Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 81715 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #260 on: November 26, 2009, 02:54:33 PM »
Mike,
Your pictures of your whole experiment look really great!  It's nice to see how you detailed everything you did and the photos were great, too.  :)  The pizzas looks great, also.
Nice experiment you and Peter put together.
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #261 on: November 26, 2009, 03:15:02 PM »
Mike,
Your pictures of your whole experiment look really great!  It's nice to see how you detailed everything you did and the photos were great, too.  :)  The pizzas looks great, also.
Nice experiment you and Peter put together.
Norma

Thank you, Norma!

Peter's help is invaluable, to say the least. And it's fun to have his experience behind a little project like this one here.  :chef:
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #262 on: November 26, 2009, 03:18:55 PM »
Mike,

I agree with Norma. Thanks for posting your results.

I configured everything to fit the window that you specified. If you decide at some point that you would like to extend that window by a couple of days, the most direct way to do that would be to go back to the original dough formulation (total dough formulation), decrease the amount of total formula yeast, decide on how much poolish to use (say, in the range of 20-80% of the total formula water), decide on the prefermentation period of the poolish, make the final dough, and either ferment in bulk or divide and scale, and refrigerate, with the understanding that any rest periods used during the final mix will initiate fermentation and shorten the window if not accounted for in the prior steps. In a commercial application, the pizza operator would make the dough preparation fit the hours of the business in which pizzas are to be made. The risk of extending the window of usability in your case should you decide to go that way is that the dough balls may be ready after say, three days, but not quite fermented enough after 18 hours. In the final analysis, some experimentation would be necessary to find the combination that works best for the particular application.

On the matter of the crust coloration, widespreadpizza (Marc) may be onto something with his questions on the Stone-Buhr flour. I was not able to find much about the malting of that flour but the flour does seem to be a high-quality flour with high protein levels and apparently no additives. Whether that excludes the usual vitamin package and barley malt is hard to say at this point but if the flour is unmalted, then that takes us back to our earlier discussion about using diastatic barley malt to extract more natural sugars from the flour (the damaged starch).

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #263 on: November 26, 2009, 03:25:31 PM »
I mentioned in my earlier post that I asked my neighbor for serious feedback on the entire pizza, from the crust to the amount of toppings, the cheese and the flavor of the sauce and here's what he had to say...

Crust

Perfect!
- great texture
- very unique and artisan
- great flavor
- a fair amount of chew and crunch

- the center needs help. Was a bit too soggy and didn't support the toppings too well

Sauce

Excellent!
- great flavor
- tastes of real tomato sauce and not some watered down version of it
- almost like a high-end sauce found in professional, elite shops
- best sauce so far

Cheese

Fantastic! (TJ's mozzarella)
- great flavor combination
- liked the combo of the two mozzarellas
- covered the pie nicely

Toppings

Pepperoni: Very good. Not greasy and didn't stain the cheese. Nice flavor

Crimini Mushrooms: Good. Perhaps 10% less of it next time. Too much moisture which contributed to the soggy middle


Overall rating: A-


So far he's tried four of my pizzas and he said that this was by far the best to date. I beg to differ but then again, maybe I'm too critical of myself  ;D

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #264 on: November 26, 2009, 03:35:17 PM »
Mike,

I agree with Norma. Thanks for posting your results.

I configured everything to fit the window that you specified. If you decide at some point that you would like to extend that window by a couple of days, the most direct way to do that would be to go back to the original dough formulation (total dough formulation), decrease the amount of total formula yeast, decide on how much poolish to use (say, in the range of 20-80% of the total formula water), decide on the prefermentation period of the poolish, make the final dough, and either ferment in bulk or divide and scale, and refrigerate, with the understanding that any rest periods used during the final mix will initiate fermentation and shorten the window if not accounted for in the prior steps. In a commercial application, the pizza operator would make the dough preparation fit the hours of the business in which pizzas are to be made. The risk of extending the window of usability in your case should you decide to go that way is that the dough balls may be ready after say, three days, but not quite fermented enough after 18 hours. In the final analysis, some experimentation would be necessary to find the combination that works best for the particular application.

On the matter of the crust coloration, widespreadpizza (Marc) may be onto something with his questions on the Stone-Buhr flour. I was not able to find much about the malting of that flour but the flour does seem to be a high-quality flour with high protein levels and apparently no additives. Whether that excludes the usual vitamin package and barley malt is hard to say at this point but if the flour is unmalted, then that takes us back to our earlier discussion about using diastatic barley malt to extract more natural sugars from the flour (the damaged starch).

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the nice words! And Happy Thanksgiving!

I'll give it another shot on Monday, omitting the rest periods altogether during mixing and see if that makes the dough's window of use more extendable, meaning stretching the window to two days. But I guess that would mean I'd have to re-ball the dough on Day One and refrigerate overnight to be used the next day?

I'm thinking maybe making two different batches after the holidays, using a different poolish percentages this time but doing a bulk and individual rise respectively.

The SB flour is excellent but I noticed when I used it alone, the crust was a bit hard. I read on The Fresh Loaf that someone suggested to soften it with AP flour. I'm thinking using maybe Caputo 00 for that.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4835/another-flour-question
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #265 on: November 26, 2009, 03:56:58 PM »
Mikw,

For a cold fermented NY style dough, I prefer to do the division and scaling up front. The dough is easier to handle and shape at that point and the dough balls might start to cool down a bit faster. In all my reading, I have never seen a case where someone specializing in the NY style fermented the dough in bulk.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours also.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #266 on: December 12, 2009, 02:53:56 AM »
Mikw,

For a cold fermented NY style dough, I prefer to do the division and scaling up front. The dough is easier to handle and shape at that point and the dough balls might start to cool down a bit faster. In all my reading, I have never seen a case where someone specializing in the NY style fermented the dough in bulk.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours also.

Peter

Petew,

Na zdorovje!  ;D

I hope you and your family had a great Thanksgiving, too!  :chef:


Anyway, I know that most pros divide and scale the dough up front but if someone achieves decent results with the bulk rise, wouldn't it be something worth exploring and perhaps transferable into a commercial setting?

On the other hand, commercial settings are extremely different from what we have and do at home and it might not work at all.

But besides all this, I went down a completely new avenue for me, something I call "Vital Wheat Gluten Boulevard". It was born out of a couple of posts I have seen here, mainly the KASL posts and a discussion of high-gluten, commercial flours, so I thought instead of ordering a whole 55lb bag of KASL and paying immense shipping charges, maybe the Red Mill VWG will do the trick of upping the protein of the Stone Buhr and KABF.

And holy cow, it did!

I don't' have the time to write a full report right now since it's late and I need some shut-eye because I'll be working tomorrow but I can tell you, I have never had an easier dough to work with - I could have easily stretched it until the cows come home - and the VWG, it seems, took care of the coloration issue I experienced over the last few weeks, which frankly pissed me off to no end. I did a test bake beforehand since I had no idea what to expect with the addition of VWG but I guess the pics speak for themselves.

I'll post a detailed formula, mixing regimen and all the other good stuff tomorrow night. The few pics I took have to do it for now...

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2009, 02:58:20 AM »
And here's a pic of the initial "test bake" dough.

I could have shipped this one to Colorado to "Balloon Boy" in Larimer County...no?  ;D

Mike

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Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2009, 07:37:33 AM »
The slice with pepperoni please  :-D

Great coloration Mike. So you think it's lack of gluten? what was the protein % on the last flour you used?

Online norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2009, 07:51:00 AM »
Mike,
Great looking pies!  :)  Nice coloration of the crust.  It's amazing that using different flours give so many different variables.  Good to see how your experiments are doing.
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #270 on: December 12, 2009, 07:17:29 PM »
Here are the details on the VWG procedure I tried a couple of days ago.

Like I said, I was reading the thread on the KASL flour and its protein content of 14.2% which is apparently used in NY-style pies the majority of the time, excluding the “elite” pies such as Totonno’s or Grimaldi’s.

Since I didn’t know much about the VWG flour, I did a search here on the forum and found some helpful info in this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9243.msg79929.html#msg79929 and Peter’s reply pointed me in the right direction. I followed his suggestions and ran my formula through the Lehmann & RN’s Mass Calculator and came up with the following formula in order to get to the 14.2% of the KASL flour:

685 gr Flour (555 KABF & 130 VWG Flour) (100%)

431 gr Water (63%)

14 gr Organic sugar (2%)

10gr Sea salt (1.5%)

5gr Olive oil (.7%)

2 gr IDY (.3%)

3 dough balls @ 382 gr each/14” pizza

I sifted the two flours together, added the water to the bowl, 50% of the flour was sifted in and all the yeast, making a poolish/sponge. I let that sit for about two hours until it had a nice bubbly surface and then added the oil, sifted the rest of the flour in, added the salt and then the sugar. Using the dough hook, I mixed everything together until there was no more raw flaw visible and then gave the dough a rest period of 20 mins to give the flour time to become fully hydrated.

After 20 mins I did a knead period of 10 mins, pulled the dough out of the mixing bowl, did a couple of fold-overs on the counter and into the bowl it went for a 20 hr cold-rise and a 4 hr room-temp rise the next day.
The dough was divided right after the cold-rise into 3 dough balls at 382 gr each and the individual balls did a room-temp rise of another 4 hrs before use.

Like I said in my previous post, I was amazed how easily the dough stretched. I used one dough ball just for fun and stretched it until it tore and it was way beyond the 14” mark. I’d have to guess but I’d say it was almost 20” and extremely thin. Too bad my oven isn’t big enough for that size because I would have slapped it on the stone! The second dough ball was used for a “test bake”. The third,...well I posted some pics above. The crust was very light, airy but also had a good chew and crunch to it. I think with a little tweaking here and there it could become one of my favorites so far.


Saad,

I don't know if it was the VWG or the amount of sugar that contributed to the nice coloration. My chemical knowledge is limited in order to explain it well enough. maybe others can chime in.

Norma,

It is amazing. I was stunned, actually, about how the dough's structure and texture improved with the added VWG.

Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #271 on: December 17, 2009, 04:15:08 PM »
I'm looking to experiment a bit along these lines with VWG.

When I use the mixed mass tool at http://tools.foodsim.com/ I used the following values:

Substance A: 12% (per the bag of flour)
Substance B: 80% (per the bag of VWG)

When I key in a target protein of 14.2%, and a weight of 700g, it returns 677g for the flour and 22g for the gluten flour.

When I look at Essen1's numbers:
Quote
685 gr Flour (555 KABF & 130 VWG Flour) (100%)


His proportion is far different than mine.

Am I using the tool correctly? Hope someone can help.

Thx,
Josh
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:04:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #272 on: December 17, 2009, 04:30:33 PM »
Josh,

Your numbers are correct. I don't know what brand of vital wheat gluten Mike is using but I believe that his numbers are not correct no matter which brand he is using. It is also possible that his post contains typographical errors. 

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #273 on: December 17, 2009, 04:41:23 PM »
In Reply 266 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg85349/topicseen.html#msg85349, Mike mentions the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten. On that basis, if he is truly using a combination of KABF and Bob's Red Mill VWG, his numbers would be 668.51 grams KABF and 16.49 grams VWG. To get his numbers, the target protein content would be around 24.5%. I'm sure Mike will tell us what he did.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #274 on: December 17, 2009, 05:01:12 PM »
In Reply 266 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg85349/topicseen.html#msg85349, Mike mentions the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten. On that basis, if he is truly using a combination of KABF and Bob's Red Mill VWG, his numbers would be 668.51 grams KABF and 16.49 grams VWG. To get his numbers, the target protein content would be around 24.5%. I'm sure Mike will tell us what he did.

Peter


Peter & Josh,

I was actually wondering the same thing over the last few days, because the amount of VWG seemed very high to me. I haven't had a chance to run the numbers again but will do so tonight and see what comes up.

What I did was I followed the procedure Peter laid out here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9243.msg79929.html#msg79929  but maybe I entered one of the values incorrectly.

Either way, I didn't mean to confuse anybody  :(
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #275 on: December 17, 2009, 05:05:12 PM »
Mike,

No harm done. However, if the numbers you posted are correct, that raises the issue of how much the VWG contributed to the fiinal crust coloration.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #276 on: December 17, 2009, 05:41:06 PM »
Peter,

I just ran the numbers from my previous post above again and I did actually make a mistake somewhere. The correct amount of VWG should have been 16.5 gr instead of 130gr!! 

That, now, explains a whole lot of other things that went on with my dough at that time but nevertheless it did give me a heck of an improved coloration, though  ::)

I'll be making the dough again tonight, this time with the correct numbers and see how it turns out.
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #277 on: December 17, 2009, 05:50:56 PM »
Mike - I'm actually trying your recipe too, with the added VWG to give 14.2% protein.

What bake temps/times have you been working with?

Josh

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #278 on: December 17, 2009, 06:18:45 PM »
Josh,

The temps I use vary depending on how long I give the oven and stone to heat up. But it's usually around 600°F, give or take a few. Stone on the lowest rack.
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #279 on: December 17, 2009, 06:30:35 PM »
Stone on the lowest rack. Hmmm. This is an area I have trouble with. I've found that when my stone is on the lowest rack, that the bottom of the pizza cooks too fast. My element is on the bottom of the oven, and my broiler won't turn on if the oven itself is over a certain temperature, so I kind of have to get it right first time.

When I go over 550 degrees - i.e. turn on the cleaning cycle - is when I notice this problem. I've had the bottom of pizzas go black in less than 90 seconds, when the top crust is not even started to brown!


 



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