Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 81914 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #280 on: December 17, 2009, 07:18:41 PM »
Stone on the lowest rack. Hmmm. This is an area I have trouble with. I've found that when my stone is on the lowest rack, that the bottom of the pizza cooks too fast. My element is on the bottom of the oven, and my broiler won't turn on if the oven itself is over a certain temperature, so I kind of have to get it right first time.

When I go over 550 degrees - i.e. turn on the cleaning cycle - is when I notice this problem. I've had the bottom of pizzas go black in less than 90 seconds, when the top crust is not even started to brown!

Josh,

I have the same set-up as you, element on the bottom. But I don't have a cleaning cycle on my oven, unfortunately. I did re-calibrate it a bit, though, to get 30°F more out of it. But it makes sense that the bottoms of your pies cook too fast or even burn when you're using the cleaning cycle with the stone on the lowest rack. I'd move it to the middle.

However, most pizza operators I've spoken with, and who make NY-style pizzas in my area, say that they usually bake at 550° and that's in commercial ovens.

My bake time is around 8-9 mins.
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #281 on: December 17, 2009, 08:13:45 PM »
Thanks I will try that, and post some pics if I remember.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #282 on: December 18, 2009, 07:29:22 AM »
Thanks I will try that, and post some pics if I remember.

Josh,

This is serious stuff. Place your camera where you plan to put your pizza when it comes out of the oven ;D.

Peter


Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #283 on: December 18, 2009, 03:14:19 PM »
Most of the time I plan to take pics and do remember when the pizza is out of the oven but still...  ;D

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #284 on: December 18, 2009, 03:18:52 PM »
Saad,

I may be paraphrasing ThunderStik a bit, but I believe his position is that if there are no photos, the pizza doesn't exist.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #285 on: December 18, 2009, 03:28:18 PM »
I agree but to me, it exists in my stomach no doubt  ;D

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #286 on: December 18, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »
Josh,

This is serious stuff. Place your camera where you plan to put your pizza when it comes out of the oven ;D.

Peter


I second that.

It would be nice to see how one my formula turns out with others.

Peter, I have currently have a new dough in the fridge with the adjusted amount of VWG. It should be good to go tonight. I'll report back on it because I'm anxious to see if the coloration is going to stay improved.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 05:07:57 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #287 on: December 19, 2009, 05:08:09 PM »
I made 3x 14 inch Pizza's today using the high gluten flour blend. I really enjoyed it, and quite possibly the tastiest crust I've made to date.

I actually did a two-day cold ferment. It didn't over-rise or anything. This dough was very easy to work with and stretched to 14 inches with very little effort at all.

Thanks Mike for the recipe.

-- Josh

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #288 on: December 19, 2009, 05:43:53 PM »
Josh,

Looking good!

Thanks for posting the pics. I got to admit, I haven't done a 2-day fermentation with the VWG formula but then again, I just started looking into it, too.

I'm curious, though, what was your bake temp and time?
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #289 on: December 19, 2009, 07:15:04 PM »
Quote
I'm curious, though, what was your bake temp and time?

8 minutes @ 550F

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #290 on: December 21, 2009, 05:13:24 PM »
As Peter and Josh have pointed out in one of their previous posts, my flour and VWG numbers were somewhat screwed up. I still don't know where I made the mistake when I used RN's food calculator but my hunch is that I must have filled out one of the fields incorrectly.

Anyway, I got the right numbers and made another batch over the weekend with the same formula as I posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg85400.html#msg85400 but with the adjusted flour & VWG amounts.

It should read 669 gr of KABF and 16 gr of VWG to get to a total of 685 gr of flour used. Again, I apologize for the confusion. My fault and my apologies.

I also used Grande whole milk mozzarella from a local supermarket but I wasn't really that impressed. It was very oily to say the least. And for the price of almost 9 bucks for a pound I think I'll stick with my trusted cheese combo from TJ's.

The first pie, the Grande one, did a 24 hr fermentation, whereas the second (salami) did a 48 hr fermentation. Both were very good and I think I have finally gotten to the point where I can say I'm getting closer to my crust goal with the added VWG. Both doughs were very easy to work with, had decent oven spring and a beautiful lightness to it without losing its chewiness and crunch. However, I think the hydration was a bit too high at 63% so I'm currently working on a 61% version.

The bake time for both was 9 mins with the stone on the lowest rack but I skipped the additional minute under the broiler because I didn't think they needed it. I like the coloration of both pies compared to my previous pies but I still haven't really figured out if it's actually the VWG contributing to it or the switching back to the organic sugar.

Overall, I really liked the structure of both crusts and even my GF said, when she tried the second pie yesterday, that it was my best crust to date. I asked her to be honest about it and that constructive criticism is always welcome but she stuck to her assessment.

If the 61% hydration crust turns out well, I think I could take that one to Marcello's and have them test it in their Rotoflex oven to see how it holds up. I just haven't had the time to get that little test on the road mainly because business was crazy during the holidays but i think it's time to take Luc, the owner, up on her offer...perhaps after the holidays when they aren't so busy.

I will report back on the dough formula I'm working on now.

Happy Holidays to everyone and Happy baking, guys...and girls  ;D

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #291 on: December 21, 2009, 05:14:17 PM »
And the Salami pie...

Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #292 on: December 21, 2009, 06:40:07 PM »
Mike - looks good. Your crust is decidedly browner than mine. What was your bake time? Since our doughs were effectively the same and we used the same domestic setup, I can only guess that you baked for quite a bit longer than I did...

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #293 on: December 21, 2009, 07:48:00 PM »
Quote
The bake time for both was 9 mins with the stone on the lowest rack but I skipped the additional minute under the broiler because I didn't think they needed it. I like the coloration of both pies compared to my previous pies but I still haven't really figured out if it's actually the VWG contributing to it or the switching back to the organic sugar.

Josh,

The above is from my previous post. Bake time was 9 mins @ 610°F.  :chef:
Mike

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Offline torontonian

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #294 on: December 21, 2009, 10:35:58 PM »
Thanks Mike.

I'm wondering if I'm baking my pizzas long enough. A lot of the pizzas I've seen produced on this site (most of them) seem to be more baked than I usually do. I will try leaving mine in longer to see if I prefer a crispier crust.

-- Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #295 on: December 21, 2009, 11:31:12 PM »
Mike,
Your pizzas look delicious.  :)  Your light and airy rims are amazing. 
I enjoy following on what you are doing on this thread.
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #296 on: December 22, 2009, 06:52:40 PM »
Thanks Mike.

I'm wondering if I'm baking my pizzas long enough. A lot of the pizzas I've seen produced on this site (most of them) seem to be more baked than I usually do. I will try leaving mine in longer to see if I prefer a crispier crust.

-- Josh

I'd see if I could crank up the temp to 600°F by using a longer heat up time. I think if you just use a longer baking time you might have to up the hydration to 64% to avoid drying the dough out too much.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #297 on: December 22, 2009, 07:02:56 PM »
Mike,
Your pizzas look delicious.  :)  Your light and airy rims are amazing. 
I enjoy following on what you are doing on this thread.
Norma

Thanks, Norma.

I really like the characteristics of the last doughs I made since adding the VWG with the exception of the one with the wrong numbers  ;D
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #298 on: January 05, 2010, 01:00:35 AM »
On Dec. 12th , I posted that I had added some Vital Wheat Gluten (VWG) to my dough formula.

Well, as some of you know, the first attempt didn’t go so well because I screwed up my calculations and the numbers I came up with for the VWG were high..well…very high, to say the least. And if it weren’t for member Torontonian (Josh) and Pete-zza (Peter), I’d probably be still working with those numbers.

So, thanks guys!  ;D

Fortunately, I have since gotten a handle on things and with the addition of a new stand mixer, the Cuisinart SM-55BC, I decided to venture a bit more into the whole VWG thing in combination with the King Arthur and the Stone Buhr Bread flours. The reason I’m adding VWG is because I’m reluctant, and maybe a bit cheap, to order a 55 lb bag of high-gluten flour such as the KASL or the Imperial from Honeyville. The All Trumps is off limits to me personally, since it’s bromated. I know that KASL also comes in 3 lb bags but shipping is a lot more than the flour itself. At least where I’m at. So adding VWG was the next logical thing to me. And I’m glad I did. The feedback to my latest crusts has been extremely good.

I continued to use Peter’s advice, formula and protocol of using a 3-hour preferment, incorporated parts of Evelyne Slomon’s mixing suggestions she posted on the PMQTT board, such as adding the oil last when incorporating a 20 min rest period, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=825&highlight=totonnos#p842 and my own.

I made, and am currently still working on, several batches, for four pies each, at hydration levels of 61, 62 and 63 percent respectively. All received a 24-hr cold-rise (bulk) and some of them received a 36-hr cold-rise (individual dough balls due to scaling) because I didn’t use them until the next day. The 61% batch turned out to be a bit too much on the “rustic” side even though the crust tasted amazingly good. But it lacked somewhat in the oven spring department. That changed when I used the 62% hydration level. The crust featured nice oven spring, was chewy, airy and crunchy at the same time. I really liked that one, almost to a point where I was ready to say “I got it!”. Others who have tasted the 62% crust said not to change a thing anymore. But I thought I’d give it another shot and try a 63% hydration while keeping all other variables the same. That’s what I’m working on now.

A word about the mixers. After using the KA Classic 4.5qt for the last two years I must say that it stands no chance against the Cuisinart 5.5qt mixer. The Cuisinart just mixes more thoroughly, the slow-start feature is great and the fold option is even better. Not to mention the timer and auto shut-off. No more looking at clocks or setting oven timers in order to prevent over-kneading the dough. The Cuisinart is simply a great machine and lots of fun to work with.

On to the current formula I’m using. This one starts with the 61% hydration. However, that is the only variable that has been changed. All the other ones have been consistent. The mixing regimen and poolish is as follows:

3-hr Poolish (in order of ingredients added)

Total amount of water
Total amount of yeast
50% of the sugar
50% of total amount of flour (sifted in)

Dissolve sugar & yeast in 95 ° F water. Stir with a wire whisk. Sift in the flour and, using the paddle attachment, mix everything together. Let sit for 3 hours.

Final mix


Add the rest of the sugar, all the salt and sift in remaining flour. Using the dough hook, mix and knead everything together until no raw flour is visible any longer. Rest for 20 mins. This step is crucial to get the flour properly hydrated. After 20 mins, start kneading again and let the oil run down the sides of the bowl and knead into the dough. Knead on Speed 2 for about 10-12 mins. The dough came off the hook at around 82°F. A 2-minute hand kneading on the bench followed before it went into a slightly oiled bowl, got covered with plastic wrap and then was put into the fridge.

Formula 61%

Flour (100%):       902.53 g  |  31.84 oz | 1.99 lbs
Water (61%):       550.54 g  |  19.42 oz | 1.21 lbs
IDY (.7%):         6.32 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.1 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Salt (2%):       18.05 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.23 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
Oil (1%):                 9.03 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):       13.54 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.13 tbsp

Total (166.2%):   1500 g | 52.91 oz | 3.31 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:      375 g | 13.23 oz | 0.83 lbs

The amount of VWG added was 2.5% of the total weight of the flour, IF my calculations are correct. So for a total of 903 gr (rounded up) it would be 22 gr of VWG and 881 gr of KABF. I calculated this by using Red November’s Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/.

All pies were baked at 600° F for 8 mins, give or take a minute or two here and there.

Below are some pics of the latest sausage pie and a plain cheese pie…


« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:03:12 PM by Pete-zza »
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #299 on: January 05, 2010, 06:42:42 AM »
Mike,
All I can say is WOW..you pizzas look fabulous.  :chef:  Thanks for posting the recipe.  I love your airy crust.  This is one of my favorite threads and to see how you have evolved in each step is interesting.
Thanks for posting pictures.
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!