Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 139235 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #775 on: December 22, 2011, 12:52:46 PM »
Last night I started a little side project after I had a chat with a pizza operator (NY-style pizza), who revealed that they use Apple juice in their dough.

I don't really know what effect AJ can possibly have on the dough other than perhaps in taste but maybe it's the chemical make-up that works well with a dough. During the conversation an extremely low yeast amount also was revealed. With that said, I tried to recreate the dough at home, with Peter's assistance, since I have never used AJ in a dough before.

I put the dough together using the Power flour, mixed it for 4 minutes, rested it for 20 and then gave the mixer another spin for about 6 minutes on Speed 2. After it came out of the bowl, I shaped it into a large ball and let it rest on the counter for about 15 minutes before dividing it into two 577 gram dough balls.

The dough felt very smooth. I brushed it slightly with salad oil, covered the dough with plastic wrap and let it start to ferment at room temp (low 60's) overnight for 12 hrs before it went into the fridge this morning. The pics show the fermentation after 3 hours and then from this morning. Although the yeast amount was extremely low (0.27gr) it showed a nice rise.

So far, the dough looks encouraging for tonight's bake. More later...

Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #776 on: December 24, 2011, 09:07:23 AM »
Scotty,

I didn't use the Lehmann E-dough for the last two pies you see above. I used member Fazzari's (John) dough shown here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.msg163416.html#msg163416
... ...
The only thing I did changed, though, was the hydration. I increased it from 58% to 60%.

Ah, good, so you've already moved in a more NY direction. I use 3% oil personally, although I think it stems from the need to tenderize the 14% protein All Trumps.  Now that I'm in the 12.5% protein realm, I might drop the oil.  With your power flour, though, 3% should be fine.  You might still want to drop the sugar a bit more, but out of everything, I'm dying to see what 63-65% hydration does for you, now that you've learned to get the most out of the steel.

I love this flour. It's definitely one of the best I have worked with and I can really recommend this to any member on here, even though it's not bromated.

Based upon the results I've seen, I feel comfortable saying that Pendleton produces the best non bromated flour you can buy.  I've talked about this elsewhere, but I believe that their choice to avoid bromate as well as their commercial target demographic (as opposed to KAs retail focus) causes them to strive just a little harder than the bigger guys and this extra effort shows in superior flour.  The bromated outfits (like GM) tend to focus on their cash cows- their bromated flours, while I think they put less resources into the unbromated lines.  I haven't worked with too many pizzerias that avoid bromate, but, for the ones that I have consulted with, I've been pushing them towards Pendleton- and will continue to do so.

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #777 on: December 24, 2011, 09:11:38 AM »
Last night I started a little side project after I had a chat with a pizza operator (NY-style pizza), who revealed that they use Apple juice in their dough.

No offense, Mike, but, at this point, I think the pizzeria guys you're talking to (for the most part) should be taking advice from you, not the other way around  ;D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #778 on: December 24, 2011, 10:20:54 AM »
No offense, Mike, but, at this point, I think the pizzeria guys you're talking to (for the most part) should be taking advice from you, not the other way around  ;D

Scott, I know AJ isn't traditional but I can't see it making a big difference or hurting the crust.  If anything, depending on how much Mike used, it'll add a bit of sugar and acid to the dough.  If the sugar doesn't prove to be a problem, it should give him a bit more flavor.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #779 on: December 24, 2011, 02:38:47 PM »
Ah, good, so you've already moved in a more NY direction. I use 3% oil personally, although I think it stems from the need to tenderize the 14% protein All Trumps.  Now that I'm in the 12.5% protein realm, I might drop the oil.  With your power flour, though, 3% should be fine.  You might still want to drop the sugar a bit more, but out of everything, I'm dying to see what 63-65% hydration does for you, now that you've learned to get the most out of the steel.

Based upon the results I've seen, I feel comfortable saying that Pendleton produces the best non bromated flour you can buy.  I've talked about this elsewhere, but I believe that their choice to avoid bromate as well as their commercial target demographic (as opposed to KAs retail focus) causes them to strive just a little harder than the bigger guys and this extra effort shows in superior flour.  The bromated outfits (like GM) tend to focus on their cash cows- their bromated flours, while I think they put less resources into the unbromated lines.  I haven't worked with too many pizzerias that avoid bromate, but, for the ones that I have consulted with, I've been pushing them towards Pendleton- and will continue to do so.

Scotty,

I think I'll stay in the 2% - 2.5% range of oil when using the Pendleton flour. That range has given me great results so far. However, I'm not saying completely 'No' to your suggestion of 3% but the next dough is already in the making, using 64% hydration.

On the matter of using the steel plate, I think I have finally found the sweet spot, temperature-wise, of 565F, give or take a few. That temp has produced the best results so far, with the steel plate on the middle rack. Looks like I'm getting closer to those elusive Marcello's & Avellino crusts.

I've said it before...the Pendleton Power flour is honestly the best unbromated flour available and I've tried a bunch of flours, from KABF to Stone Buhr, to Giusto's Bread flour to Harvest King, etc. The PPF has delivered the most superior pizza doughs, imho, compared to the other flours. The only one that was better, however, was the All Trumps bromated version. I wouldn't the PPF, though, for applications such as the Tartine bread dough, for example.

Chau,

Regarding the Apple juice, I don't know why my pizza guy uses it in his doughs but I didn't detect any increased sugar levels nor acidity. It may have helped a bit with the browning but AJ is not what I would use on an ongoing basis. I'll have some pics to post later. Don't have them here with me at work...
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #780 on: December 24, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »
No offense, Mike, but, at this point, I think the pizzeria guys you're talking to (for the most part) should be taking advice from you, not the other way around  ;D

Thanks for the words of encouragement!  ;D
Mike

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Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #781 on: December 24, 2011, 03:11:13 PM »
Those pies look wonderful!

I admit that I haven't done much looking through the thread for the answer to this question, but:

Can you talk about your approach to mushroom preparation that you've used in the most recent pics you've posted?  They look perfect and with very low moisture...

Thanks!
Sean

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #782 on: December 24, 2011, 03:15:55 PM »
Those pies look wonderful!

I admit that I haven't done much looking through the thread for the answer to this question, but:

Can you talk about your approach to mushroom preparation that you've used in the most recent pics you've posted?  They look perfect and with very low moisture...

Thanks!
Sean

Sean,

They're fresh mushrooms, sliced thin. I never saute or nuke them before they go on a pie.

What I do is I slice them thin into a bowl or container, then let them sit on the counter for awhile, shuffling them once in awhile. After about 30 mins you can feel that they lost some of their moisture. That's pretty much it.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #783 on: December 24, 2011, 04:37:01 PM »
Scotty,

I think I'll stay in the 2% - 2.5% range of oil when using the Pendleton flour. That range has given me great results so far. However, I'm not saying completely 'No' to your suggestion of 3% but the next dough is already in the making, using 64% hydration.

On the matter of using the steel plate, I think I have finally found the sweet spot, temperature-wise, of 565F, give or take a few. That temp has produced the best results so far, with the steel plate on the middle rack. Looks like I'm getting closer to those elusive Marcello's & Avellino crusts.

Mikey,

Don't get too attached to a particular temperature.  Water takes a lot of heat to boil.  As you increase the hydration of a dough, you generally want to increase the temperature accordingly. If you don't increase the temp, the additional water will slow down the bake and you'll just end up with a longer bake time. If you're hitting 5 minute bakes at 565 w/ 60% hydration, then, at that same temp, you could be talking 7 minutes with a 64% hydration. To maintain that superior 5 minute oven spring/charring on the undercrust, I think you'll want to go to at least 580 with the 64% dough. Water is a very sluggish breadmaking participant- it can be quite the wet blanket  ;D

And I'm not really suggesting 3% oil.  Anything between 1 and 3% is fine. In the right setting, oil can provide some tenderness and oven spring, but more/less of it doesn't always guarantee superior results. Predicting what more (or less) water will do is not that difficult.  Predicting what more/less oil will do is a lot harder.


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #784 on: December 24, 2011, 06:11:41 PM »
Very interesting! Only once did I succeed with that way of dealing with fresh mushrooms but it was my favorite. Then I started to expediment with nuke and saute. Glad to hear your method and to see the end product. Thanks!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #785 on: December 24, 2011, 06:24:19 PM »
Very interesting! Only once did I succeed with that way of dealing with fresh mushrooms but it was my favorite. Then I started to expediment with nuke and saute. Glad to hear your method and to see the end product. Thanks!

Sean,

I've made some pies with only mushrooms on them and never had a major problem. Quite the contrary, actually. The juice released by the 'shrooms adds a nice subtle flavor to the gooey mess.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #786 on: December 24, 2011, 06:25:18 PM »
Pics from the last bake...

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #787 on: December 24, 2011, 06:28:34 PM »
Mikey,

Don't get too attached to a particular temperature.  Water takes a lot of heat to boil.  As you increase the hydration of a dough, you generally want to increase the temperature accordingly. If you don't increase the temp, the additional water will slow down the bake and you'll just end up with a longer bake time. If you're hitting 5 minute bakes at 565 w/ 60% hydration, then, at that same temp, you could be talking 7 minutes with a 64% hydration. To maintain that superior 5 minute oven spring/charring on the undercrust, I think you'll want to go to at least 580 with the 64% dough. Water is a very sluggish breadmaking participant- it can be quite the wet blanket  ;D

And I'm not really suggesting 3% oil.  Anything between 1 and 3% is fine. In the right setting, oil can provide some tenderness and oven spring, but more/less of it doesn't always guarantee superior results. Predicting what more (or less) water will do is not that difficult.  Predicting what more/less oil will do is a lot harder.

Scotty,

Thanks for the heads-up on the temp. I'll definitely adjust the temp to the higher hydration.

Regarding the oil, I think I'm going to start with 2% and either work my way up or down the scale.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #788 on: December 24, 2011, 07:07:52 PM »
Looks great, as usual, Mike.  Could you taste the apple juice in the finished crust?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #789 on: December 24, 2011, 07:49:56 PM »
Looks great, as usual, Mike.  Could you taste the apple juice in the finished crust?

Scotty,

No, not one bit.

My guess is, just like Chau was suggesting, that they may add the AJ for more acidity or sugar. But I don't think it has any major impact on the crust structure itself.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #790 on: December 24, 2011, 10:17:13 PM »
Mike,

Nice experiment with the apple juice!  Great looking pie!  :)

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #791 on: December 25, 2011, 12:49:18 AM »
Mike,

Nice experiment with the apple juice!  Great looking pie!  :)

Norma

Norma,

I wouldn't call it an experiment rather then a copy of a pro formula I recently received.

Obviously, I can't reveal the entire dough formula here out of respect for the source. The crust was quite good but I don't know if I'd make it the same way next time. The only thing I can tell you is that the percentage of AJ was 3.5% (rounded up) and the yeast was 0.04% (also rounded up).

Perhaps if I'd increase the AJ we'd see some impact but I am not sure if it's worth it.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #792 on: December 25, 2011, 04:53:32 PM »
I was working on a 64% hydration dough formula for tonight's bake and took Scott123's suggestions into account of lowering the sugar and raising the hydration compared to my last pies. The TF was 0.075 which brings the individual dough ball weight to 546 grams.

Here's what I've concocted...

Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
ADY (.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2.5%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (170.05%):
Single Ball:
642.72 g  |  22.67 oz | 1.42 lbs
411.34 g  |  14.51 oz | 0.91 lbs
1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
11.25 g | 0.4 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.02 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
16.07 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.57 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
9.64 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
1092.95 g | 38.55 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = 0.07575
546.48 g | 19.28 oz | 1.2 lbs

I'm shooting for a look similar to Ray's or John's of Bleecker. I don't know if that's possible but I'll try. I'll also get some Grande mozza for those pies, some Sopressatta and Italian sausage.  ;D

Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #793 on: December 25, 2011, 08:24:31 PM »
Dear Gawd Yer Killin Me!!!
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #794 on: December 25, 2011, 08:37:40 PM »
Mike,

I ate a pie at John's of Bleecker St. a couple weeks ago after I left Keste, and your's looks every bit as good if not better!

Craig
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #795 on: December 25, 2011, 09:00:20 PM »
Mike,

I ate a pie at John's of Bleecker St. a couple weeks ago after I left Keste, and your's looks every bit as good if not better!

Craig

Craig,

Thank you very much.

But let me ask you, what did you think of John's and how was the crust and the flavor of the sauce? The thing is , I don't know if I can achieve the nicely darkened cornicione of John's you see in the pic.

Ray's is probably more in my grasp given my limited oven capabilities.


Ron,

Those were Net pics picked off of Google. They look great, don't they? Now go and wipe off that keyboard  ;D

Happy Holidays to all on this board.
Mike

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #796 on: December 25, 2011, 09:30:29 PM »
Craig,

Thank you very much.

But let me ask you, what did you think of John's and how was the crust and the flavor of the sauce? The thing is , I don't know if I can achieve the nicely darkened cornicione of John's you see in the pic.

Ray's is probably more in my grasp given my limited oven capabilities.

It was good, but the flavor of crust and sauce were just OK. I have no doubt you can surpass both. Yes, the crust was darker. Maybe oil it before you bake? In any case, you can overcome the color issue with the other elements.

CL
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #797 on: December 25, 2011, 09:38:52 PM »
It was good, but the flavor of crust and sauce were just OK. I have no doubt you can surpass both. Yes, the crust was darker. Maybe oil it before you bake? In any case, you can overcome the color issue with the other elements.

CL

Craig,

Matthew was able to produce some coal-fired looking pies in his SAGE countertop oven. I was thinking about buying one myself but a 240 V outlet is needed and there's no way in hell that my Apt management would let me install it.

I might try the oil again but I know from past experiences that although it provides some degree of coloration on the outer crust, it won't go as dark as John's...or Totonno's for that matter.

We'll see...time to get creative  :)
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #798 on: December 25, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »
Those pies look wonderful!

I admit that I haven't done much looking through the thread for the answer to this question, but:

Can you talk about your approach to mushroom preparation that you've used in the most recent pics you've posted?  They look perfect and with very low moisture...

Thanks!
Sean

Sean,

A couple more words about the 'shrooms prepping...

I always buy them fresh, meaning they are displayed in bulk not packaged and wrapped with plastic foil as you might see in many supermarkets. Then they get sliced thin as you can see in the pics. Rarely do I have a problem with them flooding the pies with their liquid.

 
Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #799 on: December 25, 2011, 10:21:50 PM »
I might try the oil again but I know from past experiences that although it provides some degree of coloration on the outer crust, it won't go as dark as John's...or Totonno's for that matter.

Mike, although I think your pies are already better than John's or Totonno's, if you really want to emulate the appearance of their crust, put the cheese under the sauce and use the broiler during the bake.  If your plate is towards the top of the oven (6" or less vertical space), then about 3 minutes of broiling should give you that much color- assuming that the broiler stays on. That much top heat will normally brown the cheese too much, but if it's under the sauce, it should be fine.

Like I said, though, I think John's is a step down from what you're doing- unless, of course, you just want something different.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 10:31:50 PM by scott123 »


 

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