Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 107077 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #820 on: December 30, 2011, 11:46:27 PM »
I have been giving this NY-style thing quite a lot of thought lately and have come to some thoughts of why it it's tough for a regular home pizzamaker to achieve professional results and would love some input from fellow members on here about my theories. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a tall order, given the lack of professional equipment and resources to match any given professional pizza that's out there.

In this case, the famous NY street slice.

After having several conversations with NY-style pizzeria operators here in S.F. (i.e. Marcello's, Armando, Avellino), after watching countless videos, especially the Luigi DDD video, and of course making numerous pies a few things I think really stand out:

  • 1. Bake time

All of those guys I've spoken with mentioned a bake time in the double digits, mostly somewhere between 10-15 minutes, depending on size and toppings.

  • 2. Baking temp

Everybody I've spoken with have told me they run their ovens around 525°F – 550°F. That included Baker's Pride, Rotoflex and Blodgett ovens

  • 3. Hydration

58% -60% were the most prominent values given, with an amount of oil somewhere between 2% - 3%, in addition to the water.

  • 4. Mixing/Kneading time

10 – 12 minutes, sometimes up to 15 minutes depending on how the dough felt (Hobart & Globe were the two brand names I remember)

I don't know how accurate all these numbers are, but given the fact that all of them were almost identical/consistent with each other, I'm thinking that this might be the standard.

Here are my thoughts on those subjects above.

Bake time.
Well, everybody on here knows that a home oven can't hold a candle to a commercial pizza oven, given the thick hearth they have, the low-ceiling baking chambers, superior insulation, ventilation and what not. Some ovens feature hearths up to 2” thick, perhaps fitted with steel plates the same thickness (Marcello's) and heat coming most likely from different directions due to better heat distribution, especially a Rotoflex. A home oven is no match for this.

What to do? I have tried several different stones, from a flimsy, thin stone which cracked after the second use to a cordierite from AM, an Old Stone, a Fibrament, a kiln shelf which I still use and a steel plate.

The kiln shelf, and also most recently the steel plate, have yielded the best results although at completely different temperatures. I can't use the same dough, though, at the same temperature using the kiln and the steel plate.

The steel would just turn it into a black disc while the kiln delivered a total different outcome, which means I'd have to adjust the dough in order to get the same results on a steel plate at lower temps compared to the kiln shelf, which also means...inadvertently...that Luc's (Marcello's) words and advice are spot on when she said to  “...tailor your dough to your oven and not the other way around.” Now I know what she meant.

Baking temps. Okay, make your favorite dough recipe, use your favorite hearth and bake it at 525° to 550°F when you have been using a higher temperature or even a lower one. Two things will happen...it will either be too charred or the crust will be under-baked. That's my prediction. Been there, done that. The result: Frustration.

However, when you know how your hearth performs at certain temps, and you have a solid dough formula and know how that performs then you're pretty much set, right? Great. Now try that exact same dough at the exact same temp on a different hearth or in a different home oven. I bet a whole year's salary that it won't turn out the same way. That's one part of the challenge of generating a NY-style pie at home.

Hydration.
We've heard all those descriptions of the perfect NY-style pie...”pillowy”, “tender crust”, “biting into a cloud”, “foldable yet airy”, “light as a feather”, “creamy, crunchy, chewy”, etc.

What does that mean and how does it equate to hydration? I think we first have to look at the two key components...flour and water. Then, as a third, comes oil. And the way and time frame it took to mix and put the dough together. But more on that later.

Like Peter, Scott R and Scott123 have pointed out over time here, water takes longer to evaporate in a dough. This reminds me of two things...

Luc of Marcello's told me recently that one key to a good NY-style crust is to “bake out” the dough as much as possible without compromising it. I have yet to determine what that exactly means. Chad Robertson gives basically the same advice in his Tartine book, which makes sense given the very high hydration of the Tartine dough, the high heat that's involved and the extended bake time of up to 45 minutes.

But his instructions can't really be applied to a NY-style pizza, although the train of thought might be the same. So how does all that translate to a pizza dough with a 58, 60 or 63 percent hydration? Lower heat and extended bake times (10-15 mins)? Those numbers are for commercial ovens.

At home, they might correlate to numbers between 5-8 mins, for certain hearths. But here's another thought...we all know the effects oil has on a dough. It makes it softer, more pliable, might contribute to oven spring, etc. What I have yet to see is what the oil's temperature during baking does to the dough and how it effects and compares to the water. Oil can get a lot hotter than water without evaporating at the rate water does, if at all. So what effect has oil temperature on a NY-style pizza dough during the  bake?

Mixing/Kneading time.
10-15 mins in a professional Horbart, for example. Translate that to a lower-hydration dough kneading in a home mixer, such as the KA or Cuisinart, and it would be overkill, I would think. Especially when a high-gluten flour is used, such as KASL, All Trumps or Pendleton's Power Flour.

The dough would probably end up with a gluten matrix that even a modern tennis net can't match. Not good. My recent pondering and reflection on such matters led me to believe that a kneading time of 4 mins, not counting the minute or two it takes to incorporate all the ingredients, if a 24 hr overnight cold-rise is used, and 6 mins for a same-day dough that's made very early in the morning, say between 6 & 8 am. Not to mention the increased yeast amount for a one-day dough.

With all that said, are home pizzamakers facing an insurmountable & uphill battle when it comes to replicating or even designing a dough that rivals those professional ones? My hopes are on the answer 'No' but it will yet to be seen how far one can take it. Especially with a regular, generic electric oven.

The above thoughts, theories and statements are just that...basically a collection of information and my own ponderings. And I'm not a chemist nor a physicist so anyone with better knowledge feel free to chime in and correct/advise or comment.

It will be, as usual, very much appreciated.
Mike

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #821 on: December 31, 2011, 12:15:26 AM »
Your most recent pictures show something above the majority of your questions. 

What happened to your old tag line about not becoming someones priority or something?

Other than having your camera somehow overblowing the white in the pictures,  I think you could set up a slice tent outside of Allevios or Aeriolas or what ever your preference is and kick their arse.

I prefer a slightly better than blonde rim.  You and Scott123 can wage war about what is appropriate for NY style, but a blonde rim just says "Hello i am here"  A slightly more done rim says "Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, forgot about it."

I would enjoy any of your pizzas, bro, I am sure.  :chef:
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Online norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #822 on: December 31, 2011, 08:37:02 AM »
Mike,

Somewhat like you do, I have watched different pizzerias baking their pies (NY style) and what I took from it was they are baked longer than what members here on the forum are baking pies in their home ovens. 

I do have an advantage of baking in a deck oven and comparing how the deck oven bakes compares to my home oven.  My home oven is really anemic, and only goes a little over 500 degrees F.  Really I don’t have much of any conclusions, but the only thing I noticed was pies baked in my home oven are a little dryer and the bake times are longer.  I can still get oven spring in my anemic home oven, so it leads me to think that no matter the recipe or formula it must have something to do how the dough is mixed or handled, or other variables.  I also have a Hobart to fool around with and my basic Kitchen Aid mixer.  Both can make good doughs, but the Hobart mixes much faster, even if kept on speed 1.  I have also played around with soapstone and gave Steve soapstone to try in his home oven, which gets higher in temperature than my home oven.  We both didn’t like the results of soapstone. From watching how the Hobart mixes and seeing what the final dough looks like, I can get somewhat the same looks in my dough from my Kitchen Aid and the doughs perform about the same in the deck oven.  I have mixed very long in my Kitchen Aid and from those limited results, it doesn’t seem like it matters a lot, as long as the dough doesn’t get too tight.  If it does, it seems to work okay to just rest the dough until the gluten relaxes some, then ball.  I would think, from all the experiments I have done, I would know more about dough than I really do, but dough, mixing times, formulation, reballing, ovens, and so many other variables are always challenging and not easy to figure out, for most doughs.  I have mixed some very high hydrations doughs, down to lower hydrations dough at home in the Kitchen Aid.  There are so many mysteries I still can’t figure out about dough or baking the dough into pizzas.  I have also been lucky enough to watch how my friend Steve’s WFO bakes at different temperatures and different formulations.  I don’t think I ever will be able to understand all what goes into making the best pizza I can, but all of it is intriguing to me.  Hydrations and addition of oils is also intriguing.  I know you and I both tried pies in the Luigi’s thread and that dough didn’t have any oil in the formulations.  Another mix to add.  I have also tried really long mix times with the Mack’s dough which is lower in hydration, but does contain a decent amount of oil.  Those pies would have had good oven spring, if the dough wasn’t pressed a lot. 

Like Gene, I would eat any of your pizzas  ;D and look forward to see what you find out in your experiments and what other members have to contribute to your thread in their ideas about everything.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #823 on: December 31, 2011, 07:56:02 PM »
Stopped by at Avellino's today and ordered two slices. One pepperoni and one mushroom/sausage.

While I was waiting, I watched a new batch of dough coming out of the backroom and saw how they ball the dough up. It looked very much like a low-hydration dough, maybe 58% but no more than 60%. I don't know if they just made the dough or if it was a dough that's been proofing overnight.

Either way, the guys working the dough placed the dough balls into dough boxes and stacked the boxes right next to the prepping table but across from the oven. I couldn't hang around much longer but I got one tidbit of info out of the guy who handed me my slices. I told him that I'm trying to recreate a NY-style dough at home and simply asked him what kind of flour they use. He said they use a mix of two flours....Pendleton Power flour and it's cousin...Pendleton Mondako.

I almost dropped my slices when I heard that. But he said he didn't know much more because he only works the counter and only handles dough sporadically.

So, Power & Mondako it is at Avellino. Who woulda thunk it.  ???

Anyway, I decided instead of biting into the scorching hot slices to let them cool down and take them on the short ride across the Golden Gate and enjoy them at home. First off, the crust is paper thin. I also peeled back a little bit of the layer of cheese and it was also very thin so I guess they don't use a whole lot of it.

I'm usually not a big fan of warm or even cold pizza but I let one slice cool down significantly just to get a better taste of the crust. I do believe it is a low-hydration dough but with a fair amount of oil in it, maybe 2.5% or 3%. I've had slices in the past where when cold they became cracker-like. This was still on the soft side but lost a bit of it's crunch that is there when they come out of the oven.

Took some pics...

« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 08:05:30 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #824 on: December 31, 2011, 07:57:15 PM »
Norma and Jet_Deck,

Thanks. But as we all know, looks can be deceiving at times and in the case of my last pies, they were.  :)

Mike

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #825 on: December 31, 2011, 08:05:39 PM »
 I've got to agree with Scott, a real NY pie is minimalist, really just a smear of sauce and a very modest amount of cheese. Toppings really aren't associated with the classic NY slice, and when you start to add them the pie just isn't the same.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #826 on: December 31, 2011, 08:07:11 PM »
I've got to agree with Scott, a real NY pie is minimalist, really just a smear of sauce and a very modest amount of cheese. Toppings really aren't associated with the classic NY slice, and when you start to add them the pie just isn't the same.

DMC,

I know.

I just threw what I had of my leftovers on the pie and that was basically it. Next time will be different.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #827 on: December 31, 2011, 10:27:33 PM »
I just looked at the fact sheet from Pendleton Mills and the values given for the Power flour are

Protein 13.5%    Ash   0.57   Absorption   65%

and for the Mondako the values are

Protein 11.9%    Ash   0.53    Absorption   62%

The values of the Mondako look more like a bread flour. Since I still have some of the ConAgra BF here I might mix up a 65/35 ratio of both flours, with a 3% oil value and a 60% hydration.

However, I don't know at what ratio Avellino mixes its flours so I could be over-shooting or under-shooting their ratio with my 65/35 approach. Will mix up the dough tonight and report back tomorrow after a 24 hr ferment.

Fact sheet's here: http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf


Happy New Year everybody!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 10:31:43 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #828 on: January 01, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »
Scotty already posted that a blend of the two would be ideal....   I am thinking that Scotty is a NY pizza robot, or something. :-D :chef: :pizza:
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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #829 on: January 01, 2012, 01:03:01 AM »
I think I mentioned it twice, but, hey, who's counting?  ;D

Seriously, though, those are some of the thinnest slices I've ever seen. I like a thin crust, but that's a little extreme. With that kind of thickness factor, a 10+ minute bake would produce a cracker crust, especially if you felt like the dough looked a little low on the hydration spectrum.

How was the taste?  Did it stack up?  When I eat really thin slices, I feel a little cheated, like somehow the pizzeria is too cheap to give me enough crust.  I know this isn't the case, but on some level, it feels that way.

A 50/50 blend will put you right in what I consider the 'sweet spot' for NY style protein levels - 12.7%. The biggest advantage is that is gives you a huge kneading window- you can underknead a bit or overknead a bit and the dough won't suffer like a 14% flour will and get tough.

Happy New Year!


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #830 on: January 01, 2012, 01:53:20 AM »
I think I mentioned it twice, but, hey, who's counting?  ;D

Seriously, though, those are some of the thinnest slices I've ever seen. I like a thin crust, but that's a little extreme. With that kind of thickness factor, a 10+ minute bake would produce a cracker crust, especially if you felt like the dough looked a little low on the hydration spectrum.

How was the taste?  Did it stack up?  When I eat really thin slices, I feel a little cheated, like somehow the pizzeria is too cheap to give me enough crust.  I know this isn't the case, but on some level, it feels that way.

A 50/50 blend will put you right in what I consider the 'sweet spot' for NY style protein levels - 12.7%. The biggest advantage is that is gives you a huge kneading window- you can underknead a bit or overknead a bit and the dough won't suffer like a 14% flour will and get tough.

Happy New Year!

Scotty,

Happy New Year!

I didn't know you suggested Mondako and the Power flour as a combo before.

Either way, the slices were perfectly balanced...cheese, sauce and crust. They had the same characteristics as the ones I had before.

The taste was just as great as the first slice I had. I can't make it there that often but when I do I always wonder how they do it. Yes, it did stack up.

Scotty, Avellino produces an amazingly well-balanced NY-style pizza, despite what Mr. Kover says or what Arinell's puts out. Much like Marcello's but their dough is a bit different from Avellino's. Lighter, but just as good.

Off to a party...

Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #831 on: January 01, 2012, 07:28:42 AM »
Scotty,

Happy New Year!

I didn't know you suggested Mondako and the Power flour as a combo before.


Mike,

This post is where Scott mentioned using 50/50 Power Flour and Mondako Flour to me at Reply 555 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg158138.html#msg158138   I did start mixing a preferment with  combinations of Power Flour and Mondako flour on Friday for the preferment Lehmann dough to be tried on Tuesday.  These are the other two posts that Scott mentioned the combinations of the Power Flour and Mondako Flour, the one post being on your thread at Reply 749 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg157771.html#msg157771 and the other post at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.msg157136.html#msg157136

Norma
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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #832 on: January 01, 2012, 01:31:35 PM »
Mikey, maybe it's the angle of the photos, but I could have sworn that the crust looked thinner than the last few batches of photos you've taken. It's good to hear that the slices are still on par with what you've had there before.

As I look at the photos again, one thing caught my eye that they are doing a bit differently.

Do you see the darker area right at the end of the underrim?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=47576;image

That wasn't there before

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=39900;image

That kind of pinched, darker rim area can be a result of an inexperienced hand stretcher who's pressing down on the rim aggressively, but 99% of the time, it's indicative of sheeter use. Either they've gone the sheeter route recently or, perhaps they were doing a combo sheet and hand stretch and have recently dialed the sheet thickness down to facilitate less hand stretching. Either way, I'm not ecstatic about it.  Sheeters are shortcuts that no self respecting NY style pizzeria would ever go near, regardless of the volume required from them.

Don't get me wrong, Avellino's still looks like an amazing slice of pizza and well worth the effort of recreating, but the extra crunchy pinched edge may not be something you want to emulate.

Mike, from all your descriptions, I'm guessing that they don't show pizzas actually being stretched/made, do they?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #833 on: January 01, 2012, 02:49:22 PM »
Mike,

This post is where Scott mentioned using 50/50 Power Flour and Mondako Flour to me at Reply 555 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg158138.html#msg158138   I did start mixing a preferment with  combinations of Power Flour and Mondako flour on Friday for the preferment Lehmann dough to be tried on Tuesday.  These are the other two posts that Scott mentioned the combinations of the Power Flour and Mondako Flour, the one post being on your thread at Reply 749 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg157771.html#msg157771 and the other post at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.msg157136.html#msg157136

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for pointing that out. I must have missed Scotty's refrence to the Mondako. My bad, Scotty!
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #834 on: January 01, 2012, 02:54:17 PM »
Mikey, maybe it's the angle of the photos, but I could have sworn that the crust looked thinner than the last few batches of photos you've taken. It's good to hear that the slices are still on par with what you've had there before.

As I look at the photos again, one thing caught my eye that they are doing a bit differently.

Do you see the darker area right at the end of the underrim?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=47576;image

That wasn't there before

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=39900;image

That kind of pinched, darker rim area can be a result of an inexperienced hand stretcher who's pressing down on the rim aggressively, but 99% of the time, it's indicative of sheeter use. Either they've gone the sheeter route recently or, perhaps they were doing a combo sheet and hand stretch and have recently dialed the sheet thickness down to facilitate less hand stretching. Either way, I'm not ecstatic about it.  Sheeters are shortcuts that no self respecting NY style pizzeria would ever go near, regardless of the volume required from them.

Don't get me wrong, Avellino's still looks like an amazing slice of pizza and well worth the effort of recreating, but the extra crunchy pinched edge may not be something you want to emulate.

Mike, from all your descriptions, I'm guessing that they don't show pizzas actually being stretched/made, do they?

Scotty,

They hand-stretch the dough.

I saw that yesterday when they made a plain cheese pie. It was stretched by the same guy who answered my question about the flour. Maybe he isn't that experienced because the main guy, who's always there, was in the back room and came out moments later with a batch of dough and then started balling them up, together with third employee.

Maybe they use the thin crusts only for slices because if someone orders a full-size pie with additional toppings I don't think it'll hold up.

Here's another pic of an Avellino sausage slice...looks a little bit thicker to me but could be the angle. Same rim, though. Were bit wider before, is it it just me?
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #835 on: January 01, 2012, 03:11:27 PM »
Mike, I really can't tell if it's wider or not. I have talked previously about how I felt like their slice pie could be a bit bigger than 18"- if that is the case, I highly doubt that they're selling larger than 18" made to order pies.  I've never seen this done before, but, it's possible, because of the delicate nature of the slice preventing it from holding toppings well, perhaps they're making one size of dough ball, but stretching it further (possibly sheeting), for slice pies, but not stretching quite as far for made to order to increase the thickness factor and topping holding capabilities.

For future reference, a dollar in the shot can be helpful for perspective. Or, if you're Chau, a ten dollar bill  :P

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #836 on: January 02, 2012, 09:38:50 PM »
Scotty,

I can assure you, there's no use of a sheeter at Avellino's. It's just all hand-stretching.  :)

============

Anyway, I made three pies last evening, one going to a family member, the other to a buddy of mine and one for myself.

Family member's was pie topped, upon request, with mushrooms, olives and fresh basil. Second one was topped with pepperoni, meatballs, mushrooms and a basil pesto Italian sausage. Mine was just mushrooms and meatballs.

I made two different dough's, though. One with a 59% hydro value and 3% oil and the other with a 60% hydro value and 2.5% oil.

The formulas were as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (3%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (166.05%):
Single Ball:
658.21 g  |  23.22 oz | 1.45 lbs
388.34 g  |  13.7 oz | 0.86 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
11.52 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
19.75 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.39 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
13.16 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.3 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1092.95 g | 38.55 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = 0.07575
546.48 g | 19.28 oz | 1.2 lbs


Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2.5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (166.55%):
Single Ball:
656.23 g  |  23.15 oz | 1.45 lbs
393.74 g  |  13.89 oz | 0.87 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
11.48 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
16.41 g | 0.58 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.65 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
13.12 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1092.95 g | 38.55 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = 0.07575
546.48 g | 19.28 oz | 1.2 lbs


I also used a 65/35 blend of Power flour and ConAgra's Harvest Bread flour for those two.

I added water, sugar, yeast and oil to the mixer's bowl and let it sit until the yeast started foaming. Then I added the flour, then the salt and mix it until everything was incorporated. Rest for 15 mins. Then a total knead time of 5 mins followed. Took the dough out and immediately balled it up, brushed it very lightly with oil, covered it with plastic wrap and gave it a 24 hr cold rise. The pics you see are taken right before the doughs go into the fridge and about 4 hours before baking.

Once baking time approached, I took two dough balls out of the fridge, one 59% and one 60%, and allowed them to come up to room temp while the oven was heating up. They sat on the counter for about 30 mins before I opened and shaped them into skins. Both doughs handled amazingly well, were very easy to open and had a satiny feel to them. Used 8oz of sauce, a mix between 6in1s and Cirio whole tomatoes, and 11oz of cheese (whole milk part skim & low-moisture part skim mozza from Trader Joe's). Unfortunately, I didn't get to take any pics of the 60% hydro pie because it was a fast pick-up but I have another one in the fridge which will be turned into a plain cheese pie tonight.

Both were baked at the same temp of 565°F for five minutes, then taken out for about 2 mins before being placed under the broiler for 45 secs.

The feedback I got ranged from "Divine" (family member) to "Outstanding" (friend). I know, I know...people say friends and family are never really critical as to not hurt ones feelings but I made it clear to them that I want brutal honesty. They're not going to hurt my feelings with constructive criticism but instead help me get better at things through their honest feedback. If someone says my pies are crap then I will look at the things why he/she feels they are crap. Simple as that.

Anyway, I did like the outcome but I think the oil value is a bit too high so I've made adjustments for my next formula...63% hydro and 1.75% oil.

Some pics...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:55:19 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #837 on: January 02, 2012, 09:56:33 PM »
Sorry...just saw this and corrected it.

I had the same upskirt pic posted twice from the same pizza.  :-[
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #838 on: August 24, 2012, 02:49:55 PM »
So it's been quite awhile since I have tooled around with my NY-style dough formulations but recently I have started picking things up again in the pizza-making department.

I have made pizzas during my hiatus but not really for myself or took on any other pizza experiments. The pies I have made in the last 9 months were mostly for friends and family members upon their request. However, over the course of the last four weeks or so I gave the NY-style more thought again.

When making pies for friends and family I always asked for honest feedback. The one I have heard the most was "too chewy". And that was probably in regards to the Pendleton Power flour I used combined with too much kneading for a same day dough. I haven't done a longer fermentation at all these past few months. All pizzas were made with same day doughs. So I kept that same-day thing going but made a few changes to the dough by basically "diluting" the PPF with AP flour at a 70/30 ratio, lowered the kneading time from 8 minutes to 6 but also allowed the dough to counter-rise for a more extended period of time. The changes worked but the crusts came out still a bit too tough and chewy so I dropped the salt value as well as raising the oil level a bit.

Yesterday I made another pie with the adjusted formula and I am extremely happy with the outcome. Granted, the crust lacked in flavor but that is easily resolved by giving the dough a 24hr cold-rise. However, the structure of the crust was mind-blowing...very close to the real deal. Or as close as one can get using a home oven and mixer. The only other thing there is to try for me is the 24hr cold-ferment with the same formula just to see if my preliminary results hold up.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.8%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (169.1%):
288.26 g  |  10.17 oz | 0.64 lbs
181.6 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.86 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
5.19 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
5.77 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
5.77 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
487.44 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.07575

(For the ease of measuring the flour I used 200gr PPF and 88gr organic AP flour)

This pie was baked on my kiln shelf at 575°F stone temp, no broiler, for 5 minutes. The cheese was TJ's low-moisture whole milk mozzarella blended with a little shaved & aged Parmesan cheese.

If the 24hr cold-rise will deliver the same results, I think I can die a happy man.  ;D

Well, I guess the only other thing would be to test the dough on my 18" steel plate.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #839 on: August 24, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
wow, you did a get a pretty crazy crumb structure through the entire slice. Looks delicious!


 

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