Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 139761 times)

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #850 on: August 24, 2012, 09:36:02 PM »
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Rays of Prince Street in NYC? It's closed now but was hailed as the original Ray's and although I have never had the chance to eat a slice from Ray's, rumor has it that it's been one of the best in NYC.

I was only able to make it to Rays on Prince once, but, from talking to other people, Ray's went through a similar descent in quality that Joes experienced.  Not the crater that the rest of NY suffered through, but still a drop.  The slice I had was solid, but not on par with any of the great slices further outside Manhattan. As you can see from the photo here:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/02/where-is-the-original-first-rays-famous-pizzeria-nyc.html?ref=title

the crumb is looking a lot like a quick, taste impaired fermentation.

Honestly, you can certainly continue to tweak your process in search of some ultimate goal, but, as far as NY style pizza goes... your fully on par or better than any of the places you have pictured, and better than 99.9% of the pizzerias in NY.  You might even have pizzatown and new park beat.  At this point, you're really only competing with yourself. Once you surpass your idols, it can become a bit of a head game, and you can start questioning yourself, but, as long as you have clear goals that you're striving for, you can continue to grow.

Btw, what kind of cheese is this?  It's hard to judge the cheese with the aid of the extra fat from pepperoni, but it looks a lot like you've got it worked out.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #851 on: August 24, 2012, 10:01:58 PM »
I was only able to make it to Rays on Prince once, but, from talking to other people, Ray's went through a similar descent in quality that Joes experienced.  Not the crater that the rest of NY suffered through, but still a drop.  The slice I had was solid, but not on par with any of the great slices further outside Manhattan. As you can see from the photo here:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/02/where-is-the-original-first-rays-famous-pizzeria-nyc.html?ref=title

the crumb is looking a lot like a quick, taste impaired fermentation.

Honestly, you can certainly continue to tweak your process in search of some ultimate goal, but, as far as NY style pizza goes... your fully on par or better than any of the places you have pictured, and better than 99.9% of the pizzerias in NY.  You might even have pizzatown and new park beat.  At this point, you're really only competing with yourself. Once you surpass your idols, it can become a bit of a head game, and you can start questioning yourself, but, as long as you have clear goals that you're striving for, you can continue to grow.

Btw, what kind of cheese is this?  It's hard to judge the cheese with the aid of the extra fat from pepperoni, but it looks a lot like you've got it worked out.

Scotty,

You may be right about the 'head games'.

It's a thing that I have where I feel it can always be a tad better. I'm no perfectionist by any stretch but as a huge pizza fan (the last few months where sheer hell  ;D) it's always a new challenge. So far, though, I think this home dough can certainly hang with the likes of Avellino or Marcello's. Don't know about Pizza Town or New park but I take your word for it, even if you can base your judgement solely on some of my pics.

I have a standing offer from Luc and Annie, the owners of Marcello's, to test my dough in their Rotoflex oven. And since they are customers of mine (currently doing a service job for them) I have to take them up on their offer. Hopefully some time soon.

The cheese, believe it or not, is the TJ's brand of low-moisture whole milk mozzarella. It has excellent melting capabilities, strings nicely, has exceptional flavor...well, for a mozzarella that is...and is on the creamy side. The pics I posted look a bit different on here (more reddish) than when I pull them up on my screen for some reason, though.

I think the next cheese I'll check out will be the Bella Rosano from Costco.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:43:14 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #852 on: August 24, 2012, 10:06:40 PM »
What is the price per LB on the TJ mozz if I may ask?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #853 on: August 24, 2012, 10:22:57 PM »
What is the price per LB on the TJ mozz if I may ask?

Jeffrey,

It sells for $4.99.
Mike

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Offline communist

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #854 on: August 27, 2012, 09:26:21 AM »
Mike, Fantastic NY pies!  As far as some critics saying "too chewy", is your mixing a factor is this?  I do a NY pie with All Trumps, but have my mixing down to 3 minutes with my Kitchen Aid ( speed one for 2 minutes, and speed 2 for one minute ).  I see you are moving the mixing time down. Perhaps if you keep the Pendelton, but just lower mix time even more?  I am interested to see your results if you try this on your steel plate.  Keep the pics coming!   Mark

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #855 on: August 27, 2012, 11:39:25 AM »
I do a NY pie with All Trumps, but have my mixing down to 3 minutes with my Kitchen Aid...

Similarly, I'm doing 3-1/2 minutes in a KitchenAid with All Trumps right now, and I may go lower. In a couple weeks, after I get real accustomed to the results of the short mix time, I may change up to an 8 or 10-minute mix, just to see how much difference it makes.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #856 on: August 29, 2012, 02:08:52 AM »
Did a 24 hour cold-rise with the same formula. Only change I made was I dropped the ADY from .3% down to .2% because I didn't want to overferment.

Here's a text I received from a friend of mine...

Quote
FWD: OMG-best pizza ever! Thin crispy crust , great toppings. Over the top! Your best crust to date!! Thx for sharing!

And she is one of my long time guinea pigs when it comes to pizza  ;D What you see in the pics is the same pie just under different lighting conditions (Kitchen and outdoors).

I think I have it dialed in, in terms of my home oven. The next task will be to test the dough in two different commercial ovens (Rotoflex & Baker's Pride) and see what happens then.

Any pointers or advice on how to adjust a dough for a commercial oven is greatly appreciated since I don't know very little about commercial ovens and their characteristics other than what I have read...

 ???

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Ev

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #857 on: August 29, 2012, 06:56:23 AM »
Looks like a mighty fine pie! :D

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #858 on: August 29, 2012, 07:23:27 AM »
Looks like a mighty fine pie! :D

Steve,

No, it's a Mikey-fine pie :-D.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #859 on: August 29, 2012, 08:01:05 AM »
Mike,

I agree that you pizza looks great.   :chef:

To explain how to change or not change your formulation for a commercial oven, it is all though testing in my opinion.  My different formulations all bake different in my deck oven and even which side of the oven that is used, or exactly how hot the deck (from opening and shutting the doors) are all what determines how the pies will bake.  Even a difference of about 25 degrees F on my deck can make a difference in how my different pies will look after they are baked.

You are lucky to be able to try a Rotoflex and a Baker’s Pride.  ;D  Do you know what temperatures they run each of the ovens?

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #860 on: August 29, 2012, 02:40:34 PM »
Steve,

No, it's a Mikey-fine pie :-D.

Peter

 I stand corrected!  :-D

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #861 on: August 30, 2012, 12:05:27 PM »
Steve,

No, it's a Mikey-fine pie :-D.

Peter

That's funny!  :-D

Thanks Peter & Steve.

Norma,

They both run their ovens at 525°F - 550°F. At least that's what I was told.
Mike

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Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #862 on: September 16, 2012, 05:07:14 AM »
Inspired by this topic and Scott's NY passion in the 'The Reinhart Dialog' I had give it a shot.

These were made using the formulation on page 1 of this topic
Quote
King Arthur BF (3 balls, 14”, 325 gr. each, Bake time: 7 mins)

587 gr. Flour (100%)
370 gr. Water (63%)
9 gr. Sea salt (1.5%)
6 gr. Olive oil (1%)
2 gr. IDY (0.3%)
Mixed by hand for 2-3 minutes, rested for 15 and hand kneaded for 12 minutes.
Then left to bulk rise for 2 days; scaled/balled and taken out about 40 minutes before baking.
Baked on a preheated cordierite stone at 550F(likely higher stone temp) for 5 minutes than removed for 1-2 minutes while the broiler heated up.
Broiled for about 40 seconds.
The cheese was Galbani low-moisture WM and a bit of some no-name provolone. Finished with strips of fresh mozzarella, added before broiling.
Sauce was jovail whole peeled tomatoes with salt, basil and oregano.

Seems these pics were too large for the built-in file attachment, here are the fickr links. Is there a way to embed them?

Due to low light they seem much darker than they were.
Three pies.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8460/7987342656_5fa8da51b3_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8295/7987335229_b11a1f80bd_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/7987341072_5e9b486631_b.jpg
Undercrust
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8306/7987340166_30b69e4596_b.jpg
Crumb
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8457/7987350452_c424748eaa_b.jpg

Anyway let me know what you think...since this is my second NY style experiment any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Spent the last few days browsing through this pizza heaven  :chef:

-Peter (another peter)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 05:09:43 AM by PetersPizza »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #863 on: September 16, 2012, 09:14:47 AM »
Anyway let me know what you think...since this is my second NY style experiment any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Looks damn good, even if it had been your thousandth experiment.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #864 on: September 16, 2012, 05:25:53 PM »
Thanks Ryan. :) I might start another topic to get some more comments. (or if a mod sees this please split my post)

-Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #865 on: January 18, 2013, 02:39:10 PM »
Back with a little project this weekend.

I've had a brief conversation here in SF with a NY-style pizza shop owner recently and he mentioned the use of yeast & baking powder/soda as a combo, claiming it produces a very light and airy crust. Now, I have heard and read about this combination before but don't really know how to go about it or what percentages we're talking here.

I was thinking to start perhaps with a 1-1.5% value for the baking powder/soda but am not really sure. Any help is appreciated.


Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #866 on: January 19, 2013, 08:15:41 AM »
Back with a little project this weekend.

I've had a brief conversation here in SF with a NY-style pizza shop owner recently and he mentioned the use of yeast & baking powder/soda as a combo, claiming it produces a very light and airy crust. Now, I have heard and read about this combination before but don't really know how to go about it or what percentages we're talking here.

I was thinking to start perhaps with a 1-1.5% value for the baking powder/soda but am not really sure. Any help is appreciated.




Mike,

I don’t know how much help this will give you, but here goes what I might understand, and I really don‘t understand a lot.

I went down the path of trying to use a chemical leavening systems in combination with yeast in the mystery dough thread for a dry mix for a pizza dough, but it got too complicated for me to understand.

When chemical leavenings are used, they are usually a combination of baking soda sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and sodium aluminum phosphate commonly referred to as SALP.  I think there are baking powders that include both.  I think I used Calumet Baking powder which is a double acting baking powder in some of my experiments, or it might have been Clabber Girl.  I would have to looked it you wanted me to.

An improvement over using just baking powder is product called WRISE.

http://pmq.com/mag/2005september-october/lehmann.php

This is one formulation for using yeast and baking powder on this PDF.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/2_1PIZZA.PDF

Another place to read about a product call Dough-Rise is at http://www.innophos.com/__sitedocs/brochures/doughrisefaq.pdf

A product called Wrise can be bought to use in combination with yeast. 

http://www.thewrightgroup.net/products/products/wrise.html

And maybe a place to purchase Wrise.

http://www.modernistpantry.com/wrise-aluminum-free.html

I think some frozen pizzas use a chemical leavening system in combination with yeast.

I did get a PDF. From Tom Lehmann, but it was too technical for me to understand.

Good luck with your experiment.  ;)

Norma


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #867 on: March 15, 2013, 08:00:08 PM »
Call me crazy...

Just got back from running an errand, stopped at Marcello's Pizza for a slice and probably had the biggest pizza dough epiphany of my life...Soft Pretzel Dough!

A sheath of crunch on the outside and inside's a soft, creamy, buttery interior.

That is what Marcello's dough/crust reminds me of.

To the T. But that also brings up a question...now what?  ???
Mike

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #868 on: March 15, 2013, 09:47:14 PM »
Essen1, if you're interested I recently made a soft pretzel dough for a "challenge" concept we had on a facebook page. The pretzel was delicious and very simple to make, my recipe was 3 cups bread flour, 1/4 cup of inactive sourdough culture (just for flavor) 1 teaspoon IDY, 1 teaspoon salt, 7 oz. filtered water. It made a damn good soft pretzel and I'm sure you could tweak it for a pizza dough.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #869 on: March 15, 2013, 10:19:13 PM »
Essen1, if you're interested I recently made a soft pretzel dough for a "challenge" concept we had on a facebook page. The pretzel was delicious and very simple to make, my recipe was 3 cups bread flour, 1/4 cup of inactive sourdough culture (just for flavor) 1 teaspoon IDY, 1 teaspoon salt, 7 oz. filtered water. It made a damn good soft pretzel and I'm sure you could tweak it for a pizza dough.

Thank you, Sir...but damn...that will just get me back into my pizza dough experimentation mode.  :drool:

lol

I have some Tartine bread baking lined up for this weekend but I will definitely try this one and report back. You don't have the Baker's % by any chance, do you?
Mike

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #870 on: March 15, 2013, 10:32:31 PM »
No, I wasn't to fussy with the measurements, no baker's percentages, just wing it and you should be fine, I do all my dough by feel these days, can't stand pulling out a scale to make pizza dough which I could do blindfolded! >:D
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #871 on: March 16, 2013, 10:03:43 PM »
Guess I'll be winging it some time this coming week. I'll keep you posted.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #872 on: March 16, 2013, 10:47:32 PM »
Mike,

I really don’t know what Marcello’s pizza tastes like, but many places where I live make pretzel buns for sandwiches.  I think they taste like pizza dough crusts in a way and also like a soft pretzel.  If you also look up what bretzels are, they are also something like soft pretzels, but are really more like bread.

I don’t think this will really help you, but DNA Dan and I were playing around with pretzel crust pizzas.  I tried one pretzel crust pizza at Reply 41 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg93738.html#msg93738 and DNA Dan also played around with a pretzel crust pizza at Reply 54 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg94463.html#msg94463 in the same thread.

This is just a guess, but maybe they might use some kind of malt in their dough.

Best of luck in your search for a pizza crust that tastes like Marcello’s.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #873 on: March 18, 2013, 04:46:27 PM »
Mike,

I really don’t know what Marcello’s pizza tastes like, but many places where I live make pretzel buns for sandwiches.  I think they taste like pizza dough crusts in a way and also like a soft pretzel.  If you also look up what bretzels are, they are also something like soft pretzels, but are really more like bread.

I don’t think this will really help you, but DNA Dan and I were playing around with pretzel crust pizzas.  I tried one pretzel crust pizza at Reply 41 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg93738.html#msg93738 and DNA Dan also played around with a pretzel crust pizza at Reply 54 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg94463.html#msg94463 in the same thread.

This is just a guess, but maybe they might use some kind of malt in their dough.

Best of luck in your search for a pizza crust that tastes like Marcello’s.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for the links. I've also heard that baking powder has the same effect on the softness of the crust but I have yet to verify that notion.

I could be wrong, though.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #874 on: March 18, 2013, 06:12:22 PM »
Norma,

I've also heard that baking powder has the same effect on the softness of the crust but I have yet to verify that notion.

I could be wrong, though.

Mike,

I look forward to your results if you try baking powder.

Norma