Author Topic: Yeast??  (Read 2639 times)

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Offline jemal

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Yeast??
« on: March 11, 2009, 03:18:16 PM »
Working as a pizza maker in Toronto I've used both live and dry yeast. I prefer live, but I don't really know anything about either. Are there really any differences?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 03:50:11 PM »
Working as a pizza maker in Toronto I've used both live and dry yeast. I prefer live, but I don't really know anything about either. Are there really any differences?

See the Tom Lehmann article reproduced in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64349.html#msg64349.

Peter

Offline jemal

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 04:25:40 PM »
Thank you.

Do you know if different yeasts affect the structure of dough or do they just provide levening. Working in busy pizzaria's I've made good dough with dry and live yeast. Italian style, hand stretched. In gas, wood and electric ovens.

I'm working with a chef now in a restaurant about to open and he wants to make Rosciloi style pizza for lunch, please see link bellow. The chef isn't a pizza maker and thinks dry yeast will make a difference. I learned on the job so I don't really know. I've never had this pizza, it's bakery style, sold cold. It stays very crispy. I think the get this result with oil content and mixing and oven. He also want to mix batches of dough let them rise overnight and then make balls of dough, which I don't feel will work. It kinda bugs me too, I'm good at my job and love pizzaand have made it for years. He has opinions from books and online research.

Sorry this is begining to ramble. If you're ever in Toronto drop by Buca and I'll make you a pizza.

J



seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html

Offline jemal

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 04:27:17 PM »
Sorry meant to say making balls of dough post rise won't work. Also sorry for the kinda whiny post

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »
J,

For convenience, here is the active link: http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html.

The main functions of commercial yeast in dough is to provide leavening, dough maturation and development, and to participate in the fermentation process by which the byproducts of fermentation contribute to the characteristics (taste, flavor, aroma, etc.) of the finished crust. However, depending on the amount used, yeast can also provide its own flavor to the finished crust. I have not used fresh (compressed) yeast in some time (it is not sold in the supermarkets near me anymore), but where I have noticed textural differences in pizza crusts is when using natural starters and preferments. I can't say that I have noticed different textural differences from using the different forms of commercial yeast.

For more on this subject, you might take a look at the discussion at http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm. The discussion is technical in nature but I think it is one of the better sources of the way that yeast performs in a dough. In the descriptions of the three forms of yeast, you will see references to the differences in activity and gassing power of the three forms of yeast in lean doughs, which covers pizza dough. Maybe it is those differences (specificaly, reduced gassing power) that the chef has in mind for considering a dry form of yeast for a Roman style pizza dough.

Without having a better idea as to the dough formulation, and particularly the hydration, it is hard to say whether it is better to do the dough division up front or after fermentation. It might also depend on whether the skins are shaped and stretched by hand or just run through a sheeter/roller.

Peter

Offline jemal

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 06:23:28 PM »
Peter, thank you very much

J

Offline David

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 07:02:01 PM »
Sorry meant to say making balls of dough post rise won't work. Also sorry for the kinda whiny post

Jemal,it can work.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline David

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 07:11:20 PM »
Without having a better idea as to the dough formulation, and particularly the hydration, it is hard to say whether it is better to do the dough division up front or after fermentation. It might also depend on whether the skins are shaped and stretched by hand or just run through a sheeter/roller.

Peter
I've never used a pizza dough sheeter Peter but have made doughs of similar hydration and formed balls before and after a bulk (cold) rise successfully,hand stretched and cooked at high temps,so i know it can work.What in your opinion would determine when it is better to choose one over another and why?I have not done this for many years though and am curious,
David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 08:46:06 PM »
David,

I have tended to look at the application and available equipment to dictate whether division of the dough should take place before or after the bulk rise.

For example, for a room temperature application such as Marco (pizzanapoletana) advocates, and where two fermentation stages are deemed mandatory, I would do a bulk rise and then the division into individual dough balls. This gives credence to the two-stage process that Marco says is necessary, but it also acknowledges that it is easier to divide a warm dough in bulk into individual dough balls and to reshape them into a nice round shape in preparation for the ensuing several-hour maturation/ripening stage.

For a dough that is to be cold fermented, I would advocate doing the division up front. Otherwise, it can become difficult to try to do the division of the bulk dough while it is cold and to be able to reshape the individual cold pieces into nice round shapes, especially if the tempering period is too short to allow the gluten to relax sufficiently to overcome the increased elasticity from rehandling. The objective here is to minimize handling of the dough while it is cold and somewhat intractable. I have seen instances where cold fermented dough balls are reworked by hand to achieve a better gluten structure but doing so requires planned intervention and may limit how soon the dough balls can be used. Most commercial operators prefer to make the dough balls up front, put them into the cooler, and use them within a few days after a brief tempering time.

In situations where a roller/sheeter is available, then it doesn't matter as much whether the division is done up front or later. It also doesn't matter as much whether the dough has been cold fermented or not. Moreover, the shape of the dough is less important; a piece of dough cut away from a bulk dough can be run through a roller just as easily as a dough ball that was formed in advance. I have seen applications where bulk dough is sheeted into skins and then put into the cooler for later use (Monical's and the early Pizza Hut fresh pan doughs), or where pieces of dough fermented in bulk in the cooler are run through a sheeter and formed into skins (e.g., Round Table and early Donatos), or where individual cold fermented dough balls are run through a roller and formed into skins (e.g., Giordano's). There are also places that ferment a dough in bulk at room temperature and then run pieces through sheeters as needed to fill orders. In general, pizza style is not a limitation. Just about any style of dough can be run through a roller/sheeter, although the most common tend to be the cracker-style, thin style, deep-dish style, and pan style doughs. NY, American and Neapolitan-style doughs are shaped and stretched by hand for the most part.

Peter




Offline David

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2009, 10:02:10 PM »
Thanks Peter.I think I understand the process with Neapolitan room temp. doughs as that is pretty much all i've done at home in recent memory and the minimal rise it creates.With his negative comment and experience using different ovens ,Jemal just got me thinking about other applications and styles of doughs at room temp,that i'm unfamiliar with?
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2009, 11:22:22 PM »
jemal,  I'm wondering when the bossman finds this thread. :-D  On a serious note though I think you could come close to that with a single stage "no knead pizza" dough formulation if executed correctly with a medium to high gluten content and a possible minor reduction in hydration.  If I had to guess that dough is is in the 70+% range.  Other than that i think Peters explanation of the situation is as on point as you are gonna get.  Good luck.  -marc

Offline jemal

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 05:07:54 PM »
Thanks all

I'll let you know how it goes in a couple of weeks when we start working, and if any of you come by please say hello if you can. We won't be using a sheeter as far as I know.

The whiny post was just my pride. I'm pretty good at my job, and was lucky enough to be able to learn things by feel. The chef here is very well trained, worked for one of Toronto's most succesful chef's before taking on Buca, but hasn't made pizza in ten years. I'm over that moment and looking forward to using local grown and milled flour (organic if possible), learning/developing a new dough and making beautiful pizza.

J

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Yeast??
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 10:46:52 AM »
For a re-cap on the different forms of yeast and their use, see Tom Lehmann's recent posts at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=7527&sid=ccfc3b3a07676ca786e234c66dbbc072. In a home setting, I have found that I can store my dry forms of yeast almost indefinitely if kept in the freezer.

Peter