Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 128487 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #825 on: December 31, 2011, 08:05:39 PM »
 I've got to agree with Scott, a real NY pie is minimalist, really just a smear of sauce and a very modest amount of cheese. Toppings really aren't associated with the classic NY slice, and when you start to add them the pie just isn't the same.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #826 on: December 31, 2011, 08:07:11 PM »
I've got to agree with Scott, a real NY pie is minimalist, really just a smear of sauce and a very modest amount of cheese. Toppings really aren't associated with the classic NY slice, and when you start to add them the pie just isn't the same.

DMC,

I know.

I just threw what I had of my leftovers on the pie and that was basically it. Next time will be different.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #827 on: December 31, 2011, 10:27:33 PM »
I just looked at the fact sheet from Pendleton Mills and the values given for the Power flour are

Protein 13.5%    Ash   0.57   Absorption   65%

and for the Mondako the values are

Protein 11.9%    Ash   0.53    Absorption   62%

The values of the Mondako look more like a bread flour. Since I still have some of the ConAgra BF here I might mix up a 65/35 ratio of both flours, with a 3% oil value and a 60% hydration.

However, I don't know at what ratio Avellino mixes its flours so I could be over-shooting or under-shooting their ratio with my 65/35 approach. Will mix up the dough tonight and report back tomorrow after a 24 hr ferment.

Fact sheet's here: http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf


Happy New Year everybody!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 10:31:43 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #828 on: January 01, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »
Scotty already posted that a blend of the two would be ideal....   I am thinking that Scotty is a NY pizza robot, or something. :-D :chef: :pizza:
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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #829 on: January 01, 2012, 01:03:01 AM »
I think I mentioned it twice, but, hey, who's counting?  ;D

Seriously, though, those are some of the thinnest slices I've ever seen. I like a thin crust, but that's a little extreme. With that kind of thickness factor, a 10+ minute bake would produce a cracker crust, especially if you felt like the dough looked a little low on the hydration spectrum.

How was the taste?  Did it stack up?  When I eat really thin slices, I feel a little cheated, like somehow the pizzeria is too cheap to give me enough crust.  I know this isn't the case, but on some level, it feels that way.

A 50/50 blend will put you right in what I consider the 'sweet spot' for NY style protein levels - 12.7%. The biggest advantage is that is gives you a huge kneading window- you can underknead a bit or overknead a bit and the dough won't suffer like a 14% flour will and get tough.

Happy New Year!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #830 on: January 01, 2012, 01:53:20 AM »
I think I mentioned it twice, but, hey, who's counting?  ;D

Seriously, though, those are some of the thinnest slices I've ever seen. I like a thin crust, but that's a little extreme. With that kind of thickness factor, a 10+ minute bake would produce a cracker crust, especially if you felt like the dough looked a little low on the hydration spectrum.

How was the taste?  Did it stack up?  When I eat really thin slices, I feel a little cheated, like somehow the pizzeria is too cheap to give me enough crust.  I know this isn't the case, but on some level, it feels that way.

A 50/50 blend will put you right in what I consider the 'sweet spot' for NY style protein levels - 12.7%. The biggest advantage is that is gives you a huge kneading window- you can underknead a bit or overknead a bit and the dough won't suffer like a 14% flour will and get tough.

Happy New Year!

Scotty,

Happy New Year!

I didn't know you suggested Mondako and the Power flour as a combo before.

Either way, the slices were perfectly balanced...cheese, sauce and crust. They had the same characteristics as the ones I had before.

The taste was just as great as the first slice I had. I can't make it there that often but when I do I always wonder how they do it. Yes, it did stack up.

Scotty, Avellino produces an amazingly well-balanced NY-style pizza, despite what Mr. Kover says or what Arinell's puts out. Much like Marcello's but their dough is a bit different from Avellino's. Lighter, but just as good.

Off to a party...

Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #831 on: January 01, 2012, 07:28:42 AM »
Scotty,

Happy New Year!

I didn't know you suggested Mondako and the Power flour as a combo before.


Mike,

This post is where Scott mentioned using 50/50 Power Flour and Mondako Flour to me at Reply 555 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg158138.html#msg158138   I did start mixing a preferment with  combinations of Power Flour and Mondako flour on Friday for the preferment Lehmann dough to be tried on Tuesday.  These are the other two posts that Scott mentioned the combinations of the Power Flour and Mondako Flour, the one post being on your thread at Reply 749 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg157771.html#msg157771 and the other post at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.msg157136.html#msg157136

Norma

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #832 on: January 01, 2012, 01:31:35 PM »
Mikey, maybe it's the angle of the photos, but I could have sworn that the crust looked thinner than the last few batches of photos you've taken. It's good to hear that the slices are still on par with what you've had there before.

As I look at the photos again, one thing caught my eye that they are doing a bit differently.

Do you see the darker area right at the end of the underrim?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=47576;image

That wasn't there before

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=39900;image

That kind of pinched, darker rim area can be a result of an inexperienced hand stretcher who's pressing down on the rim aggressively, but 99% of the time, it's indicative of sheeter use. Either they've gone the sheeter route recently or, perhaps they were doing a combo sheet and hand stretch and have recently dialed the sheet thickness down to facilitate less hand stretching. Either way, I'm not ecstatic about it.  Sheeters are shortcuts that no self respecting NY style pizzeria would ever go near, regardless of the volume required from them.

Don't get me wrong, Avellino's still looks like an amazing slice of pizza and well worth the effort of recreating, but the extra crunchy pinched edge may not be something you want to emulate.

Mike, from all your descriptions, I'm guessing that they don't show pizzas actually being stretched/made, do they?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #833 on: January 01, 2012, 02:49:22 PM »
Mike,

This post is where Scott mentioned using 50/50 Power Flour and Mondako Flour to me at Reply 555 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg158138.html#msg158138   I did start mixing a preferment with  combinations of Power Flour and Mondako flour on Friday for the preferment Lehmann dough to be tried on Tuesday.  These are the other two posts that Scott mentioned the combinations of the Power Flour and Mondako Flour, the one post being on your thread at Reply 749 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg157771.html#msg157771 and the other post at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.msg157136.html#msg157136

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for pointing that out. I must have missed Scotty's refrence to the Mondako. My bad, Scotty!
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #834 on: January 01, 2012, 02:54:17 PM »
Mikey, maybe it's the angle of the photos, but I could have sworn that the crust looked thinner than the last few batches of photos you've taken. It's good to hear that the slices are still on par with what you've had there before.

As I look at the photos again, one thing caught my eye that they are doing a bit differently.

Do you see the darker area right at the end of the underrim?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=47576;image

That wasn't there before

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8093.0;attach=39900;image

That kind of pinched, darker rim area can be a result of an inexperienced hand stretcher who's pressing down on the rim aggressively, but 99% of the time, it's indicative of sheeter use. Either they've gone the sheeter route recently or, perhaps they were doing a combo sheet and hand stretch and have recently dialed the sheet thickness down to facilitate less hand stretching. Either way, I'm not ecstatic about it.  Sheeters are shortcuts that no self respecting NY style pizzeria would ever go near, regardless of the volume required from them.

Don't get me wrong, Avellino's still looks like an amazing slice of pizza and well worth the effort of recreating, but the extra crunchy pinched edge may not be something you want to emulate.

Mike, from all your descriptions, I'm guessing that they don't show pizzas actually being stretched/made, do they?

Scotty,

They hand-stretch the dough.

I saw that yesterday when they made a plain cheese pie. It was stretched by the same guy who answered my question about the flour. Maybe he isn't that experienced because the main guy, who's always there, was in the back room and came out moments later with a batch of dough and then started balling them up, together with third employee.

Maybe they use the thin crusts only for slices because if someone orders a full-size pie with additional toppings I don't think it'll hold up.

Here's another pic of an Avellino sausage slice...looks a little bit thicker to me but could be the angle. Same rim, though. Were bit wider before, is it it just me?
Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #835 on: January 01, 2012, 03:11:27 PM »
Mike, I really can't tell if it's wider or not. I have talked previously about how I felt like their slice pie could be a bit bigger than 18"- if that is the case, I highly doubt that they're selling larger than 18" made to order pies.  I've never seen this done before, but, it's possible, because of the delicate nature of the slice preventing it from holding toppings well, perhaps they're making one size of dough ball, but stretching it further (possibly sheeting), for slice pies, but not stretching quite as far for made to order to increase the thickness factor and topping holding capabilities.

For future reference, a dollar in the shot can be helpful for perspective. Or, if you're Chau, a ten dollar bill  :P

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #836 on: January 02, 2012, 09:38:50 PM »
Scotty,

I can assure you, there's no use of a sheeter at Avellino's. It's just all hand-stretching.  :)

============

Anyway, I made three pies last evening, one going to a family member, the other to a buddy of mine and one for myself.

Family member's was pie topped, upon request, with mushrooms, olives and fresh basil. Second one was topped with pepperoni, meatballs, mushrooms and a basil pesto Italian sausage. Mine was just mushrooms and meatballs.

I made two different dough's, though. One with a 59% hydro value and 3% oil and the other with a 60% hydro value and 2.5% oil.

The formulas were as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (3%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (166.05%):
Single Ball:
658.21 g  |  23.22 oz | 1.45 lbs
388.34 g  |  13.7 oz | 0.86 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
11.52 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
19.75 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.39 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
13.16 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.3 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1092.95 g | 38.55 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = 0.07575
546.48 g | 19.28 oz | 1.2 lbs


Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2.5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (166.55%):
Single Ball:
656.23 g  |  23.15 oz | 1.45 lbs
393.74 g  |  13.89 oz | 0.87 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
11.48 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
16.41 g | 0.58 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.65 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
13.12 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1092.95 g | 38.55 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = 0.07575
546.48 g | 19.28 oz | 1.2 lbs


I also used a 65/35 blend of Power flour and ConAgra's Harvest Bread flour for those two.

I added water, sugar, yeast and oil to the mixer's bowl and let it sit until the yeast started foaming. Then I added the flour, then the salt and mix it until everything was incorporated. Rest for 15 mins. Then a total knead time of 5 mins followed. Took the dough out and immediately balled it up, brushed it very lightly with oil, covered it with plastic wrap and gave it a 24 hr cold rise. The pics you see are taken right before the doughs go into the fridge and about 4 hours before baking.

Once baking time approached, I took two dough balls out of the fridge, one 59% and one 60%, and allowed them to come up to room temp while the oven was heating up. They sat on the counter for about 30 mins before I opened and shaped them into skins. Both doughs handled amazingly well, were very easy to open and had a satiny feel to them. Used 8oz of sauce, a mix between 6in1s and Cirio whole tomatoes, and 11oz of cheese (whole milk part skim & low-moisture part skim mozza from Trader Joe's). Unfortunately, I didn't get to take any pics of the 60% hydro pie because it was a fast pick-up but I have another one in the fridge which will be turned into a plain cheese pie tonight.

Both were baked at the same temp of 565F for five minutes, then taken out for about 2 mins before being placed under the broiler for 45 secs.

The feedback I got ranged from "Divine" (family member) to "Outstanding" (friend). I know, I know...people say friends and family are never really critical as to not hurt ones feelings but I made it clear to them that I want brutal honesty. They're not going to hurt my feelings with constructive criticism but instead help me get better at things through their honest feedback. If someone says my pies are crap then I will look at the things why he/she feels they are crap. Simple as that.

Anyway, I did like the outcome but I think the oil value is a bit too high so I've made adjustments for my next formula...63% hydro and 1.75% oil.

Some pics...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:55:19 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #837 on: January 02, 2012, 09:56:33 PM »
Sorry...just saw this and corrected it.

I had the same upskirt pic posted twice from the same pizza.  :-[
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #838 on: August 24, 2012, 02:49:55 PM »
So it's been quite awhile since I have tooled around with my NY-style dough formulations but recently I have started picking things up again in the pizza-making department.

I have made pizzas during my hiatus but not really for myself or took on any other pizza experiments. The pies I have made in the last 9 months were mostly for friends and family members upon their request. However, over the course of the last four weeks or so I gave the NY-style more thought again.

When making pies for friends and family I always asked for honest feedback. The one I have heard the most was "too chewy". And that was probably in regards to the Pendleton Power flour I used combined with too much kneading for a same day dough. I haven't done a longer fermentation at all these past few months. All pizzas were made with same day doughs. So I kept that same-day thing going but made a few changes to the dough by basically "diluting" the PPF with AP flour at a 70/30 ratio, lowered the kneading time from 8 minutes to 6 but also allowed the dough to counter-rise for a more extended period of time. The changes worked but the crusts came out still a bit too tough and chewy so I dropped the salt value as well as raising the oil level a bit.

Yesterday I made another pie with the adjusted formula and I am extremely happy with the outcome. Granted, the crust lacked in flavor but that is easily resolved by giving the dough a 24hr cold-rise. However, the structure of the crust was mind-blowing...very close to the real deal. Or as close as one can get using a home oven and mixer. The only other thing there is to try for me is the 24hr cold-ferment with the same formula just to see if my preliminary results hold up.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.3%):
Salt (1.8%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (169.1%):
288.26 g  |  10.17 oz | 0.64 lbs
181.6 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.86 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
5.19 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
5.77 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
5.77 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
487.44 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.07575

(For the ease of measuring the flour I used 200gr PPF and 88gr organic AP flour)

This pie was baked on my kiln shelf at 575F stone temp, no broiler, for 5 minutes. The cheese was TJ's low-moisture whole milk mozzarella blended with a little shaved & aged Parmesan cheese.

If the 24hr cold-rise will deliver the same results, I think I can die a happy man.  ;D

Well, I guess the only other thing would be to test the dough on my 18" steel plate.
Mike

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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #839 on: August 24, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
wow, you did a get a pretty crazy crumb structure through the entire slice. Looks delicious!

Offline Ev

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #840 on: August 24, 2012, 05:51:05 PM »
What's not to love about that pie? Looks great!

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #841 on: August 24, 2012, 06:05:54 PM »
Mike, Armando's is, unfortunately, for most New Yorkers, the 'real deal,' and this last pizza blows Armando's out of the water, so, in that sense, you've far surpassed the 'real deal.'  Unless, by 'real deal,' you're talking about Avellino's.  The undercrust is pretty much flawless- I don't think they can top you on that.  The rim crumb looks excellent as well.  The undercrust crumb, though, could be a tiny bit more moist/creamier/finer, like the pizza you did here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg165107.html#msg165107

If you take this undercrust crumb (minus the toppings, of course) and combine it with all the features of this most recent pie, I think you'll have perfection.

On a separate note, based upon the superior results you're seeing with cordierite-mullite, I've made the decision to reach out to kiln shelf purveyors to see if any of them has any control over the recipes for their shelves, and, if they do, would it be possible to create a shelf with an even higher conductivity. I still love steel, but, for many people, steel is just too heavy. Most shelves are imported from China, but I'm hoping there's an outfit or two that makes their own shelves and is willing to alter their recipe to better suit the pizza community's needs.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #842 on: August 24, 2012, 06:42:42 PM »
Thanks, Ev & Jeff!

Much appreciated  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

parallei

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #843 on: August 24, 2012, 06:58:27 PM »
Well, you've been away for awhile, but you stepped back up to the plate with some fine looking pizza Mike. 8)

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #844 on: August 24, 2012, 07:18:09 PM »
Mike, Armando's is, unfortunately, for most New Yorkers, the 'real deal,' and this last pizza blows Armando's out of the water, so, in that sense, you've far surpassed the 'real deal.'  Unless, by 'real deal,' you're talking about Avellino's.  The undercrust is pretty much flawless- I don't think they can top you on that.  The rim crumb looks excellent as well.  The undercrust crumb, though, could be a tiny bit more moist/creamier/finer, like the pizza you did here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg165107.html#msg165107

If you take this undercrust crumb (minus the toppings, of course) and combine it with all the features of this most recent pie, I think you'll have perfection.

On a separate note, based upon the superior results you're seeing with cordierite-mullite, I've made the decision to reach out to kiln shelf purveyors to see if any of them has any control over the recipes for their shelves, and, if they do, would it be possible to create a shelf with an even higher conductivity. I still love steel, but, for many people, steel is just too heavy. Most shelves are imported from China, but I'm hoping there's an outfit or two that makes their own shelves and is willing to alter their recipe to better suit the pizza community's needs.

Scotty,

Thanks a bunch for the compliment.

When I heard the comments ("too chewy, too dense") from my folks, I figured that the PPF, with all its superiority to the retail level flours, might have to be blended with some AP flour to reduce the protein level a bit. I had best results with a 65% hydration but when blended I thought lowering that a bit makes sense.

Anyway, Armando the guy who I have been talking pizza with on a regular basis. He's really knowledgeable but is also, unfortunately, limited in what he can do at the shop since he's not the owner.

When I'm talking the "real deal" on the San Fran level there's only two places that might be able to hold a candle to the pies & slices from NYC and that's Marcello's and Avellino. There's also Escape from NY & Arinell's but, imho, they're the runner-ups.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Rays of Prince Street in NYC? It's closed now but was hailed as the original Ray's and although I have never had the chance to eat a slice from Ray's, rumor has it that it's been one of the best in NYC.

Regarding the Thorley kiln shelf...when I bought mine it was a big step up to the American Metalcraft cordierite I had before. It holds the heat much, much better and recovers very nicely. I think it was you who suggested these guys here:

http://www.ceramicssf.com/shelves-posts.htm


Below are those slices I have used for inspiration and put mine in there, too, for comparison.  :)

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #845 on: August 24, 2012, 07:19:08 PM »
Well, you've been away for awhile, but you stepped back up to the plate with some fine looking pizza Mike. 8)

Thank you very much, Sir!  :)

I caved and gave in to the pizza craving. But the time off was necessary to get back in shape.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #846 on: August 24, 2012, 09:05:00 PM »
Mike,

Great looking pizza!  ;D  Good to see you back on the forum posting pictures of your pies.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #847 on: August 24, 2012, 09:22:31 PM »
Mike,

Great looking pizza!  ;D  Good to see you back on the forum posting pictures of your pies.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks a million! I think I'll stick around for awhile  ;D
Mike

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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #848 on: August 24, 2012, 09:27:18 PM »
Thank you very much, Sir!  :)

I caved and gave in to the pizza craving. But the time off was necessary to get back in shape.

I understand that, but sometimes it seems really appealing to just give up and weigh over 3 bucks and eat pizza 24/7

Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #849 on: August 24, 2012, 09:35:16 PM »
Norma,

Thanks a million! I think I'll stick around for awhile  ;D

Mike,

I am glad you are going to stick around for awhile.  ;D I missed your posts and pizzas here on the forum.

Norma


 

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