Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 81984 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2012, 12:18:11 PM »
What are your thoughts on the oil?

Jamie,

Preliminarily, I would say that there is more oil in the Papa Gino's dough than in the test doughs that I made based on the Mellow Mushroom clone doughs, simply from the relative numbers from your oil test on a 5-ounce sample of the PG dough and the oil tests that I conducted for 5-ounce dough balls. It would have been nice if Norma could have done an oil test on the real MM dough in her possession but she has only a small amount of that dough left and she has been nursing it to keep as a benchmark for dough color comparison purposes with our MM clone doughs (since the MM dough contains molasses). Unlike the Papa Gino's you frequent, most MM stores will not sell dough balls. The Pepe's dough does not contain any oil (except for a trace amount in the flour) so there was no need to conduct an oil test for that dough.

I won't be able to estimate a baker's percent for the oil in the PG dough until I have the water percent for the PG dough after you have repeated the hydration bake test. Also, the oil quantity you mentioned may include small amounts of yeast and salt and maybe even some components of the flour itself. There may be some water in with the oil also, which is why I subjected the oil mixtures in my tests to bakes to help drive off any water in the oil mixtures. Even that process isn't perfect because oil in a heated state has a consistency and appearance like water.

If there is, in fact, a fair amount of oil in the PG dough, it will contribute to the "wetness" of the dough and its "effective" hydration. If true, that would help explain why you think the PG dough has a high hydration. It's even possible that the yellow tinge to the PG dough that you mentioned early on is due to the oil. Of course, it might also be due to the cornmeal that ends up on the PG dough balls.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:43:35 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2012, 10:39:35 AM »
I wondered recently how I could have completely missed the fact that Papa Gino's is using oil (soybean oil) in its dough. So, to find the answer, I went back and re-read a good part of this thread. I also hunted down my folder on the earlier Papa Gino's reverse engineering and cloning project, where I found a copy of the PG Nutrition Fact that existed as of the time I did all my work on the project.

First, as noted at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70557.html#msg70557, at that time Papa Gino's ingredients list for its pizza dough ("shell") did not include any oil. To see if the oil was inadvertently omitted from the PG ingredients list for the dough, I compared the PG Nutrition Facts that existed for a basic large cheese pizza (the simplest pizza to analyze) when I first got involved with the PG project with the PG Nutrition Facts that now exist for a basic large cheese pizza at the PG website at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=pizza. A comparison of the two sets of Nutrition Facts shows that the serving size (113 grams) remains the same (which means that they didn't change the pizza weight) but there are numerous changes in the current PG Nutrition Facts. Many of the changes, such as in Fat Calories, Total Fat and Saturated Fat, strongly suggest the addition of oil to the dough. However, other changes, such as for Cholesterol content and Sodium content, suggest possible changes in the cheese blend and, in the case of the Sodium, an increase in the amount of salt used in the dough. At this point, it is hard to say whether I will be able to determine the amount of soybean oil used in the PG dough solely from the PG Nutrition Facts because all of the cheeses used in the PG cheese blend and also the soybean oil have similar fat components (Total Fat and Saturated Fat). That makes separating out the Total Fat and Saturated Fat for the soybean oil more difficult.

The other significant thing that I took away from my re-reading of the earlier posts in this thread is that the PG Nutrition Facts are based on unbaked pizzas. This was previously covered in this thread but it was a good reminder for me. That should make it a bit easier to determine how much cheese blend and sauce might be used along with what we know about the weight of a typical PG dough ball--about 16.5 ounces for a 14" pizza. Previously, I was told by a PG worker that the sauce quantity used at the time for a large (14") pepperoni pizza was 6 ounces. Since PG workers use volume measurements, that suggests 6 ounces by volume, not by weight. I don't know what size portioning cups PG uses for measuring out the cheese, but I was told that two such measures were used for a large pepperoni pizza.

There is also no way of knowing for sure at this point whether PG has changed flours. However, the components of the current PG Nutrition Facts that relate to flour, such as Carbohydrates, Dietary Fiber and Protein, do not suggest a change in the profile of the flour that they are now using. That is, if PG is using a different flour, the flour has the same profile as the Spring King flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 03:20:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2012, 02:13:42 PM »
Peter,

I bought a dough ball from PG monday night around 10:00pm. I performed the bake test again this time like this:

- 10.0g dough fitted into pasta sauce lid

- 500 degrees for 2 minutes. Dough puffed up

- slit the dough

- Lowered oven temp before returning dough to the oven 220 degrees

- Left the oven on all night until 10:00am next day

- weight was again 5.9g

Im doing 2 tests right now. Another bake test only this time I sliced the skin after puffing up into 2 equal pieces ( They are like 2 silver dollars like pancakes) I unrolled the edges that curled up thinking maybe some moisture is caught in the edges.
The second test is I wanted to see how long it would take for the dough to get blown out see if we could figure out yeast quantity maybe.

also if this bake test doesn't offer any help is there another way? for some reason I thought you could measure how high the dough puffed up when baked and that could tell you something about hydration don't know where or why that thought came in my head.

I read your posts in the Papa Ginos thread and you mentioned no oil in the dough, I looked and saw oil in the pizza shell ingredients and thought it was odd that it was overlooked maybe the dough formula has changed in the recent years.

I read on wikipedia that soybean oil is considered to be a drying oil. is this hindering my bake test results?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:36:47 PM by Kostakis1985 »
Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2012, 02:23:58 PM »
I asked for the dough with no cornmeal on it and weighed it before any tests were done to it. Its exactly 16oz

They say there pizza is only 14 inches but they stretch it out bigger id say about 15-16 inches heres a pic I just took.

Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »
Jamie,

Based on your most recent numbers, I am beginning to think that your numbers from the hydration bake test may be correct after all, although they would suggest a dough that is lower in hydration than we have been thinking. However, the "effective" hydration that takes the oil into account would be higher than the stated formula hydration and would make the dough seem more highly hydrated. I just recently discovered that Papa Gino's dough contains soybean oil, so I haven't had a chance to study the two sets of PG Nutrition Facts in detail and to do some calculations to see if the calculations support the amount of soybean oil that you got from the oil test.

It is interesting to see the photo of the dough ball that you posted. You had mentioned earlier that previous PG dough balls had black spots, and the latest dough ball seems to have those black spots also. That is something with which I have had a fair amount of experience, and usually it was for a long fermented dough. You can see an aggravated example of this in Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. In that case, the dough was a bit over 12 days old. What often happens with long fermented doughs is that enzymes in the flour, as well as acids, attack the gluten structure and weaken it, causing the dough to spread and feel wetter than normal. I have read about dough balls with spotting after only a few days but in my experience it takes longer than that. Have you purchased any dough balls from Papa Gino's without the black spots? I suspect that Papa Gino's uses a small amount of yeast in their doughs and if that is true their dough balls perhaps can last up to eight days. If the dough balls you have been getting are older dough balls, they may have fermented to the point where the dough balls look and feel soft, leading you to conclude that the dough has a high nominal hydration.

I am unaware of any tests that can be conducted to determine the amount of yeast used in a dough. In PG's case, the amount of yeast in a single dough ball is likely to be very small. Otherwise, the dough might not make it out to 3-5 days or more, or until new deliveries arrive. It would also make sense that the hydration of the dough, both nominal and effective, be on the low side because high hydration doughs ferment faster than lower hydration doughs and you don't want the dough balls to ferment so fast that they don't make it out to several days. The higher amount of salt will slow down the fermentation process but it can't be so high as to make the finished crust so salty as to be unpalatable.

Pending the results of your remaining tests that are in progress, I will play around with the numbers to see what I can make of them.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2012, 03:53:08 PM »
Jamie,

If you would like to learn more about the black spots that can appear in a dough, you might want to take a look at this thread and the links contained therein: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032. In re-reading the materials myself this afternoon, I wondered whether Papa Gino's may be using active dry yeast (ADY) in dry, nonrehydated form. That is a method that can extend the fermentation of a dough for many days. I described such a method in respect of a Papa John's clone dough, at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »
Jamie,

I know it probably won’t help in this thread, but if you want to see what a MM dough ball looked like in terms of hydration when Chicago Bob sent it to me for testing, it can be seen in the different pictures at Reply 1016 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167954.html#msg167954

If you also are interested in when I did some hydration tests on the MM dough ball the pictures are at 1052 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168154.html#msg168154 You can see what Peter posted at Reply 1055 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168160.html#msg168160 about the hydration test.  I ran another hydration bake test at Reply 1060 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168194.html#msg168194 and you can also see the those numbers showed the hydration was about 50%. 

The reason I am posting is just to show you how wet or hydrated the MM dough ball looked when Chicago Bob sent it to me.  After the hydration test and Peter looking at the Nutritional Facts he figured out how much oil was in a MM dough ball.  Chicago Bob also did a hydration test on a MM dough ball.  I would have thought when Chicago Bob sent me the dough ball it would have been a more hydrated dough ball because it appeared so wet, but it took awhile for  the MM dough ball to get to me.  The dough balls Chicago Bob sent me didn’t have any specks in the dough but that could have been because the dough balls contained other ingredients, such as molasses.  I was at a MM location in DC and saw what their dough balls looked like and they didn’t look hydrated as much as when Chicago Bob sent me the dough balls.  I guess dough balls do become slack or wet looking after fermenting for a number of days.

Norma
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2012, 10:45:53 PM »
Norma,

 Wow I would have guessed that dough was a very hydrated dough. Thanks for the comparison. :)

 Also I wanted to ask about the molasses in the dough does it add a nice color to a finished crust? does it add a nice taste I just bought a jar  of it to try in a dough formula.

Peter,

  I just wanted to tell you a few things, for some reason I'm pretty sure its active dry. I think I read it somewhere and on Papa Ginos walls in the restaurant they are decorated with murals of the country side and recipes that fade into other pictures and it says active dry yeast in one of them don't know if it means something though.

My last hydration test was 5.9g again. I just read about the using dry ADY and that makes a sense. These dough balls don't seem to be rising just sort of hanging out waiting to be used.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 11:02:41 PM by Kostakis1985 »
Jamie

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2012, 01:13:12 AM »
Hey guys,  good work on the reverse engineering.  It got me to thinking,  Peter,  I think you could create a spreadsheet using nutritional information,  known variables,  flour characteristics thickness factors etc,  that could easily help people reproduce the pizza they are looking for.  Just a thought,  but creating it may be the ultimate challenge for you.  I for one think you could do it!  Just a thought.  -marc

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2012, 07:21:54 AM »
Norma,

Also I wanted to ask about the molasses in the dough does it add a nice color to a finished crust? does it add a nice taste I just bought a jar  of it to try in a dough formula.


Jamie,

I did play around a little with molasses in some doughs, other than the MM pizzas.  One such pizza that was made with some molasses is posted at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg167973.html#msg167973 I want to play around with molasses in pizza doughs more in the future when I find time.  I don’t want to get your thread off-topic, but since you asked about molasses in pizza dough, thought I would give you a link.  I think molasses does give moisture and a nice taste to the finished crusts of pizzas.  I believe in the MM thread the molasses did give the crust a nice color and flavor.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2012, 11:24:08 AM »
Peter,

I just wanted to tell you a few things, for some reason I'm pretty sure its active dry. I think I read it somewhere and on Papa Ginos walls in the restaurant they are decorated with murals of the country side and recipes that fade into other pictures and it says active dry yeast in one of them don't know if it means something though.

My last hydration test was 5.9g again. I just read about the using dry ADY and that makes a sense. These dough balls don't seem to be rising just sort of hanging out waiting to be used.

Jamie,

Thanks for the latest number from the most recent hydration bake test. I spent several hours yesterday poring over the Papa Gino's Nutrition Facts and doing a lot of number crunching scenarios in an attempt to make sense of all of the numbers we now have on this project. What complicates matters is the cheese blend that Papa Gino's is using. It is a blend of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, aged cheddar cheese and Romano cheese (in descending order of use, by weight), with oregano added. The few times that I have had Papa Gino's pizzas I could not detect the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese, although the oregano was clearly detectable. So, based on those experiences, and also looking at the fat, sodium and cholesterol numbers in the PG Nutrition Facts, it would seem that the PG cheese blend is mostly mozzarella cheese. To me, that scenario is plausible because I also did not detect the telltale sign of the use of a lot of cheddar cheese, which is the release of a lot of oil onto the pizza.

Further to the above, some time ago, I learned that one of the foodservice companies that Papa Gino's uses is Agar. As you can see from the announcement at http://www.agarsupply.com/pdf/Papa%20Ginos%20-Agar%20Final.pdf, Agar renewed its contract with Papa Gino's in a six-year deal. I was hoping to find an existing blend of cheeses such as Papa Gino's uses, in order to get a better idea as to the cheese ratios, but could not find anything to review. So, PG may be using a customized blend, possibly handled by Agar. I realize that you may not care about the PG cheese blend and really only care about the PG dough, but the PG Nutrition Facts are for complete pizzas, not just dough. So, all of the numbers are bunched together based on the their compliance with FDA rules and regulations.

If you ever have a chance, you might try to find out how much cheese blend is used by your local Papa Gino's for a basic cheese pizza. As previously noted, I was once told that it was two portioning cups worth but the worker did not know the size of the portioning cup. The sauce was 6 ounces (fluid ounces). If a dough ball for a 14" pizza (even if the skin is actually larger as you mentioned) weighs 16 ounces, and a 14" unbaked cheese pizza weighs around 32 ounces (based on the PG Nutrition Facts), and if the sauce comes to 6 fluid ounces (which might translate to a bit less than 6 ounces on a weight basis), then that would mean that the amount of the PG cheese blend would be around 10 ounces. In actuality, that number is likely to be a bit less once the cornmeal is taken into account.

As for the ADY, scott r once mentioned (in the Papa Gino's recipe thread) that at one time all of the PG stores made their dough in-store. That could account for what you mentioned about ADY appearing in a faded recipe on the wall of a PG store.

Finally, I want to report that I have some additional information to bring to your attention as a result of some further Papa Gino's research I conducted recently. I will reserve that for another post today. In the meantime, fasten your seatbelt, Jamie.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2012, 02:26:49 PM »
Jamie,

This is to follow up on my last post in which I mentioned that I uncovered more information from further research on Papa Gino’s.

One of the best tricks I have learned when researching a company whose pizzas I am trying to reverse engineer and clone is to look for documents that the company is required to provide to schools where the pizzas are to be served. I did this today and found two interesting documents on two Papa Gino’s pizzas sold to schools, one for an extra-large cheese pizza and a second document for an extra-large pepperoni pizza. In both cases, there are detailed ingredients lists for the pizzas. I have provided the related links below, along with the ingredients lists from the documents.

http://sharepoint.naschools.net/highschool/foodservice/Food%20Service%20Important%20Documents/Papa%20Gino%20Elementary%20Nutritionals%20per%20slice.pdf

Papa Gino’s School Lunch - XL Cheese Pizza with 8 oz cheese
November 2010

INGREDIENTS: Flour, indust, white, 13% prot, bleached, enrich, Pizza Sauce {tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid}, Cheese Blend{Mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enyzymes), Aged cheddar cheese(pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes), romano cheese (sheeps milk, rennet, salt),oregano, natural flavors, salt, sodium citrate, sodium propionate}, Water, YellowCornmeal, Salt, Soybean Oil, Bakers Yeast.
Allergen: Wheat, Dairy, Soy


http://sharepoint.naschools.net/highschool/foodservice/Food%20Service%20Important%20Documents/Papa%20Gino%20Secondary%20Nutritionals%20per%20slice.doc

Papa Gino’s School Lunch - XL Pepperoni Pizza with 16 oz cheese
December 2010

INGREDIENTS: Flour, indust, white, 13% prot, bleached, enrich, Pizza Sauce {tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid}, Cheese Blend {Mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enyzymes), Aged cheddar cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes), romano cheese (sheeps milk, rennet, salt), oregano, natural flavors, salt, sodium citrate, sodium propionate}, Water, Pepperoni Pork, beef, natural flavorings, contains 2% or less of water, dextrose, lactic acid starter culture, oleoresin of paprika, dehydrated garlic, sodium nitrate, bha, bht, citric acid, Yellow Cornmeal, Salt, Soybean Oil, Bakers Yeast.
Allergen: Wheat, Dairy, Soy


There are several things to take away from the above ingredients lists:

First, the protein content of the flour is given as 13%. Unless Papa Gino’s has changed flours, I believe that the 13% figure is within the +/- 0.3% variation of the Spring King flour. Also, with the level of detail given for the flour, I think we can safely rule out the use of semolina.

Second, the amount of the cheese blend in each case is more, by weight, than the amount of water. As will be noted from the headings above, in one case the pizza has 8 ounces of the cheese blend and the other has 16 ounces of the cheese blend. So, for an extra-large cheese pizza, there must be less than 8 ounces of water.

Third, there is less soybean oil by weight than the amount of salt. So, if we assume 2.25% salt, there must be less than 2.25% soybean oil. Also, since cornmeal (yellow cornmeal) is listed as one of the ingredients, its weight should be more than 2.25%.

Finally, the total weights of the two pizzas, based on the Nutrition Facts given in the two referenced documents, do not comport with the weights given for extra-large cheese and pepperoni pizzas at Papa Gino’s website at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=pizza. I believe that the differences are because of the different amounts of cheese blends used for the two pizzas. It is quite possible, for example, that the school versions of PG pizzas can be different than the store versions. As you may already know, a PG extra-large pizza is 17” (I called three Papa Gino’s stores, one in MA and two in NH, and they all said 17”). That size pizza is usually cut into 8 slices. As I understand it, Papa Gino’s sells three sizes of pizzas: 10” (small), 14” (large) and 17” (extra-large).

Because we now have a better idea as to the pecking order of ingredients and some additional numbers, the above information should be a good guide to coming up with a test dough formulation. However, there is still some missing information. For example, is the 17” pizza made by simply stretching out the dough skin for the 14” pizza to 17” or is there a separate size dough ball for the 17” pizza size, and is it proportional to the other dough ball weights (e.g., the dough weight per square inch is the same for all size pizzas)? Also, is the cheese blend distributed proportionately over all pizza sizes (e.g., the amount of cheese blend per square inch is the same for all size pizzas)? I would expect that coming up with a dough formulation for the 17” size will be a precursor to coming up with a dough formulation for the 14” size.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #152 on: May 03, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
Peter,  I think you could create a spreadsheet using nutritional information,  known variables,  flour characteristics, thickness factors etc,  that could easily help people reproduce the pizza they are looking for.  Just a thought,  but creating it may be the ultimate challenge for you.  I for one think you could do it!  Just a thought.  -marc

Marc,

Not long ago, another member privately shared some work that he had done somewhat along the lines you mention but using a specialized programming language instead of a spreadsheet format. His thinking was that maybe his tools could be supported on the forum. He asked me for my opinion, which I gave. One of the points that I mentioned is that people want simplicity and ease of use of any tools that relate to dough formulations. They are rarely versed in highly technical matters and they are likely to have little patience trying to figure out all of the intricacies of tools that are too elaborate. In that vein, I recalled the dough calculating tools that Mike (Boy Hits Car) designed. We started with the Lehmann dough calculating tool. That was a simple tool and when that seemed to work, we gradually expanded that effort to more complicated tools for deep-dish, natural preferments and a much wider selection of ingredients that were commonly used in pizza doughs. We beta tested the tools with several of our members who were most versed in the areas in which the tools would be used. To this day, I would say that the Lehmann dough calculating tool--the simplest and most basic of all of the dough calculating tools--has been the tool that has been most used by our members.

On the matter of nutritional information, for the past few years I have spent more time than I would like to admit studying and trying to understand Nutrition Facts. I actually have a love-hate relationship with Nutrition Facts. I love them when they support or confirm whatever else I have done and hate them when they do not. Nutrition Facts are an arcane and complex area that requires a level of training and understanding that few people are able to achieve. In fact, in practice just about all Nutrition Facts are arrived at using specialized software, databases and, in many cases, laboratory testing using specialized equipment that none of us would have in a home setting. There are so many ingredients and so many forms and so many sources and so many applicable FDA rules and regulations that I wouldn't know where to begin to incorporate nutritional information into any tool. And I honestly don't think that I could ever teach anyone how to reproduce someone else's pizza. Each case is different, and I approach them differently based on all of the information at hand and my own experiments and those of other members.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #153 on: May 03, 2012, 11:00:56 PM »
Jamie,

I know it probably won’t help in this thread, but if you want to see what a MM dough ball looked like in terms of hydration when Chicago Bob sent it to me for testing, it can be seen in the different pictures at Reply 1016 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167954.html#msg167954

If you also are interested in when I did some hydration tests on the MM dough ball the pictures are at 1052 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168154.html#msg168154 You can see what Peter posted at Reply 1055 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168160.html#msg168160 about the hydration test.  I ran another hydration bake test at Reply 1060 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168194.html#msg168194 and you can also see the those numbers showed the hydration was about 50%. 

The reason I am posting is just to show you how wet or hydrated the MM dough ball looked when Chicago Bob sent it to me.  After the hydration test and Peter looking at the Nutritional Facts he figured out how much oil was in a MM dough ball.  Chicago Bob also did a hydration test on a MM dough ball.  I would have thought when Chicago Bob sent me the dough ball it would have been a more hydrated dough ball because it appeared so wet, but it took awhile for  the MM dough ball to get to me.  The dough balls Chicago Bob sent me didn’t have any specks in the dough but that could have been because the dough balls contained other ingredients, such as molasses.  I was at a MM location in DC and saw what their dough balls looked like and they didn’t look hydrated as much as when Chicago Bob sent me the dough balls.  I guess dough balls do become slack or wet looking after fermenting for a number of days.

Norma
   Yes Norma you are correct that after a few days those MM dough balls looked very slack and wet....so much so that I requested Peter for a definition of what a "blown" dough ball looks likeand as we know ...they were still very much still usable.

Bob
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 12:01:05 AM »
Peter,

All I can say is WOW!!. I mean what a great idea looking at the school info.

I have a few questions/hunches

-The crust had a very slight sweetness to the it and when I did the hydration bake test I tasted the baked dough. I thought about what it tasted like it was on the tip of my tongue then I realized it tasted like corn flakes cereal. Do you think cornmeal is part of the dough formula? does that sound ridiculous? or is that what you were trying to convey?

-Im not sure what you are trying to tell me about the water being less than the cheese amount so could you clarify that.

Cant wait to try some dough formulas!

I will try to find out how info on the cheese blend maybe its mixed in house. ill find out how much cheese is used and if they use a different dough ball size for the x-large pizza.
It might be difficult because Im pretty sure the teenagers that work there have no clue about the products they use and we probably know more info on the pizza they sell than they do :)
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2012, 08:07:43 AM »
Jamie,

It is hard to say whether Papa Gino's is using cornmeal in the dough as opposed to its use on the bench. At one time, Domino's used to list cornmeal in its hand tossed dough ingredients list but it was placed last in the list with the statement "(used in preparation)". In a similar fashion, sometimes a pizza operator might put oil in the ingredients list when the oil was used in the pan rather than in the dough itself (an example of this can be seen for the Jet's dough formulation set forth at page 35 of another school document at http://www.northville.k12.mi.us/district/foodservice/pdfs/MSIngred.pdf). Since Papa Gino's does not list cornmeal in the pizza "shell" ingredients list at its website, I would say that the cornmeal is used only on the bench. I don't know if the Manchester Papa Gino's uses the mold to form the skins but when such a mold is used, both sides of the skin end up with cornmeal pressed into it. Since you previously mentioned that a purchased PG dough ball for the 14" size weighs 16 ounces without the cornmeal and 16.44 ounces with it, the difference of 0.44 ounces sounds about right and would be in the right spot in the ingredients list I posted in my earlier reply.

With respect to the significance of the amount of Cheese Blend in relation to the amount of water, if we simplify the ingredients list for the extra-large cheese pizza, it looks like this:

Flour
Pizza Sauce
Cheese Blend (this is 8 ounces by weight)
Water
Yellow Cornmeal
Salt
Soybean Oil
Bakers Yeast

If Papa Gino's listed the above ingredients correctly, then the ingredients are rank ordered by weight. And since the Cheese Blend is higher in the list than the Water, that means that there is more Cheese Blend by weight than Water. So, for the 17" pizza size, there should be less than 8 ounces of Water. That is why I would like to know the weight of the dough ball that PG uses to make the 17" size. Some pizza operators are more technical and scientific than others and use dough ball weights that will produce the same crust thickness (with the same thickness factor) no matter the pizza size but others use dough balls that produce somewhat different crust thicknesses across the entire pizza line. Jet's, for example, uses the former method but Mellow Mushroom uses the latter, whether by design or some other logic. If you are able to purchase a PG dough ball for the 17" size, preferably without the cornmeal, and weigh it, that would tell us which method PG uses. Sometimes pizza operators want round numbers for their dough ball weights, not oddball numbers with fractions. In PG's case, there will unavoidably be variations in dough ball weights because of their commissary dough divider/rounding equipment.

I didn't mention it before, but the ingredients list for the school cheese pizza shows that there is more Pizza Sauce by weight than Cheese Blend. If we assume that Papa Gino's spreads the Pizza Sauce the same way across the 17" size as the 14" size, then a calculated amount of Pizza Sauce for the 17" size based on using 6 fluid ounces of Pizza Sauce for a 14" pizza would be [(6/(7 x 7) x (8.5 x 8.5)] = 8.85 fluid ounces. PG workers use volume measurements rather than weights but 8.85 fluid ounces of Pizza Sauce will convert to a weight that is close to 8.85 ounces. That is more than the 8 ounces of Cheese Blend so it is in the right order in the ingredients list.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2012, 08:57:13 AM »
Jamie,

It looks like I missed your question about the soybean oil when you edited your post to note the drying qualities of soybean oil as discussed at wikipedia, as follows;

Soybean oil is a drying oil, which means that it will slowly harden upon exposure to air, forming a flexible, transparent, and waterproof solid.

I don't think hardening of the oil from your oil test would be a matter to worry about. Seeing where the soybean oil is in the ingredients lists I posted yesterday, it looks like your oil "mass" might have had some water mixed in with it. That is something that I also seemed to have experienced when I did an oil test using a lot of oil. As I mentioned previously, once soybean oil is heated, it takes on the consistency and appearance of water, making it difficult to know how much of the liquid is oil and how much is water. In retrospect, I think if I were to repeat the oil experiment, I would try refreezing the oil mass to see if the water can be separated out of it. I might add that I never had very high hopes for the oil test in terms of accuracy. My objective was only to see if I got a lot of oil or only a small amount--enough to get me into the ballpark. From there, I would look at other things, like Nutrition Facts and ingredients lists.

Speaking of Nutrition Facts, it appears that Papa Gino's may have changed their Cheese Blend because of the increase in the Cholesterol quantity in the most recent PG Nutrition Facts. It's not a big deal and, in fact, it might only represent the results of the latest tests on their pizzas for purposes of the latest version of the PG Nutrition Facts. I think it is also clear that there is a fair amount of salt in the PG pizzas. There is salt in all of the cheeses that comprise the Cheese Blend, and also in the Pizza Sauce and in the dough. If pepperoni is added, there would also be a fair amount of salt from that source. It will be interesting to see if you are able to identify the source of the Cheese Blend. I personally believe that it is bagged cheeses, not cheeses that are shredded in the PG stores. Once you go to a commissary model, you want to streamline everything as much as possible, even the preparation of veggies if possible. It is possible, however, for the few PG stores that are not in the PG delivery range to do some in-store processing since they are likely to have mixers, like Hobart planetary mixers, that have attachments for shredding cheeses.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
Peter,

I agree its probably bagged cheeses I was thinking that maybe they did something like 3bags mozzarella to 1 bag cheddar and 1lb romano. Now thinking about it its probably all blended for them as that would be the most efficient. I will find out about the dough ball weight later today and report back to the forum.

Last night I defrosted the oil test I had in my freezer and poured off the water, there was no cornmeal or semolina in the dough so you are right.

Another thing is on the documents for the schools is it says for a XL cheese pizza they use 8oz cheese, and for an XL pepperoni they use 16oz cheese. Do you think there is an error there because I know most operators including where I work if there are toppings on a pizza even if only 1 and especially more then 1 you cut back on the cheese. And if there is more than 2 toppings you cut back on the toppings as well.
What are your thoughts on that?
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »
Another thing is on the documents for the schools is it says for a XL cheese pizza they use 8oz cheese, and for an XL pepperoni they use 16oz cheese. Do you think there is an error there because I know most operators including where I work if there are toppings on a pizza even if only 1 and especially more then 1 you cut back on the cheese. And if there is more than 2 toppings you cut back on the toppings as well.
What are your thoughts on that?

Jamie,

I have never worked in the pizza (or other food) industry so I am not aware of how cheeses and toppings are handled quantitatively although I know that most places, and especially the chains, have charts and photos and the like at the work areas for the workers to use in assembling pizzas. However, in the case of schools, special rules might apply since school officials tend to be more sensitive about the nutritional aspects of the foods that they serve to children, especially fats and sugars and salt, all of which the government and food Nazis have been targeting for change. So, in the case of the school extra-large cheese pizza, it is possible that the school in question told Papa Gino's to use only 8 ounces of the Cheese Blend. It is even possible, I suppose, that Papa Gino's, knowing of such concerns, has several school versions of its extra-large pizzas that have different amounts of Cheese Blend from which the schools can select (and with Nutrition Facts also provided). But, this aside, if you assume that a 14" pizza uses 10 ounces of the Cheese Blend, and that the Cheese Blend is distributed on a 17" pizza in the same way as on a 14" pizza, the calculated weight of the Cheese Blend for the 17" pizza is [(10/(7 x 7) x (8.5 x 8.5)] = 14.75 ounces. That is pretty close to a pound of Cheese Blend. Papa Gino's perhaps actually weighs out the pound of cheese, whereas in its stores the Cheese Blend is free thrown (but first measured out in measuring cups by volume).

Peter
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:47:46 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2012, 10:35:42 AM »
In almost all cases of public school foodservice, the school district releases an annual or biannual bid which sets out in pretty fine detail the specifications of the products they want to buy. Food manufacturers bid their products that meet the given specs, and the best price wins. The contract for distribution of the food items is usually bid separately. Food manufacturer sales people spend a great deal of time working with the bureaucrats in the school districts in an attempt to influence how the individual specifications are written with a goal of getting a particular spec written so tight that they have the only product that meets the specs. For high volume items such as pizza, a manufacturer will often have a wide variety of items available to make this more difficult. There is also little coordination between districts - certainly not the larger districts, and as a result there is a large number of different products available.

The vast majority of school foodservice pizza is fully assembled. There is some amount of higher end product for special applications that is not, but it is the exception, not the rule.
Pizza is not bread.


 

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