Flour Profiles

[Mo]

And one of the oven, because it's cool...

[Pete-zza]

Mo,

Thank you for posting your results.

When I looked at your Cold Ferment dough formulation yesterday, I could not recall any dough formulation that I posted with 2.73% salt (Kosher or otherwise) for a cold fermentation application. I did use a version of a dough formulation that Marco (pizzanapoletana) posted some time ago on the forum but I used 2.73% sea salt with a natural starter and fermented the dough in my wine cooler (around 55-65 degrees F). Maybe my memory is failing me, but can you tell me where you found the Cold Ferment dough formulation you posted? That question aside, I believe that had you not used all warm water to rehydrate the ADY, but rather a small amount of warm water (about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY) to rehydrate the ADY, you would not have experienced the significant expansion of the dough, even at the rather high value of ADY that you used (0.78%).  At that level, I would have skipped the one-hour bench time and would have gone straight to the cooler.

As for your Warm Ferment dough formulation, your results are what I would have expected because I have gone down the path you went with that dough formulation many times before and with different types of doughs, even when using considerably less yeast than you used. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg18383.html#msg18383, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6313.msg54156.html#msg54156, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332, and Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762.

It is possible that in your case with the Warm Ferment dough formulation that the residual sugar levels were too low and that there wasn't the proper balance between the pH of the dough and the residual sugar levels to produce an optimum oven spring. I suspect the same thing would have happened with the Cold Ferment dough formulation had you let that dough go for a couple more days in the cooler, mainly because of the high ADY level and the accelerated fermentation.

I realize that what you did was experimental, but how did the pizzas compare with your earlier effort that was the basis of the photo you posted earlier?

Peter

[Mo]

Yeah Peter, there's a couple things I'm doing differently for the next cold-ferm. I've modified the rehydration of the yeast and cut the bench time. The issue we were having with the 2-3 hour warm rise was just a longevity issue. We are still getting our numbers leveled out for usage and I'm looking for something that has a fairly wide window of usability. Nothing crazy, but I'd like the ability to use doughs a second day, if necessary. That's not always produced great results with the quick warm-fermentation.

As far as how these last two pies stack up against the previous example, I really like how the cold-ferm dough performed in all respects. It worked well at all stages, forming, proofing, stretching and cooking. I would have to re-trace my steps a bit to find out where I picked up the 2.73% salt figure. I have been reading a lot of threads and formulas in the last few days so it's not hard to believe if I transposed a couple recipes by mistake. In all, I don't think it was a big issue. After I see how the dough reacts after the changes I've made with yeast and bench time, I'll be able to look at whether or not the salt is an issue. Unfortunately, we sold all of the dough s last night, so I won't be able to see how they perform on the second day until next week.

Can't wait to get the shipment from sourdo.com.

Mo.

[Mo]

Here is the link to the cold-fermentation recipe I followed, it's from friz78 ("pizza #2"), omitting the olive oil as I use a lot of EVO in the rising and proofing boxes...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12050.html#msg12050

[Pete-zza]

Mo,

Thanks for the link. The dough formulation that Friz used was derived from an IDY version of Marco's dough formulation that I posted in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg11766.html#msg11766. I am not quite sure what Friz did to Marco's formulation but he said in Reply 37 that you referenced that he made a "few subtle modifications" to it. If he indeed used 0.05 ounces of IDY, that would have been almost 17 times the amount of yeast (IDY) in the IDY version of Marco's dough formulation in Reply 13, or 0.79% IDY. To me, that wouldn't be subtle but if that is what he did, the dough apparently made it to the time he baked the two pizzas reported on in Reply 37 (it looks like the dough was made on a Thursday night and used on the following Sunday night). Friz commented on wanting to get more oven spring, so it is possible if he used 0.79% IDY that he waited a bit too long to bake the pizzas. I don't recall using Friz's modification of Marco's formulation but most of the members ultimately migrated to some version of the pieguy dough formulation posted shortly after Friz's efforts at Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12512.html#msg12512. Not long thereafter, I converted that dough formulation to a single dough ball baker's percent format at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12549.html#msg12549. The amount of yeast was 0.29%, with an intended 48-hour cold fermentation. In the A16 Food + Wine book baker's percent version of the A16 dough formulation that I came up with in Reply 329 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg61872.html#msg61872, the yeast was even lower but retaining the 48 hours of cold fermentation. The pieguy and A16 book versions also use less salt, which is consistent with my view on using less salt for cold fermented 00 doughs. But that is something you can play around with as part of your tests.

Good luck. I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.

Peter

[Mo]

I had two more doughs in process using the friz78 formulation but I used cool water and went straight into the cooler with both. The one that was ready yesterday was a little over double after 24hrs. I've attached a picture of the dough as it sat on the bench. I didn't stay to see how the dough was cooking, but I'll follow up with my guy tomorrow to see how it was doing.

So, I also have scaled the A16-48 hour cold ferment dough for use on Wednesday.

As far as our oven is concerned, I think I'm starting to hate the woodstone. I can't get it as hot as I would like without flouting the manufacturers instructions. If I'm firing several (4-6) pies at the same time or many in succession, the crust seems to steam a little bit, making an otherwise crispy crust soften a bit...Live and learn I suppose. As nice as the Woodstone people are, I don't think I would put another one in anywhere...

[Mo]

So, posted below is a pic of the friz78 cold-ferment dough that went 48 hours bulk rise and then scaled with another 24 hours cold. It did not go crazy (see picture from my last post) and formed really easily today. into the oven and the results were really, really good. I've been eating a ton of Nea-style pizza lately and I would put this finished crust up against anybody's (I'm a little competitive). I checked the A16 dough toady after 24 hours and it is going SLOW. One more day to go, though. Pete-zza made a comment about the high percentage of yeast/salt in the friz78 dough and after scaling the two separate recipes, I gotta say, fermentation characteristics aside, the quantity of salt in the friz78 dough seems much more plausible from a taste standpoint than the A16 dough. There was so little salt in the A16 dough that it doesn't seem to be likely to come through in the crust. But, I haven't tasted it yet, so I cannot honestly say at this point...

I welcome any and all feedback concerning my attempts posted, so let's hear 'em...

 

[Pete-zza]

Mo,

Whatever works best for you is all that really matters. But I like the looks of the last pizza. It seems to me to be a winner--good looks and good taste. I assume you are serving the pizzas with the friz78 dough to patrons. If so, how are they reacting?

I will also be interested in your results with the A16 clone. After two days, you might revisit whether you should push the dough--or maybe a piece of it--out to three days.

Peter

[Mo]

Mo,

Whatever works best for you is all that really matters. But I like the looks of the last pizza. It seems to me to be a winner--good looks and good taste. I assume you are serving the pizzas with the friz78 dough to patrons. If so, how are they reacting?

I will also be interested in your results with the A16 clone. After two days, you might revisit whether you should push the dough--or maybe a piece of it--out to three days.

Peter

To be honest, most of our patrons were happy with what we've been doing up to this point, and haven't noticed or commented on a difference. I think the distinctions I have been making here have gone largely unnoticed. Having said that, all of our guests have been very positive about our efforts and have enjoyed the addition of a wood-fired pizza oven to their club. To us bunch of enthusiasts, the results might look quite different, but not necessarily so for the untrained eye. We have had good success using upscale ingredients and thoughtful methods to try and recreate an authentic-seeming experience.

[Mo]

I cooked some of the A16 batch today and with mixed results. While it browned up quite nice with even color, there was not much spotting at all. I think it could easily have gone another day. I think I'll try it again in the next couple days. What would be ideal is to combine the best aspects of the two formulations: good, even browning with some nice fermenty spots...that would be a monster.

The search continues...

[Mo]

Here's the photo to go with the above post...

[Mo]

I gotta say, after one more day in the cooler the A16 dough did very nicely. Still not as much fermenty spots but did get some and coupled with the nice browning is making a great looking/tasting pie.

I got my cultures from sourdo today and started the activation process. Will post experiments in a new topic...

Thanks to Peter and the others for your feedback. Wish you could taste the pies!

Mo.

[Pete-zza]

Mo,

I'm glad to hear that things turned out well with the longer-fermented 00 dough. I'm sure what you have learned will come in handy in your future efforts.

I remember that one of our members, scott r, who has visited just about every well known pizza place in the country, including A16, and who played around with one of the core A16 clone dough formulations on the forum, felt that that A16 clone formulation was quite good compared with the actual A16 product, as he noted at Reply 236 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg22209/topicseen.html#msg22209. Scott's "good housekeeping seal of approval" gave us confidence that we were on the right track.

I look forward to reading about your efforts using natural starters.

Peter