Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 128866 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #800 on: December 25, 2011, 10:34:19 PM »
Craig,

Matthew was able to produce some coal-fired looking pies in his SAGE countertop oven. I was thinking about buying one myself but a 240 V outlet is needed and there's no way in hell that my Apt management would let me install it.

I might try the oil again but I know from past experiences that although it provides some degree of coloration on the outer crust, it won't go as dark as John's...or Totonno's for that matter.

We'll see...time to get creative  :)

There is always a blowtorch...

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #801 on: December 25, 2011, 10:40:23 PM »

I always buy them fresh, meaning they are displayed in bulk not packaged and wrapped with plastic foil as you might see in many supermarkets. Then they get sliced thin as you can see in the pics. Rarely do I have a problem with them flooding the pies with their liquid.


Bingo!  When I switched from the packaged shrooms to the bulk shrooms on display, I noticed the bulk shrooms don't leak water like the packaged ones.  I'm not sure if it's a different mushroom or having them out in the open allows them to rid of their excess moisture.  Either way, that's all I buy now and just like Mike, slice thin.

Mike I was also just thinking of recommending one of those handheld torches for creme brulee.  You can probably get any color of rim you want with that thing.   >:D

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #802 on: December 25, 2011, 11:46:50 PM »
Bingo!  When I switched from the packaged shrooms to the bulk shrooms on display, I noticed the bulk shrooms don't leak water like the packaged ones.  I'm not sure if it's a different mushroom or having them out in the open allows them to rid of their excess moisture.  Either way, that's all I buy now and just like Mike, slice thin.

Mike I was also just thinking of recommending one of those handheld torches for creme brulee.  You can probably get any color of rim you want with that thing.   >:D

Chau & Craig,

I tried that stunt with the blow torch, one of those 6 oz types, early on. Didn't work out too well... :D  It's great for Creme Brulee, yes.


Chau,

Mushroom-wise, I think that's the only way to go.

Unfortunately, they lose a bit of moisture while being on the shelf which might compromise other recipes besides pizza, let's say a creamy mushroom sauce, where you'd love to have that liquid.

For pizza, though, they're perfect.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:41:25 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #803 on: December 26, 2011, 07:01:42 PM »
Well, it didn't go as planned. Crust was nice, the coloration...uhm...not so much. Temp was 585°F and the bake time 6 mins.

I'll just let the pics speak for themselves.

The cheese I used was an entirely different matter, though. I used 2/3 Grande mozza and 1/3 Grande Provolone. It had a nice tang to it. And yes, Grande is a superior cheese. The melting capabilities were excellent.



Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #804 on: December 26, 2011, 07:11:18 PM »
Sorry, Mike, I should have told you that more water requires additional heat from below AND above.  I had talked about using the broiler to replicate John's, but I failed to mention that you're going to need to use the broiler for a 64% hydration dough as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I find it helps to use the broiler towards the end of the bake.

What was the fermentation time?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #805 on: December 26, 2011, 07:14:00 PM »
Sorry, Mike, I should have told you that more water requires additional heat from below AND above.  I had talked about using the broiler to replicate John's, but I failed to mention that you're going to need to use the broiler for a 64% hydration dough as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I find it helps to use the broiler towards the end of the bake.

What was the fermentation time?

Scotty,

I did actually use the broiler for a minute but I guess it wasn't enough. Fermentation was almost 24 hrs.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #806 on: December 26, 2011, 07:26:12 PM »
Mike, if that was a minute of broiling, then, next time, I shoot for something around 3 minutes- something along the lines of

pizza in
2 minutes
broiler on
3 minutes

Total time: 5

How close is your broiler to your stone?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #807 on: December 26, 2011, 07:28:45 PM »
I have the stone on the middle rack and moved the pie up to the top rack with a peel.

Top rack is about 5-6 inches away from the broiler.
Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #808 on: December 26, 2011, 07:34:55 PM »
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you baked the pizza on the stone for 5 minutes and then moved it to the top rack while it was broiling for 1 more minute?

Even if it doesn't look as stunning as your previous bakes, it was still a pretty delicious pie, right?


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #809 on: December 26, 2011, 07:36:15 PM »
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you baked the pizza on the stone for 5 minutes and then moved it to the top rack while it was broiling for 1 more minute?

Even if it doesn't look as stunning as your previous bakes, it was still a pretty delicious pie, right?

That's correct.

It was good, yes. But nowhere near where it could have been. I gotta rethink the approach, Scotty.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #810 on: December 26, 2011, 11:14:49 PM »
That's correct.

It was good, yes. But nowhere near where it could have been. I gotta rethink the approach, Scotty.

Mikey, I'm really hoping that you don't rethink it too much.  The modified Fazzari formula produced stunning pizzas that were, imo, just a titch away from Avellino's.  Modified Fazzari + enough additional water to give you a moister (creamier) crumb = win. The extra water is complicating things with the bake, but I'm certain you can dial it in. I might have steered you wrong by saying 63-65 and 62 might be a happier hydration, and maybe 585 is a tiny bit too high on the hearth (perhaps 575), but, with a tweak or two, you're going to nail it.

You're close.  Really close.  You could make modified Fazzari's from here on out and be loved by all, but since you like the creaminess of the Avellino crumb, I really think it's worth a little extra tinkering.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #811 on: December 26, 2011, 11:39:42 PM »
Mikey, I'm really hoping that you don't rethink it too much.  The modified Fazzari formula produced stunning pizzas that were, imo, just a titch away from Avellino's.  Modified Fazzari + enough additional water to give you a moister (creamier) crumb = win. The extra water is complicating things with the bake, but I'm certain you can dial it in. I might have steered you wrong by saying 63-65 and 62 might be a happier hydration, and maybe 585 is a tiny bit too high on the hearth (perhaps 575), but, with a tweak or two, you're going to nail it.

You're close.  Really close.  You could make modified Fazzari's from here on out and be loved by all, but since you like the creaminess of the Avellino crumb, I really think it's worth a little extra tinkering.

Scotty,

I won't rethink too much about a new approach. Like you said it's just a tweak or two away, nothing drastic. I'm glad I finally got a handle on the steel plate baking methods, though. That took a little time getting used to it.

Regarding John's formula, it was a good one and produced good results but... and this is not to take anything away from his dough or insinuate that it's not worthy of a more in-depth exploration... I'd rather come up with my own than leaning on others' work and efforts.

I hope he doesn't take offense... :angel:

Anyway, to me it's just a matter of time, and tons of fun, to get the steel plate thing perfected with a dough that can rival those here in SF. That might be a tall order but I have my own 'perfect' crust visualized and won't rest until I get at least 75%-80% close because a 100% might not be realistic. A 100% would be icing on the cake and having Christmas, Easter and my B-day fall all on the same day.

My comfort zone in the past, hydration-wise, was always between 61% - 63%, although I used a 66% hydro with the All Trumps. I think that if I can get the temps dialed in correctly for a 62% or 63% hydro dough, with the correct amount of oil and sugar, I should be able to get close to the Avellino, Marcello's and most other common NY-style doughs.

With that said, I still have a 64% hydro dough ball in the fridge and might as well bake that one off tonight and see if there's any changes. I also might raise the temp by 5-10 degrees...

More later...
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #812 on: December 27, 2011, 12:06:30 AM »
Btw, Scotty, here's our friend David Kover who 'reviewed' Avellino's on Slice:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/06/pizza-obsessives-david-kover-slice-contributor.html

For his own homemade NY-style pies he uses J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's recipe. I thought you'd get a kick out of that one.
Mike

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #813 on: December 27, 2011, 12:37:21 AM »
Scotty,

I won't rethink too much about a new approach. Like you said it's just a tweak or two away, nothing drastic. I'm glad I finally got a handle on the steel plate baking methods, though. That took a little time getting used to it.

Regarding John's formula, it was a good one and produced good results but... and this is not to take anything away from his dough or insinuate that it's not worthy of a more in-depth exploration... I'd rather come up with my own than leaning on others' work and efforts.

I hope he doesn't take offense... :angel:

Anyway, to me it's just a matter of time, and tons of fun, to get the steel plate thing perfected with a dough that can rival those here in SF. That might be a tall order but I have my own 'perfect' crust visualized and won't rest until I get at least 75%-80% close because a 100% might not be realistic. A 100% would be icing on the cake and having Christmas, Easter and my B-day fall all on the same day.

My comfort zone in the past, hydration-wise, was always between 61% - 63%, although I used a 66% hydro with the All Trumps. I think that if I can get the temps dialed in correctly for a 62% or 63% hydro dough, with the correct amount of oil and sugar, I should be able to get close to the Avellino, Marcello's and most other common NY-style doughs.

With that said, I still have a 64% hydro dough ball in the fridge and might as well bake that one off tonight and see if there's any changes. I also might raise the temp by 5-10 degrees...

More later...

The recipe that you are calling mine is a very simple Lehmann recipe I picked up at one of his week long seminars...I added a bit more salt just for my taste.  I have no emotional ties to that recipe, and that's why I picked it...I was less interested in the formula, and more interested in how differing balling patterns can affect the final output....my thinking was, that if I could show that balling dough later could really have a good effect on product, then it should work for most anyone's favorite dough...I still prefer a 62% hydrated dough made with 33% poolish for my favorite, but I'm starting to learn the why's of what makes it good to me.  So, go for it, and come up with something sensational!!!

John

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #814 on: December 27, 2011, 01:43:58 AM »
For his own homemade NY-style pies he uses J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's recipe. I thought you'd get a kick out of that one.

6% oil, a 12 to 15 minute bake time and a cooked sauce. No wonder why Mr. Kover can't recognize a good pizza when it's right in front of him.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #815 on: December 27, 2011, 03:51:27 PM »
6% oil, a 12 to 15 minute bake time and a cooked sauce. No wonder why Mr. Kover can't recognize a good pizza when it's right in front of him.

After reading the interview I realized why he favors Arinell's over Marcello's & Avellino. He lives only a couple of blocks away and it's his go-to spot. To each their own, I guess.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #816 on: December 27, 2011, 03:55:18 PM »
Second 64% hydro dough from last night.

Had some leftover toppings from the night before and threw 'em on.

Raised the temp to 590°F and it came out just a tad better than the previous one. But still nowhere near of what I have in mind. Over the weekend I'll try a slightly different formula with a lower hydration, perhaps lower oil amount and higher heat.

Some pics...

Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #817 on: December 27, 2011, 05:02:58 PM »
Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?  ;D  That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Now it looks like you might be having boilover issues- but I think that's a topping issue or cheese/rim proximity thing.  Where the oil from the pizza hasn't boiled over on the rim, the effect is stunning- maybe not a John's level of color, but certainly something Ray-ish.

So what's bugging you? Is it the flop?  Don't forget, in order to get Avellino's signature creamy crumb and crispy exterior, you've got to bake the pizza to the point you have here, let it sit and cool a few minutes, then return it to the plate for a minute. That should crisp up the bottom (and give it a little bit more char) while leaving the moist crumb intact. Obviously you don't have to do this, but if you want crispy creamy, I don't think any hydration is going to give it to you straight out of the oven.

Another thing to consider is toppings.  You've been doing this a long time and probably have a strong preference for a particular quantity of toppings, and I think many people across the nation feel similarly, but, it's good to keep in mind that toppings contain water and that, as discussed earlier, water takes a lot of energy to heat, so a lot of toppings will effect the way a pizza bakes.  This is a big reason why pizzerias in NY and New Haven go so lightly with the toppings- that if you're a bit heavy handed, the crust can suffer. You're making pizza pretty frequently these days, so doing lots of plain pies would get old really quickly, but, just like the re-heat is a big part of the Avellino experience, so is the plain pie (and toppings on the re-heat, if desired).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying 'Do a re-heat' or 'Nix the toppings.'  What am saying is that these two approaches might take you in a more Avellino direction.  At this point, your ideal pie may have Avellino-ish qualities, but it might not be a perfect clone. You're destined to make something better than Avellino.


Offline fazzari

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #818 on: December 28, 2011, 02:57:13 PM »
Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?  ;D  That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Mike
I agree whole heartedly with Scott, that crust looks incredible!!!!

John

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #819 on: December 30, 2011, 11:35:01 PM »
Just a 'tad' better, Mike? Really, a tad?  ;D  That undercrust is gorgeous. That's probably in the top 10 undercrusts I've seen on this board. And, unlike your 60% hydration dough, the crumb looks nice and moist- creamy.

Now it looks like you might be having boilover issues- but I think that's a topping issue or cheese/rim proximity thing.  Where the oil from the pizza hasn't boiled over on the rim, the effect is stunning- maybe not a John's level of color, but certainly something Ray-ish.

So what's bugging you? Is it the flop?  Don't forget, in order to get Avellino's signature creamy crumb and crispy exterior, you've got to bake the pizza to the point you have here, let it sit and cool a few minutes, then return it to the plate for a minute. That should crisp up the bottom (and give it a little bit more char) while leaving the moist crumb intact. Obviously you don't have to do this, but if you want crispy creamy, I don't think any hydration is going to give it to you straight out of the oven.

Another thing to consider is toppings.  You've been doing this a long time and probably have a strong preference for a particular quantity of toppings, and I think many people across the nation feel similarly, but, it's good to keep in mind that toppings contain water and that, as discussed earlier, water takes a lot of energy to heat, so a lot of toppings will effect the way a pizza bakes.  This is a big reason why pizzerias in NY and New Haven go so lightly with the toppings- that if you're a bit heavy handed, the crust can suffer. You're making pizza pretty frequently these days, so doing lots of plain pies would get old really quickly, but, just like the re-heat is a big part of the Avellino experience, so is the plain pie (and toppings on the re-heat, if desired).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying 'Do a re-heat' or 'Nix the toppings.'  What am saying is that these two approaches might take you in a more Avellino direction.  At this point, your ideal pie may have Avellino-ish qualities, but it might not be a perfect clone. You're destined to make something better than Avellino.



Scotty,

Yes...just a tad.  :)

I know I was heavy handed on the toppings but I wasn't really too concerned about them. I simply threw what leftovers I had in the fridge on the pie and that was that.

I'm aware that NY-style pies or slices are not that loaded. And sometimes less is more.  ;D

What was bugging me was the lack of crust coloration and the major gum line the pie had. It's not really visible in the pics but it almost felt like being undercooked. I'm writing this on off as another mediocre attempt. Sounds snobbish, I know, but it wasn't one of my better pies.

Either way, that pie's history. However, I'd like to get your and other members' opinion on my next post.


John,

Thanks very much. Wasn't my best effort, though.  ;D
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #820 on: December 30, 2011, 11:46:27 PM »
I have been giving this NY-style thing quite a lot of thought lately and have come to some thoughts of why it it's tough for a regular home pizzamaker to achieve professional results and would love some input from fellow members on here about my theories. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a tall order, given the lack of professional equipment and resources to match any given professional pizza that's out there.

In this case, the famous NY street slice.

After having several conversations with NY-style pizzeria operators here in S.F. (i.e. Marcello's, Armando, Avellino), after watching countless videos, especially the Luigi DDD video, and of course making numerous pies a few things I think really stand out:

  • 1. Bake time

All of those guys I've spoken with mentioned a bake time in the double digits, mostly somewhere between 10-15 minutes, depending on size and toppings.

  • 2. Baking temp

Everybody I've spoken with have told me they run their ovens around 525°F – 550°F. That included Baker's Pride, Rotoflex and Blodgett ovens

  • 3. Hydration

58% -60% were the most prominent values given, with an amount of oil somewhere between 2% - 3%, in addition to the water.

  • 4. Mixing/Kneading time

10 – 12 minutes, sometimes up to 15 minutes depending on how the dough felt (Hobart & Globe were the two brand names I remember)

I don't know how accurate all these numbers are, but given the fact that all of them were almost identical/consistent with each other, I'm thinking that this might be the standard.

Here are my thoughts on those subjects above.

Bake time.
Well, everybody on here knows that a home oven can't hold a candle to a commercial pizza oven, given the thick hearth they have, the low-ceiling baking chambers, superior insulation, ventilation and what not. Some ovens feature hearths up to 2” thick, perhaps fitted with steel plates the same thickness (Marcello's) and heat coming most likely from different directions due to better heat distribution, especially a Rotoflex. A home oven is no match for this.

What to do? I have tried several different stones, from a flimsy, thin stone which cracked after the second use to a cordierite from AM, an Old Stone, a Fibrament, a kiln shelf which I still use and a steel plate.

The kiln shelf, and also most recently the steel plate, have yielded the best results although at completely different temperatures. I can't use the same dough, though, at the same temperature using the kiln and the steel plate.

The steel would just turn it into a black disc while the kiln delivered a total different outcome, which means I'd have to adjust the dough in order to get the same results on a steel plate at lower temps compared to the kiln shelf, which also means...inadvertently...that Luc's (Marcello's) words and advice are spot on when she said to  “...tailor your dough to your oven and not the other way around.” Now I know what she meant.

Baking temps. Okay, make your favorite dough recipe, use your favorite hearth and bake it at 525° to 550°F when you have been using a higher temperature or even a lower one. Two things will happen...it will either be too charred or the crust will be under-baked. That's my prediction. Been there, done that. The result: Frustration.

However, when you know how your hearth performs at certain temps, and you have a solid dough formula and know how that performs then you're pretty much set, right? Great. Now try that exact same dough at the exact same temp on a different hearth or in a different home oven. I bet a whole year's salary that it won't turn out the same way. That's one part of the challenge of generating a NY-style pie at home.

Hydration.
We've heard all those descriptions of the perfect NY-style pie...”pillowy”, “tender crust”, “biting into a cloud”, “foldable yet airy”, “light as a feather”, “creamy, crunchy, chewy”, etc.

What does that mean and how does it equate to hydration? I think we first have to look at the two key components...flour and water. Then, as a third, comes oil. And the way and time frame it took to mix and put the dough together. But more on that later.

Like Peter, Scott R and Scott123 have pointed out over time here, water takes longer to evaporate in a dough. This reminds me of two things...

Luc of Marcello's told me recently that one key to a good NY-style crust is to “bake out” the dough as much as possible without compromising it. I have yet to determine what that exactly means. Chad Robertson gives basically the same advice in his Tartine book, which makes sense given the very high hydration of the Tartine dough, the high heat that's involved and the extended bake time of up to 45 minutes.

But his instructions can't really be applied to a NY-style pizza, although the train of thought might be the same. So how does all that translate to a pizza dough with a 58, 60 or 63 percent hydration? Lower heat and extended bake times (10-15 mins)? Those numbers are for commercial ovens.

At home, they might correlate to numbers between 5-8 mins, for certain hearths. But here's another thought...we all know the effects oil has on a dough. It makes it softer, more pliable, might contribute to oven spring, etc. What I have yet to see is what the oil's temperature during baking does to the dough and how it effects and compares to the water. Oil can get a lot hotter than water without evaporating at the rate water does, if at all. So what effect has oil temperature on a NY-style pizza dough during the  bake?

Mixing/Kneading time.
10-15 mins in a professional Horbart, for example. Translate that to a lower-hydration dough kneading in a home mixer, such as the KA or Cuisinart, and it would be overkill, I would think. Especially when a high-gluten flour is used, such as KASL, All Trumps or Pendleton's Power Flour.

The dough would probably end up with a gluten matrix that even a modern tennis net can't match. Not good. My recent pondering and reflection on such matters led me to believe that a kneading time of 4 mins, not counting the minute or two it takes to incorporate all the ingredients, if a 24 hr overnight cold-rise is used, and 6 mins for a same-day dough that's made very early in the morning, say between 6 & 8 am. Not to mention the increased yeast amount for a one-day dough.

With all that said, are home pizzamakers facing an insurmountable & uphill battle when it comes to replicating or even designing a dough that rivals those professional ones? My hopes are on the answer 'No' but it will yet to be seen how far one can take it. Especially with a regular, generic electric oven.

The above thoughts, theories and statements are just that...basically a collection of information and my own ponderings. And I'm not a chemist nor a physicist so anyone with better knowledge feel free to chime in and correct/advise or comment.

It will be, as usual, very much appreciated.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #821 on: December 31, 2011, 12:15:26 AM »
Your most recent pictures show something above the majority of your questions. 

What happened to your old tag line about not becoming someones priority or something?

Other than having your camera somehow overblowing the white in the pictures,  I think you could set up a slice tent outside of Allevios or Aeriolas or what ever your preference is and kick their arse.

I prefer a slightly better than blonde rim.  You and Scott123 can wage war about what is appropriate for NY style, but a blonde rim just says "Hello i am here"  A slightly more done rim says "Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, forgot about it."

I would enjoy any of your pizzas, bro, I am sure.  :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #822 on: December 31, 2011, 08:37:02 AM »
Mike,

Somewhat like you do, I have watched different pizzerias baking their pies (NY style) and what I took from it was they are baked longer than what members here on the forum are baking pies in their home ovens. 

I do have an advantage of baking in a deck oven and comparing how the deck oven bakes compares to my home oven.  My home oven is really anemic, and only goes a little over 500 degrees F.  Really I don’t have much of any conclusions, but the only thing I noticed was pies baked in my home oven are a little dryer and the bake times are longer.  I can still get oven spring in my anemic home oven, so it leads me to think that no matter the recipe or formula it must have something to do how the dough is mixed or handled, or other variables.  I also have a Hobart to fool around with and my basic Kitchen Aid mixer.  Both can make good doughs, but the Hobart mixes much faster, even if kept on speed 1.  I have also played around with soapstone and gave Steve soapstone to try in his home oven, which gets higher in temperature than my home oven.  We both didn’t like the results of soapstone. From watching how the Hobart mixes and seeing what the final dough looks like, I can get somewhat the same looks in my dough from my Kitchen Aid and the doughs perform about the same in the deck oven.  I have mixed very long in my Kitchen Aid and from those limited results, it doesn’t seem like it matters a lot, as long as the dough doesn’t get too tight.  If it does, it seems to work okay to just rest the dough until the gluten relaxes some, then ball.  I would think, from all the experiments I have done, I would know more about dough than I really do, but dough, mixing times, formulation, reballing, ovens, and so many other variables are always challenging and not easy to figure out, for most doughs.  I have mixed some very high hydrations doughs, down to lower hydrations dough at home in the Kitchen Aid.  There are so many mysteries I still can’t figure out about dough or baking the dough into pizzas.  I have also been lucky enough to watch how my friend Steve’s WFO bakes at different temperatures and different formulations.  I don’t think I ever will be able to understand all what goes into making the best pizza I can, but all of it is intriguing to me.  Hydrations and addition of oils is also intriguing.  I know you and I both tried pies in the Luigi’s thread and that dough didn’t have any oil in the formulations.  Another mix to add.  I have also tried really long mix times with the Mack’s dough which is lower in hydration, but does contain a decent amount of oil.  Those pies would have had good oven spring, if the dough wasn’t pressed a lot. 

Like Gene, I would eat any of your pizzas  ;D and look forward to see what you find out in your experiments and what other members have to contribute to your thread in their ideas about everything.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #823 on: December 31, 2011, 07:56:02 PM »
Stopped by at Avellino's today and ordered two slices. One pepperoni and one mushroom/sausage.

While I was waiting, I watched a new batch of dough coming out of the backroom and saw how they ball the dough up. It looked very much like a low-hydration dough, maybe 58% but no more than 60%. I don't know if they just made the dough or if it was a dough that's been proofing overnight.

Either way, the guys working the dough placed the dough balls into dough boxes and stacked the boxes right next to the prepping table but across from the oven. I couldn't hang around much longer but I got one tidbit of info out of the guy who handed me my slices. I told him that I'm trying to recreate a NY-style dough at home and simply asked him what kind of flour they use. He said they use a mix of two flours....Pendleton Power flour and it's cousin...Pendleton Mondako.

I almost dropped my slices when I heard that. But he said he didn't know much more because he only works the counter and only handles dough sporadically.

So, Power & Mondako it is at Avellino. Who woulda thunk it.  ???

Anyway, I decided instead of biting into the scorching hot slices to let them cool down and take them on the short ride across the Golden Gate and enjoy them at home. First off, the crust is paper thin. I also peeled back a little bit of the layer of cheese and it was also very thin so I guess they don't use a whole lot of it.

I'm usually not a big fan of warm or even cold pizza but I let one slice cool down significantly just to get a better taste of the crust. I do believe it is a low-hydration dough but with a fair amount of oil in it, maybe 2.5% or 3%. I've had slices in the past where when cold they became cracker-like. This was still on the soft side but lost a bit of it's crunch that is there when they come out of the oven.

Took some pics...

« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 08:05:30 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #824 on: December 31, 2011, 07:57:15 PM »
Norma and Jet_Deck,

Thanks. But as we all know, looks can be deceiving at times and in the case of my last pies, they were.  :)

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


 

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