppings.  You've been doing this a long time and probably have a strong preference for a particular quantity of toppings, and I think many people across the nation feel similarly, but, it's good to keep in mind that toppings contain water and that, as discussed earlier, water takes a lot of energy to heat, so a lot of toppings will effect the way a pizza bakes.  This is a big reason why pizzerias in NY and New Haven go so lightly with the toppings- that if you're a bit heavy handed, the crust can suffer. You're making pizza pretty frequently these days, so doing lots of plain pies would get old really quickly, but, just like the re-heat is a big part of the Avellino experience, so is the plain pie (and toppings on the re-heat, if desired).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying 'Do a re-heat' or 'Nix the toppings.'  What am saying is that these two approaches might take you in a more Avellino direction.  At this point, your ideal pie may have Avellino-ish qualities, but it might not be a perfect clone. You're destined to make something better than Avellino.

[fazzari]

Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?    That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Mike
I agree whole heartedly with Scott, that crust looks incredible!!!!

John

[Essen1]

Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?    That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Now it looks like you might be having boilover issues- but I think that's a topping issue or cheese/rim proximity thing.  Where the oil from the pizza hasn't boiled over on the rim, the effect is stunning- maybe not a John's level of color, but certainly something Ray-ish.

So what's bugging you? Is it the flop?  Don't forget, in order to get Avellino's signature creamy crumb and crispy exterior, you've got to bake the pizza to the point you have here, let it sit and cool a few minutes, then return it to the plate for a minute. That should crisp up the bottom (and give it a little bit more char) while leaving the moist crumb intact. Obviously you don't have to do this, but if you want crispy creamy, I don't think any hydration is going to give it to you straight out of the oven.

Another thing to consider is toppings.  You've been doing this a long time and probably have a strong preference for a particular quantity of toppings, and I think many people across the nation feel similarly, but, it's good to keep in mind that toppings contain water and that, as discussed earlier, water takes a lot of energy to heat, so a lot of toppings will effect the way a pizza bakes.  This is a big reason why pizzerias in NY and New Haven go so lightly with the toppings- that if you're a bit heavy handed, the crust can suffer. You're making pizza pretty frequently these days, so doing lots of plain pies would get old really quickly, but, just like the re-heat is a big part of the Avellino experience, so is the plain pie (and toppings on the re-heat, if desired).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying 'Do a re-heat' or 'Nix the toppings.'  What am saying is that these two approaches might take you in a more Avellino direction.  At this point, your ideal pie may have Avellino-ish qualities, but it might not be a perfect clone. You're destined to make something better than Avellino.

Scotty,

Yes...just a tad. 

I know I was heavy handed on the toppings but I wasn't really too concerned about them. I simply threw what leftovers I had in the fridge on the pie and that was that.

I'm aware that NY-style pies or slices are not that loaded. And sometimes less is more. 

What was bugging me was the lack of crust coloration and the major gum line the pie had. It's not really visible in the pics but it almost felt like being undercooked. I'm writing this on off as another mediocre attempt. Sounds snobbish, I know, but it wasn't one of my better pies.

Either way, that pie's history. However, I'd like to get your and other members' opinion on my next post.


John,

Thanks very much. Wasn't my best effort, though.