Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Essen1]

The only store that sells some items for pottery is our local hardware store, unfortunately.

I'm sure, though, that there is something like that in San Fran here. Why?

[Matthew]

The only store that sells some items for pottery is our local hardware store, unfortunately.

I'm sure, though, that there is something like that in San Fran here. Why?

That's the best place to buy corderite  & they can cut it down to any size you need. There is a place not to far from me that I go to. I just had a 3/4" stone made for my pizza oven.  They have a great deal on 16" round corderite stones (kiln shelves) for $21. 

[Essen1]

Matt,

The local hardware store, if I'm not mistaken, also sells stuff for fireplaces. I'll check it out this weekend and let you know what they got.

Thanks for the tip, bro! Much appreciated.

[Jet_deck]

What sauce and cheese  formulation  are you using. ?

[Essen1]

What sauce and cheese  formulation  are you using. ?

6 in 1's for the sauce. Add a little salt and a little sugar, pulse a stick blender through a couple of times, done.

For the cheese it's a whole-milk mozza and part-skim mozza blend.

[scott123]

Here are two places in the SF area that carry kiln shelves

http://www.ceramicssf.com/
http://leslieceramics.com/

Axner has a 16" shelf

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-16x16x34square.aspx

Are you absolutely certain that your oven can't handle 17 inches?  Even if the stone is touching the door, as long as the door closes, you're good. Even if your oven can take 16.5", I'd buy a 17 inch stone and cut a half inch off it.  Every fraction of an inch counts.

[Essen1]

Here are two places in the SF area that carry kiln shelves

http://www.ceramicssf.com/
http://leslieceramics.com/

Axner has a 16" shelf

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-16x16x34square.aspx

Are you absolutely certain that your oven can't handle 17 inches?  Even if the stone is touching the door, as long as the door closes, you're good. Even if your oven can take 16.5", I'd buy a 17 inch stone and cut a half inch off it.  Every fraction of an inch counts.

Scott,

I'll measure again.

I was just on CeramicsSF shortly before you posted. It's not that far from my work actually. They have an 17x17x5/8 shelf for   $31.55.

From CeramicsSF:

"They are composed of 50% cordierite and 35% mullite, with lesser amounts of corundum and other combined mineralogical forms.  These shelves posses a remarkably high resistance to thermal shock."

I have to head down to that area in SF anyway next week to a Restaurant supply and will stop by at Ceramics.


Matt & Scott,

Thanks for pointers.

[Essen1]

What sauce and cheese  formulation  are you using. ?

Jet_deck,

Looking at your other posts it seems you follow a pattern, and they are mainly one-liners.

Once you get your info, you keep forgetting to say "Thank you". It's a shame because we all have manners on here.

[Matthew]

Scott,

I'll measure again.

I was just on CeramicsSF shortly before you posted. It's not that far from my work actually. They have an 17x17x5/8 shelf for   $31.55.

From CeramicsSF:

"They are composed of 50% cordierite and 35% mullite, with lesser amounts of corundum and other combined mineralogical forms.  These shelves posses a remarkably high resistance to thermal shock."

I have to head down to that area in SF anyway next week to a Restaurant supply and will stop by at Ceramics.


Matt & Scott,

Thanks for pointers.

That's it, I have the exact same thing in 3/4".  I also have a couple of 16" round that are only 1/2" thick but are 95% corderite.

Matt

[Jet_deck]

Looking at your other posts it seems you follow a pattern, and they are mainly one-liners.

Not True

Once you get your info, you keep forgetting to say "Thank you". It's a shame because we all have manners on here.

I resolve to do a better job of saying "Thank You"

Your "Thank You" was going to be a picture of your recipe cooked with a little bit more top heat than you can accomplish in your home oven, just for kicks and grins.  I believe that BF can take 625*, if I remember correctly.

Thank you for the info on the cheese mix.

[Essen1]

Jet_deck,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not thin-skinned and can only speak for myself but I was raised in a way that when I ask for something and get it, no matter what it is, a quick "Thank you" is always appreciated by the other party.

Either way, you're welcome and it will be interesting to see how the pies turn out in your oven. Just don't burn them 

[Essen1]

That's it, I have the exact same thing in 3/4".  I also have a couple of 16" round that are only 1/2" thick but are 95% corderite.

Matt

Matt,

I measured the oven's racks again and a 17"x17"x5/8" stone would fit perfectly. It will have enough space toward the door, too...about an inch.

[Matthew]

Matt,

I measured the oven's racks again and a 17"x17"x5/8" stone would fit perfectly. It will have enough space toward the door, too...about an inch.

Perfect, Let me know what you think.  I'm pretty sure you'll be very pleased with the results.  If I was you, I would have him cut down the 18 x 18 x 1 to 17".  The 1/2" thick round stone that I have works really good because it's 95% corderite, my shelf on the other hand is corderite/alumina & is 3/4" thick. I'm not sure on how well it would perform if it was any thinner.  I think that it's well worth the money to got from 5/8" to 1".

Matt

[Essen1]

Perfect, Let me know what you think.  I'm pretty sure you'll be very pleased with the results.  If I was you, I would have him cut down the 18 x 18 x 1 to 17".  The 1/2" thick round stone that I have works really good because it's 95% corderite, my shelf on the other hand is corderite/alumina & is 3/4" thick. I'm not sure on how well it would perform if it was any thinner.  I think that it's well worth the money to got from 5/8" to 1".

Matt

Matt,

I'm gonna check out our local hardware store tomorrow and see what they got. They might have some cordierite or perhaps some other stones.

But 17"x17"x1" sounds good.

Do you know what the heat up times are for a 1" stone? Right now it takes about 1 hour for the cordierite I have right now to bring it up to about 600°F.

It's less than an inch thick, though. I'm guessing maybe 90 mins for a 1" stone?

[scott123]

In the land of the unmodified home oven, conductivity is king. When compared to options such as fibrament, quarry tiles and firebrick, pure cordierite stones, at about 3.0 W/m-K, are vastly superior.  As you add other ingredients, though, that conductivity increases. Mullite ranges from 4 to 6 W/m-K, depending on the temperature it's at, and corundum (aka, aluminum oxide/alumina) is somewhere in the 18 to 30 W/m-K realm.  Both of these ingredients will push the stone above cordierite's realm of conductivity- and that's good. Very good. Greater conductivity = faster preheat = shorter baking times at lower temps.  A cordierite/mullite/corundum stone will be better than a pure cordierite one.

Matt, I'm not sure why your hybrid stone performs worse than your 95% cordierite one. The increased conductivity and the greater thickness should give it a substantial edge. The only problem I could see you having is scorching/burning on the bottom when the same temperature/time is used.

Mike, in theory, the CeramicsSF stones could be <1% corundum, but I'm still getting a really good vibe from them.  At least, I'm amped about the 1" thick ones.  If you can reliably hit 600, then it's possible 5/8" might cut the mustard, but I've worked with enough 5/8" cordierite stones to want to avoid them like the plague.  It's just such a small amount of mass.

As far as the pre-heat goes... it really boils down to the quantity of the highly conductive corundum these stones contain.  My gut feeling is that a 1" cordierite/mullite/corundum stone probably won't take much longer to hit 600 than your stone does now (maybe an extra 15 minutes), but... because of the extra conductivity, you won't have to bake at 600.  With a preheat to 575 (or less), the pre-heat time will shrink, so at the end of the day, the CeramicsSF stone may not take longer to pre-heat than your current one.

I've cut a few stones in my life, so I understand how big of deal it is for me to recommend it, but I sincerely think your ideal scenario is the 18 x 18 x 1 cordierite/mullite/corundum CeramicsSF stone cut to 17.5 x 18 x 1 so the door just closes.

[Matthew]

I
Matt, I'm not sure why your hybrid stone performs worse than your 95% cordierite one. The increased conductivity and the greater thickness should give it a substantial edge. The only problem I could see you having is scorching/burning on the bottom when the same temperature/time is used.

Hi Scott,
It doesn't perform any worse; as a matter of fact, the guy that works at the store told me that my 1/2 will perform equally as good as the 3/4" because of its composition.  One thing that I did do to my stone was to coat the bottom with a water & sugar solution to darken it.  I believe that it was November who recommended doing this.

Matt

[Jet_deck]

Mike, I have completed the experiment with your dough formulation.  I put it under my 10stone post so it doesn't clog up your home oven version thread. Come see what happened!http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11402.msg119963.html#msg119963

[Essen1]

Scott & Matt,

I really appreciate the detailed and informed feedback on choosing the right stone. The main thing for me is that I wanted to go up in size because, frankly, I'm getting tired of 14" pies and feel that this size is somewhat limiting when it comes to NY-style pizza.

Anyway, I was happy with my cordierite for many years but it's time for an upgrade. I will check out CeramicsSF some time next week because I feel that they give me a better option than our local hardware joint. And if I can get a 1-inch composite stone with great conductivity, even better.

Thanks again, guys!

[Essen1]

Mike, I have completed the experiment with your dough formulation.  I put it under my 10stone post so it doesn't clog up your home oven version thread. Come see what happened!http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11402.msg119963.html#msg119963

Jet_deck,

No worries about clogging it up.

[Essen1]

After a little back & forth PM'ing with Peter the other day, he suggested to up the IDY to between .5 and .7% if I wanted to do a 7 hour room fermentation in order to get closer to the Marcello's crust. I chose the golden middle and went with .6% IDY.

I messed around a little with the Lehman Calculator and also ended up increasing the hydration to 65%. However, I was forced to make the dough on Friday night and let it rest in the fridge overnight. I took it out yesterday morning and let it proof at room temp until last night.

Here's the formula I ended up with:

Flour (100%):    430.53 g  |  15.19 oz | 0.95 lbs
Water (65%):    279.85 g  |  9.87 oz | 0.62 lbs
IDY (.6%):    2.58 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Oil (3.5%):    15.07 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.35 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.62 tsp | 0.54 tbsp

Total (172.1%):   740.95 g | 26.14 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:   370.47 g | 13.07 oz | 0.82 lbs


The crust was great and came very close to what Marcello's is producing, despite the longer fermentation times. It was light, airy, crunchy but had a soft, moist and bready interior. very nice overall. I think I'm headed in the right direction on this...