Author Topic: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white  (Read 12126 times)

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Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2008, 10:19:49 PM »
why do the instructions above say 16 hours instead of the 12 in the lehman recipe?


Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2008, 10:25:26 PM »
jconk,

I know what yeast is.. everyone I know that has a pizza shop uses the same block yeast they dont use these other long shelf like yeasts that some home users have.  I never heard them refer to it as anything but just yeast so I didn't know which of those three types we use.

As far as a digital scale I said I dont have one I only have a basic scale that measures up to 3 pounds but not digitally so I cant be precise down to the .1 and I would have to weigh it.

Taking the temperature of the dough I dont know any pizza shop owners that have one or take the temp of their dough.. I figured it was some sort of instant reading thermometer I just didn't know if there was a certain kind I had to buy.


Im not very experienced but I have alot of people who are working with/for me.  They just dont have any recipies they have never had their own places our sauce recipe is pretty set just we dont know that much about making ny style pizza we dont have much of it where im from.

Thanks for the good wishes Ill let you know how these different doughs turnout.

Kevin

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2008, 10:33:13 PM »
why do the instructions above say 16 hours instead of the 12 in the lehman recipe?

Kevin,

I have no idea. Usually when Tom Lehmann talks generally about fermentation times, he uses 16 hours. I don't think I ever used 12 hours with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. It has always been longer, usually a minimum of 24 hours.

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2008, 10:50:51 PM »
what if i can only get 12-13 hours in the cooler do you think this will greatly effect the flavor of the dough?

Im gonna make it at 7am and ill try to push dinner at the shop till 8pm

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2008, 10:54:35 PM »
ill save some and make it the next day for lunch and go by that.. it will be about 24-30 hours.


Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2008, 10:59:34 PM »
http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52



This will prevent excessive drying of the dough balls.
The dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results. To use the dough balls, remove a quantity from the cooler and allow them to warm at room temperature for approximately 2-3 hours. The dough can then be shaped into skins, or shaped into pans for proofing. Unused dough can remain at room temperature (covered to prevent drying) for up to 6 hours after removal from the cooler.


It says 12 hours on his pmq recipe thats why I was hoping twelve would be ok.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2008, 07:07:33 AM »
Kevin,

Twelve hours may be the minimum recommended fermentation time, but anything longer than that is better because of the increased biochemical activity. It is that activity that is responsible for the ultimate flavors, color, texture and aroma of the finished crust. You can't collapse a fermentation that takes several days into a few hour room temperature fermentation and expect the same results. If that were possible, everyone would be doing it. Unless your tastebuds are so acclimated to a short term crust that you won't like a longer fermented crust, I think you should see differences between the various dough formulations that you will be testing.

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2008, 07:54:58 AM »
I couldnt get a digital scale or digital thermometer and I want to make sure I do it correctly.  My new plan is to buy those 2 things today make the sauce either this afternoon or tommorrow and eat 16-24 hours after so I make sure im getting the full fermentation that way I can really compare it to "emergency dough."

I will keep the forum updated and im getting a digital camera to take pictures of the different ones but it probably wont be till fri night till I cook the fermented.

I am going to do the emergency recipe you gave me tonight just for something to eat.


Offline JConk007

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2008, 08:35:46 AM »
Good morning Tekari,
Glad you are getting some tools of the trade, The camera is also key, the people here (prob not me) will be more able to help you out with the product if they can see the results, obviously we  cant taste it :( Tools are great for the test batches but I can honesly say I have no experience with an 80 Qt mixer? dont fall in! and I am not sure what 1 gram does for a batch like that. I think youo will get a "feel" for it when you come up withyur final formulation.  As for the fermentation I feel it is a must. I have allways done overnight rise and recently I had to let it go 3 days Yum! I really did notice a difference in the taste and structure.
So if you can, I would save a piece or 2 from the test batch of the emergency from tonight. Reheat on the deck then do a blindfold test when the others come out, really get those taste buds going
Happy testing
Again hope all goes well for you and your quest for the perfect pie!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com


Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2008, 10:17:48 AM »
Yea 1 gram def wouldn't do anything in an 80qt batch.. im only gonna make enought for it to get mixed with the hook.

I got a digital thermometer one i can just throw right in the bucket of water and it shows the temp.. and adjusts as the temperature drops so I know the exact temp of the water as i put it in the mixer bowl. Good stuff!

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2008, 03:51:59 PM »
Pete,

I noticed on pmq recipe bank the lehman recipie calls for olive oil and not vegtable oil .. you recommend I use olive oil correct?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2008, 04:19:20 PM »
I noticed on pmq recipe bank the lehman recipie calls for olive oil and not vegtable oil .. you recommend I use olive oil correct?

Kevin,

I forgot that Tom said olive oil. So, yes, you can use olive oil. That won't change the numbers in the dough formulations I gave you in any material way because vegetable oil and olive oil have almost identical weights. I will revise the dough formulations I gave to so that they say olive oil. When I use olive oil in my NY style dough, I usually use a light olive oil like the Classico oil that comes in the bottle with the yellow label. I once advised a member who was also a pizza operator to use a pomace olive oil, mainly because of cost. He had been using extra virgin olive oil. He made the switch and said that he couldn't detect a difference. So, he saved money by making the switch. Another possibility in your case is to use olive oil in the dough and wipe the dough balls with a cheaper oil, like ordinary vegetable oil.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2008, 04:51:47 PM »
hi,
i plan on using the pmq link posted above to learn to make nyc style pizza. it says to proof the dough for 12 hrs, if i proof for longer in the fridge, the dough will be better? or must i follow a different recipe for a 3 day proof?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2008, 05:22:30 PM »
i plan on using the pmq link posted above to learn to make nyc style pizza. it says to proof the dough for 12 hrs, if i proof for longer in the fridge, the dough will be better? or must i follow a different recipe for a 3 day proof?

koloa101,

If you are referring to the dough recipe at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52, then the answer is yes in my opinion. So long as you use water at a temperature that will achieve a finished dough temperature of about 75-80 degrees if you are using a standard home refrigerator or about 80-85 degrees F if you are using a commercial cooler, you should be able to use the dough up to three days. Beyond that, Tom Lehmann suggests adding a bit of sugar. You will notice in the instructions portion of the recipe there is reference to sugar, but none is specified in the recipe itself. That was an oversight. Normally, the amount of sugar that Tom Lehmann recommends for a dough that is to be held beyond three days is about 1-2%. When I follow Tom's recipe this time of year, where my kitchen room temperature hovers around 65 degrees F, I use a bit more yeast (0.40% IDY) and I use warmer water (around 95-100 degrees F) to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F. That is based on using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. With a commercial mixer, like a Hobart mixer, I would have to use a water temperature of about 85 degrees F under the same conditions because a Hobart mixer adds more heat to the dough than my KitchenAid mixer.

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2008, 06:49:42 PM »
Extra virgin olive oil is very expensive I know that.. is the classico olive oil significantly cheaper? Ill def take your recommendation of using vegtable oil on the dough balls when you cross stack them thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 06:55:42 PM »
Extra virgin olive oil is very expensive I know that.. is the classico olive oil significantly cheaper? Ill def take your recommendation of using vegtable oil on the dough balls when you cross stack them thanks!

Kevin,

I use the Classico mainly because I can get it in most supermarkets, and it is cheaper than a good extra virgin olive oil. There are other brands that I suspect are just as good. If I were a pizza professional, I would check with my foodservice company to find something equivalent.

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2009, 10:28:40 PM »
Pete,

Sorry it took me so long to reply.  I had alot of things going on with my pizzeria (still not open yet though!).  I really liked the recipe without the oil that you provided as opposed to the "emergency dough".  I now have scrapped the idea of going with a fast rise dough and have really learned to love the lehman recipe you have provided.  Ive been using an 18 oz doughball for 16" pizza which gives a thickness that I am looking for.   the crust was cripsy yet chewy on the inside (cooked with a 1 1/2" stone at 550 degrees).

Now im just working on making my sauce better!

thanks for all your help,

Kevin


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2009, 10:50:31 PM »
Kevin,

I'm glad to hear that everything worked out well with the dough. I was wondering which version you decided on.

It will be interesting to see how the recipe works in your commercial oven setting as opposed to your home oven setting. From what I have read, when pizza operators use their store doughs in their home ovens, the results are quite different. I would imagine that the reverse is true also. If so, you may have to do some tweaking.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2009, 11:01:08 PM »
Kevin,

I did a search at the PMQ Think Tank and found this thread discussing using a dough made at home but baked in a pizzeria oven: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=32504#32504.

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2009, 01:32:58 PM »
all these different doughs you gave me were mixed in a hobart 80 qt mixer.. cooked in a blodgett 1048 gas fired oven 1 1/2" stone deck at 550 degrees.

I have never made a pizza in my home so what you gave me is going to work out fine!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2009, 01:55:39 PM »
Kevin,

That's great. I mistakenly thought that you were doing some testing at home using your home oven before using a commercial oven.

Out of curiosity, what convinced you not to go with an emergency type dough?

Peter

Offline Tekari

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Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2009, 11:13:19 PM »
Peter,

For one it is very inconsistent.  Using that much yeast and really warm water.. with varying room temperatures I always felt like it was a crapshoot.  With the lehman dough you gave me its exactly the same everytime.  I think that the fermented dough had a better texture and just overall people seemed to like it alot better.  Another plus is that is actually stays longer.  The quick though although quick is no good after 4-6 hours out so its harder to plan.  With this dough I can make it during slow times.. its ready the next day and i just take it out 2 hours or so before I need it as I need it throughout the day.

Thanks again for your help with this.. I finnally have a dough I am confident in.  Now I just gotta finalize the sauce.

Kevin

Offline Tekari

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Pete,

I am revisiting he formula without oil that you gave me for winter version. You used 1.2% that was because i was abou 55 degrees in the cold building I was making the pizza.  Now I am working in a warmer room temperature 60-65 degrees.. how much lower of a percentage would you recommend I use?  What about when its 85 degrees or higher this summer in the kitchen? I was thinking of doing .75 for it being in the 60's what do you think?

Offline Pete-zza

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Kevin,

I assume you are referring to the amount of yeast in the "Classic" NY Style Dough Formulation Without Oil from Reply 17 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64553.html#msg64553. With a change in the room temperature where the dough is made, you ideally want to keep the same finished dough temperature. For example, for a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, and with a room temperature of 60-65 degrees F and the same temperature for the flour, and a friction factor of 25 degrees F for your Hobart mixer, the water temperature you would want to use is 85-95 degrees F. Since different mixers can have different friction factors, that is something you may have to do some experimentation with to see if you get the desired finished dough temperature with your particular mixer. Once the really hot temperatures arrive, for example, 85 degrees F, the water temperature you would want to use to maintain the finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F is about 45 degrees F.

It is also possible, as I often do in a home setting, to adjust the amount of yeast with changes in the season. Often operators don't like to change the yeast and other ingredients because it is easier and perhaps safer to have their workers who make the dough just change the water temperature. There are also charts that can be used by such workers to tell them the correct water temperature to use to make the dough based on the room temperature and flour temperature. You can see an abbreviated version of such a chart at page 6 of the General Mills brochure at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf. If you find it necessary to reduce the amount of yeast, I think I would reduce the 1.2% just slightly while adjusting the water temperature based on the room temperature at the time you are making the dough.

It is possible to do the water temperature calculations using a simple calculator but you would first have to determine the friction factor for your particular mixer. If you need help on how to do this, let me know.

Peter

EDIT (2/4/2013): For an updated link to the General Mills brochure, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:40:35 PM by Pete-zza »