Author Topic: Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style  (Read 4037 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« on: March 05, 2009, 05:34:38 AM »
Hi Pete

Once again a continuation from my previous post here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7997.0.html

As I mentioned, this pizza was enjoyed the most. I think its just a preference that everyone loves Thin Cracker Style Pizza's rather than my personal preference Thick Style Pizza's.

I found that this one didn't come out as best as I would have wanted it to. It wasn't crispy. The underneath did not char like how the picture is in your post.

Let me run you through the Dough Making Process.

1) I started with combining IDY, Flour and VWG. The amount of VWG pushed the flour into High Gluten Flour Category.
2) I then dissolved Salt and Sugar in water. (The water was straight out the tap so it wasn't too cold and neither too warm)
3) I added the water mixture to my Stand Mixer Bowl.
4) With the flat beater attachment on speed 1 I slowly added flour a table spoon at a time.
5) I kneaded with the Beater Attachment for approx 2 minutes, basically till all the dough gathered from the sides of the bowl and formed into a single dough ball.
**I did notice that at this stage the dough did not form into one dough ball but fragments of the dough lay around in the bowl.
6) Upon removing the Beater Attachment, I added in the oil to the dough ball and attached dough hooks which I then kneaded the dough ball for 4-5 minutes on speed 2.
**I managed to combine the little fragments of dough with the largest dough ball after adding in the oil.
7) The dough ball I ended up with was very nice, smooth and not too sticky but more towards the tacky side.
8) I placed it in a air tight container which I then left in a room in my house where there wasn't too much sunlight and not too drafty but warm enough to ferment the dough at a moderate speed.
9) The dough was left to ferment at room temp for about 19 hours.
10) When I opened up the container after 19 hours, the dough was just as you described yours, very soft, pillowy, bubbly and delicate.
11) I sprinkled a little bit of bread flour on my counter top and placed the dough on the flour. I then threw a little bit of flour on the top side of the dough. I started with hand stretching it but the center began to thin out quicker than the outer edges so I used a rolling pin and rolled it out the rest of the way. Surprisingly it didn't stick to the rolling pin as I would have expected it to.
12) I then brushed the top of the pie with oil and turned it over onto a foil (I used light foil) and brushed the other exposed side with oil
13) I then pre-baked it for about 5 minutes on 220 Degrees C. Upon removing it from the oven I noticed the underneath was just started to get very lightly colored brown spots. I then waited for the pie to cool and then covered it to prevent it from drying out
14) Unfortunately I was not going to bake it in my oven. I was going over to a friend who has convectional oven compared to my conventional oven.
14) From the time the pre-bake took place (Which was in my conventional oven) till the time I baked it at my friends place was approx 2.5 hours.
15) It was baked on 220 Degrees C for approx. for about 7-8 minutes.

**Would there be any significant difference if I add the oil to the water rather than adding it to the dough before the final kneading process with the dough hooks.

I know for sure that somewhere along the line I went wrong which caused the pizza not to come out as crispy and cracker style as I wanted it.

With regards to my next attempt which should be in a few days time, it wont be possible for me to achieve a 24 hour fermentation, and this is puerly due to timing. Since I do most of my pizza making attempts on weekdays, it makes it even more difficult. Would I experience any real problems if I leave it for about 2-3 hours less than 24 hours.

Please advise on how to correct this the next time round

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
PizzaManic
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:38:35 AM by Pete-zza »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2009, 08:31:48 AM »
Pizza Manic,

If you wanted a really crispy and cracker-like DKM-style pizza, you did not pick the best dough formulation to try. The one you tried was my version of a high-hydration (60%) dough that Jon (Jackitup) created to retain some of the characteristics of a cracker-style pizza but with some other characteristics. If you re-read the last paragraph of Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909, you will note that I described the pizza as not being particularly cracker-like in the sense of the other pizzas I reported on in the same thread. Rather, it was more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust, with a fairly large rim, and with each mouthful seemingly having a different set of crust characteristics. To me, the pizza was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style. I also noted that I was using an electric oven without a convection feature as used by Jon, so it was possible that I would have to modify some of the steps I used to bake my skin and pizza to get a more cracker-like effect or a greater degree of crispiness. One example that came to mind was to stretch the dough out even thinner and possibly use a lower oven temperature and longer pre-bake time to pre-bake the skin, especially given the relatively high hydration (60%) of the dough.

In the context of the dough formulation you used, it appears that you did things properly. However, there were a few differences. First, in my case, I used a bread flour with a protein content of around 12.3%, whereas your flour blend as supplemented with the VWG had a protein content like that of a high-gluten flour. However, there are members who have used high-gluten flour with DKM's recipe, so it is a viable option. Second, it is not clear whether you used a pizza stone to bake the pizza, specifically, one that had been preheated for about an hour and a half at around 500-550 degrees F (260-288 degrees C). If you did not use a pizza stone or one preheated to about 260-288 degrees C, either of those factors could have been responsible for the results you got. From what you reported in your post, you used a temperature of 220 degrees C (428 degrees F) for both the pre-baking of the crust and for the final bake.

If you decide to take another stab at the dough formulation you used, I do not see any problem in adding the oil to the water. You should also be able to use a fermentation period of about 22 hours instead of 24 hours. However, in all other respects, I cannot stress strongly enough the need to follow the instructions as given and to use the correct equipment and procedures. Otherwise, it becomes difficult and time consuming to try to diagnose problems that you encounter and to find solutions to them, especially if I, or others, have not encountered the types of problems you encounter, whether they involve the type of flour, oven, or other variables.

As I noted above, if you want a really crispy and cracker-like DKM-style pizza, you perhaps ought to look for another dough formulation. The thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html contains some dough formulations that use a stand mixer to make a good DKM-type cracker style pizza. You should scan that thread to see if there is a dough formulation that you can use with your particular pizza making gear.

Peter


Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2009, 10:42:46 AM »
Hi Pete
Thanks for the response.

I did read the last paragraph of reply 119 so I was expecting the pizza to not be cracker style but a combination of chewy, crispy and crunchy. That's the reason I chose this particular recipe contra to the others listed a the following post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html . I found that based upon what i read, the others are really cracker pizza's that resembles something like a bag of potato chips which is rather crispy. The high hydration dough you did looked perfect and exactly what I was looking for else I would need to pay another visit to my dentist.

On my next attempt I will use my standard bread flour and just add enough VWG to bring the protein up to 12.3%. I did use a Pizza Stone which I pre-heated on 220 Degrees F for about an hour before pre-baking it.

Well I am due to attempt this again soon so I will keep you informed on my results.

Regards
PizzaManic


Offline BTB

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2009, 11:43:27 AM »
I did use a Pizza Stone which I pre-heated on 220 Degrees F for about an hour before pre-baking it.

I trust that was a minor oversight and that you meant to say that you pre-heated the pizza stone at 450 to 550 degrees F for about an hour before baking the pizza, right?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2009, 11:54:44 AM »
The oven/stone temperature of 220 degrees C is 428 degrees F, which is lower than called for by the dough formulation that Pizza Manic used.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2009, 09:02:37 AM »
Hi

BTB, Thanks for catching my error.
I meant to say 220 Degrees C.

Next time round I will preheat to 230 Degrees Celsius (446 F), the maximum tempearature my oven can support.

Regards
PizzaManic

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2009, 09:37:07 AM »
Hi Pete

I'm planning to attempt this again this weekend hopefully.

I plan to use the following dough formulation for a 10 inch pizza with the Thickness Factor of 0.095481. My current bread flour has a protein value of 11.7 as you know. I plan to push it up to a protein value to 12.3 to replicate the same flour you used in your recipe.

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (1%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Sugar (1.2%):
Total (167.45%):
   128.87 g  |  4.55 oz | 0.28 lbs
77.32 g  |  2.73 oz | 0.17 lbs
1.29 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
2.26 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
215.79 g | 7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = 0.0969132


** The flour/VWG blend would be 127.6485 g Flour + 1.2215 g VWG (0.48 tsp)

I plan to use the same method decribed at the following post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909 except for 1 difference. Instead of adding the oil to the dough before the final knead, I will be adding the oil to the water.

I know that there is no hard and fast rule regarding the next question but approx how much bread flour should I use when rolling the dough out. I don't want to make the mistake of using excessive bread flour which may create potential problem

Will keep you guys posted on the results

Regards
PizzaManic
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 10:45:57 AM by PizzaManic »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 09:41:59 AM »
I know that there is no hard and fast rule regarding the next question but approx how much bread flour should I use when rolling the dough out. I don't want to make the mistake of using excessive bread flour which may create potential problem


PizzaManic,

My basic practice is to use as little bench flour as possible--only enough to be able to work with the dough without its sticking to the work surface and, if used, to the rolling pin.

Peter

Offline BTB

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2009, 10:51:19 AM »
I think a "dusting" of flour is all that is needed for bench use, maybe a teaspoon or two.  Wow, water at 60% the weight of the flour for a cracker crust?  Peter, I know you did it at least once before, but that would seem to be unusally high as a general rule.  DKM's is 36%, Tom Lehmann's 45%, and I did one last night at 38%.  I'm interested in hearing of your results, PM.   --BTB

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 11:16:10 AM »
BTB,

As you will see above in Reply 1, I was using a dough formulation that Jackitup (Jon) devised to produce a finished crust that has several textural characteristics, including parts with a cracker-like texture. It was not held out to be a "pure" cracker-style dough formulation and, it was for that reason that I thought that perhaps Pizza Manic had erred in selecting Jon's dough formulation. If I recall correctly, the only thing that Jon changed from his earlier DKM-style dough formulations was the hydration, from 36% to 60%. All the rest of the baker's percents were the same. Having studied cracker-style dough recipes from many different sources, I knew that 60% was off the charts for a cracker style. Yet, the results were very good.

Peter


Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 03:52:21 AM »
Hi Pete
Together with my last attempt of the LC type pizza, I attempted this one as well.

Well this did not go as well as I planned for it to go.

The method I used was essentially that same method I used to make my last LC attempt.
The dough was in a room in my house (+- 30 Degrees Celsius) for approx 27 Hours.
The dough was extremely delicate, pillowy, bubbly with small holes in the dough. The underneath of the dough was quite sticky but could be easily handled.
I managed to remove the dough from the container it was in without damaging the dough too much.

The problem came about when I used too little bench flour and the dough stuck to my counter top.
It got really bad that I ended up kneading the dough back up into a ball and left it for about an hour. I then managed to roll it using a little more bench flour but I think I ended up using too much this time. I finally rolled it, very very tin and pre-baked it for +-4 Minutes. I then topped it and baked it for +-5 minutes. I found that the final pizza was extremely thin and very very crackery. I was looking for something more on the side of crispy, crunchy, a little bit of tenderness and chewiness. I think I rolled it too thin.

I do apologies once again for the next question, and I have asked it before and once again harping on the same point, but when rolling the dough, should I just sprinkle a little more bench flour as the dough begins to stick to the counter top and I guess once I can freely move the dough around my counter top without it getting stuck would be my Que that the dough has the right amount of bench flour?

For my next attempt, How tin does the pizza need to be and what's the best method to use to measure the thickness of the pizza so I don't roll it too thing or too thick.

I feel that the best thing for me to do is take pictures (Hopefully I get my hands on a camera) of the process from making the dough right till the final bake.

Regards
PizzaManic
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:54:27 AM by PizzaManic »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 07:16:43 AM »
I do apologies once again for the next question, and I have asked it before and once again harping on the same point, but when rolling the dough, should I just sprinkle a little more bench flour as the dough begins to stick to the counter top and I guess once I can freely move the dough around my counter top without it getting stuck would be my Que that the dough has the right amount of bench flour?

For my next attempt, How tin does the pizza need to be and what's the best method to use to measure the thickness of the pizza so I don't roll it too thing or too thick.


Pizza Manic,

No need to apologize for asking questions. You are moving in the right direction and learning a lot, which should help you get to where you ultimately want to be.

Your description above on the use of bench flour is correct. This is one of those other areas where you have to rely on "feel". It will come in due course. In your case, next time I would weigh the finished dough and if it weighs more than 7.50 ounces (3.14159 x 5 x 5 x 0.095481 = 7.50 ounces), trim it back to 7.50 ounces. Then open up the dough to 10". That should pretty much take care of the skin thickness issue. You might also consider reducing the hydration a couple of percent or so, to compensate for possible flour variations where you are in South Africa. That is another area where you may have to do some experimentation to get the desired results.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2009, 11:05:49 AM »
Hi Pete

I was just curious as to whether I need to weigh the dough before or after the rising process. I assume that the dough weight would increase after the rising time of +-24 Hours

I can't wait to attempt this again
Will keep u guys posted

Regards
PizzaManic

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Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2009, 12:31:36 PM »
I was just curious as to whether I need to weigh the dough before or after the rising process. I assume that the dough weight would increase after the rising time of +-24 Hours


Pizza Manic,

I only weigh the dough after it is done, just to know for my records whether I am over or under. That way, the next time I can adjust the bowl residue compensation value for that type of dough to get a closer dough weight the next time. I believe that the dough actually loses a little weight during fermentation.

Peter

Offline pcuezze

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Re: Re: Pizza Manic's DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2009, 07:28:16 PM »
Pizzamanic - I think you will be very happy if you make the low hydration (36%-40%) dough and laminate two skins together (no par-baking is necessary in my experience).  You end up with crispy crust but with a flaked-chewy texture (I don't want to say flaky b/c it is not tender like a croissant...)

I also use ADY or compressed yeast as I seem to be far more likely to achieve the right activation, but that's just me being an amateur!  I personally like the low-hydration without the lamination but I think the lamination may yield what you want.  Finally, make a double batch and try different techniques (par-bake v. no par bake, pan v. no pan, etc.)  My KA handled a double batch pretty well.  We'd love to see pics.