Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 94682 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #325 on: October 10, 2012, 08:27:15 AM »
Norma


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #326 on: October 10, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #327 on: October 10, 2012, 08:29:47 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #328 on: October 10, 2012, 08:32:38 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #329 on: October 10, 2012, 08:34:16 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #330 on: October 10, 2012, 10:21:13 AM »
Norma,

Based on the data you provided, it looks like the PG clone dough as it came out of cold storage had increased in volume by about 243% (almost 2 1/2 times), after an elapsed time that, by my calculation, was about 76.8 hours. Those numbers would suggest that it may be desirable to reduce the amount of IDY next time to achieve a doubling after 76.8 hours, if that is the total elapsed time you would like to use next time, and provided that you use the same protocol (times and temperatures) next time as you used to make the latest PG clone dough. By the time you used the PG clone dough, after a temper period of 1 1/4 hours (I think you may have misstated that time as 1 3/4 hours), the dough had a total expansion of 338%, or more than a tripling in volume. This measurement point is not the critical one, although it can be worked into the calculation if you want more than a tripling in volume by the time you use the dough to make a pizza. As I have mentioned before, a tripling in volume is acceptable, and nowhere near overfermentation.

From your weight data, it looks like the unbaked weight of your latest PG clone pizza was 16 (dough) + 8.5 (85/13/2 cheese blend) + 8 (sauce) + 0.25 (cornmeal) = 32.75 ounces. That compares with 31.89 ounces for an unbaked PG 14" cheese pizza based on the PG Nutrition Facts. Using 6 ounces of sauce would reduce the unbaked weight of your PG clone pizza to 30.75 ounces, or about an ounce shy of the PG data.

When I have a chance, I want to retrace your steps and timelines and temperatures to see what might be involved in adjusting the amount of yeast I prescribed to fit your last protocol. If there is a particular window that you would rather use to make another PG clone pizza, please let me know. For example, you might want to make a PG clone dough starting sometime on a Friday, while at market, and to use it at a particular time on the following Tuesday. Of course, you would have to have cold storage at market for the full fermentation period. One advantage of that protocol is that you would take your home refrigerator out of the equation and be using only your deli case or your prep refrigerator for cold storage.

BTW, were you or your taste testers able to detect the change in the cheese blend to include more white cheddar cheese?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #331 on: October 10, 2012, 11:13:15 AM »
Norma,

Based on the data you provided, it looks like the PG clone dough as it came out of cold storage had increased in volume by about 243% (almost 2 1/2 times), after an elapsed time that, by my calculation, was about 76.8 hours. Those numbers would suggest that it may be desirable to reduce the amount of IDY next time to achieve a doubling after 76.8 hours, if that is the total elapsed time you would like to use next time, and provided that you use the same protocol (times and temperatures) next time as you used to make the latest PG clone dough. By the time you used the PG clone dough, after a temper period of 1 1/4 hours (I think you may have misstated that time as 1 3/4 hours), the dough had a total expansion of 338%, or more than a tripling in volume. This measurement point is not the critical one, although it can be worked into the calculation if you want more than a tripling in volume by the time you use the dough to make a pizza. As I have mentioned before, a tripling in volume is acceptable, and nowhere near overfermentation.

From your weight data, it looks like the unbaked weight of your latest PG clone pizza was 16 (dough) + 8.5 (85/13/2 cheese blend) + 8 (sauce) + 0.25 (cornmeal) = 32.75 ounces. That compares with 31.89 ounces for an unbaked PG 14" cheese pizza based on the PG Nutrition Facts. Using 6 ounces of sauce would reduce the unbaked weight of your PG clone pizza to 30.75 ounces, or about an ounce shy of the PG data.

When I have a chance, I want to retrace your steps and timelines and temperatures to see what might be involved in adjusting the amount of yeast I prescribed to fit your last protocol. If there is a particular window that you would rather use to make another PG clone pizza, please let me know. For example, you might want to make a PG clone dough starting sometime on a Friday, while at market, and to use it at a particular time on the following Tuesday. Of course, you would have to have cold storage at market for the full fermentation period. One advantage of that protocol is that you would take your home refrigerator out of the equation and be using only your deli case or your prep refrigerator for cold storage.

BTW, were you or your taste testers able to detect the change in the cheese blend to include more white cheddar cheese?

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting how much the PG clone dough increased in volume until I used it to bake the PG clone pizza.  I can understand that would suggest that it might be desirable to reduce the amount for another attempt. 

I did misstate the amount of time the PG clone dough ball proofed.  I have edited my last post.  I guess that was because I was only having my first cup of coffee when I was typing that post.  Thanks for finding my error.

It is interesting to see the numbers for an unbaked PG 14Ē cheese pizza with the Nutrition Facts.  I might have read that before, but didnít recall that number right now.  I will try to remember all of the ingredients to use for this coming week.  In fact, I will write them all down.  I guess my baked PG clone cheese pizza wasnít really far off if I would have used 6 ounces of sauce instead of the 8 ounces I used.

I would like to make a PG clone dough ball on Friday if you can retrace my steps, timelines and temperatures to see what amount of yeast you might prescribe for another attempt.  I couldnít mix the dough at market though (because my Hobart canĎt mix that small amount of dough), but could take it to market in the afternoon Friday if you can get the yeast amount figured out until then.  I also probably wonít be able to get my deli case repaired before then, so keep in mind that my deli case right now where the dough ball would be stored would be about 40 degrees F.  I can also take that temperature again on Friday if you want me to.  The doors of the deli case are opened a lot on a Tuesday and I saw yesterday how quickly the temperature went up when the doors were opened and shut so much.  I never really paid attention to that before. 

I really donít know what you mean about detecting change in the cheese blend.  I have never really tried a real Papa Ginoís pizza so I really donít know what the cheese tastes like on their pizzas.  I used the AMPI mild white cheddar in the blend.  The AMPI mild white cheddar does melt well and is good tasting, but I think I recall where you posted somewhere that PG uses aged white cheddar.  As you probably know, I have been trying to find out about aged white cheddars for awhile.  I am not even sure how long the AMPI mild white cheddar is aged for.  As for the taste of the cheese blend I used, my taste testers and I all thought it was very good when it was baked on the PG attempt.  I had used the Foremost Farms 1950 part-skim mozzarella as the mozzarella in this last attempt.

Do you have any idea of why my crust had more oven spring this week than last week?  I never really saw how employees of PG open their dough balls.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #332 on: October 10, 2012, 01:58:41 PM »
Norma,

What I meant about the cheese blend is whether you or your taste testers detected a difference between the latest cheese blend and the ones you used before. I increased the amount of white cheddar cheese for the latest blend to see if its flavor would stand out more than your prior blends, yet still comply with the PG Nutrition Facts.

I don't see any need for you to check the deli case temperature on Friday. Once I get all of the data points in order, I will decide what temperature to use for the next iteration.

As for a possible explanation for the increased oven spring, it is possible that the more than tripling of the volume of the dough yielded a softer, lighter and more gassy dough that translated into a greater oven spring. Also, your higher oven temperature than PG uses may have accentuated the oven spring. My only recollection of how the workers at PG work the dough is that they put the dough ball in a pizza mold and spread the skin in the mold to the edge of the mold where the rim forms.

For the next PG clone dough, is there a particular time that you would like to make the dough on Friday, and is there a particular time that you would like to take the dough out of cold storage to make the pizza with that dough on Tuesday?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #333 on: October 10, 2012, 04:56:07 PM »
Norma,

What I meant about the cheese blend is whether you or your taste testers detected a difference between the latest cheese blend and the ones you used before. I increased the amount of white cheddar cheese for the latest blend to see if its flavor would stand out more than your prior blends, yet still comply with the PG Nutrition Facts.

I don't see any need for you to check the deli case temperature on Friday. Once I get all of the data points in order, I will decide what temperature to use for the next iteration.

As for a possible explanation for the increased oven spring, it is possible that the more than tripling of the volume of the dough yielded a softer, lighter and more gassy dough that translated into a greater oven spring. Also, your higher oven temperature than PG uses may have accentuated the oven spring. My only recollection of how the workers at PG work the dough is that they put the dough ball in a pizza mold and spread the skin in the mold to the edge of the mold where the rim forms.

For the next PG clone dough, is there a particular time that you would like to make the dough on Friday, and is there a particular time that you would like to take the dough out of cold storage to make the pizza with that dough on Tuesday?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining what you meant about increasing the amount of white cheddar cheese in the blend.  I had used the Pecorino Romano granular cheese that I had posted about that I purchased at Bova awhile ago in my other attempts until yesterday.  I used grated Romano cheese yesterday.  I thought the taste of the blend was better yesterday, but wasnít sure if it was from the grated Romano, or the additional white cheddar.  How did you get the white cheddar, when increased in the blend, to comply with the PG Nutrition Facts?

I appreciate you explaining why I might have gotten more oven spring in yesterdays attempt.  

I probably would like to make the PG clone dough ball between 10:00-11:00 am Friday morning and bake the PG clone pizza about 3:00 pm on Tuesday if that is okay with you in your calculations.  Usually in the mid-afternoon on a Tuesday I am not as busy at market.

I was looking at Papa Ginoís pictures on facebook to see if I could find any pictures of someone opening up their dough balls and they had some old pictures of how their one pizzeria looked years ago.  I found it interesting that the corn meal looked scattered around just almost like Papa Johnís blend that they use.  These are some the pictures I copied from facebook, if anyone is interested.  The one picture also shows a pieman tossing the dough.  I tried to look for some videos on Youtube of an employee opening a dough ball, but didnít find any.  I will look more.  

If I get this PG clone right and really like it I might purchase a dough mold to try.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:58:57 PM by norma427 »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #334 on: October 10, 2012, 05:17:57 PM »
Man, those are some great pics Norma...thanks!Is it just me or does their decor sorta remind one of Shakey's Pizza Parlour?  Fun photo's for sure.... :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #335 on: October 10, 2012, 05:45:20 PM »
Man, those are some great pics Norma...thanks!Is it just me or does their decor sorta remind one of Shakey's Pizza Parlour?  Fun photo's for sure.... :chef:

Bob,

I have never been to Shakey's, or seen old pictures of their pizzerias.  I thought the pictures were neat though.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #336 on: October 10, 2012, 05:46:56 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for explaining what you meant about increasing the amount of white cheddar cheese in the blend.  I had used the Pecorino Romano granular cheese that I had posted about that I purchased at Bova awhile ago in my other attempts until yesterday.  I used grated Romano cheese yesterday.  I thought the taste of the blend was better yesterday, but wasnít sure if it was from the grated Romano, or the additional white cheddar.  How did you get the white cheddar, when increased in the blend, to comply with the PG Nutrition Facts?

I played around with different values for the three cheeses, but with an emphasis on the cheddar cheese, and then did calculations of the Total Fats and Cholesterol. The Total Fats include the total fats in the cheese blend, the added oil and in the flour itself. The Cholesterol, which is of animal origin, resides only in the cheese blend. With the three-cheese blend I suggested that you try, the numbers I calculated for Total Fats and Cholesterol satisfied the PG Nutrition Facts. There are likely many other three-cheese blends, and their amounts, that will satisfy the PG Nutrition Facts but the one I gave you emphasized the cheddar cheese.

I probably would like to make the PG clone dough ball between 10:00-11:00 am Friday morning and bake the PG clone pizza about 3:00 pm on Tuesday if that is okay with you in your calculations.  Usually in the mid-afternoon on a Tuesday I am not as busy at market.

Those hours look fine. What I will shoot for is an amount of IDY that will allow the next PG clone dough to about double in volume by 3:00PM on Tuesday, with the dough being made around 11:00AM on the prior Friday. Having reconstructed what you did with the last PG clone dough, I plan to use a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F for calculation purposes. Since there will be some temperature variations along the way, we can't predict exactly when the dough will double but I think we should come reasonably close. This time, I would prefer not to let the dough triple in volume. I'd like to see what effect the doubling has on oven spring.

If I get this PG clone right and really like it I might purchase a dough mold to try.

When I spoke with the worker who made one of my pizzas in an early visit to a PG store, I was told that some workers do not use the pizza molds. As you can see in the photos you posted, pizza molds were not used in the early days. But, back then, PG had very few stores. Now there are over 160 stores. The pizza molds serve as aids in achieving better consistency of the final product across all stores.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #337 on: October 10, 2012, 06:51:33 PM »
It's been a really long time since I have had Papa Ginos pizza but this picture of Norma's is what I remember it looking like.  Papa Gino's would have been the first non-Greek pizza I ever had.  The gear on my mixer stripped and I need to find the time to fix it but i'm going to jump in and try this formula after it's fixed.  


Deb

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #338 on: October 10, 2012, 07:01:43 PM »
Norma,

I played around with different values for the three cheeses, but with an emphasis on the cheddar cheese, and then did calculations of the Total Fats and Cholesterol. The Total Fats include the total fats in the cheese blend, the added oil and in the flour itself. The Cholesterol, which is of animal origin, resides only in the cheese blend. With the three-cheese blend I suggested that you try, the numbers I calculated for Total Fats and Cholesterol satisfied the PG Nutrition Facts. There are likely many other three-cheese blends, and their amounts, that will satisfy the PG Nutrition Facts but the one I gave you emphasized the cheddar cheese.

Those hours look fine. What I will shoot for is an amount of IDY that will allow the next PG clone dough to about double in volume by 3:00PM on Tuesday, with the dough being made around 11:00AM on the prior Friday. Having reconstructed what you did with the last PG clone dough, I plan to use a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F for calculation purposes. Since there will be some temperature variations along the way, we can't predict exactly when the dough will double but I think we should come reasonably close. This time, I would prefer not to let the dough triple in volume. I'd like to see what effect the doubling has on oven spring.

When I spoke with the worker who made one of my pizzas in an early visit to a PG store, I was told that some workers do not use the pizza molds. As you can see in the photos you posted, pizza molds were not used in the early days. But, back then, PG had very few stores. Now there are over 160 stores. The pizza molds serve as aids in achieving better consistency of the final product across all stores.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining how you played around with different values for the three cheeses, but with the emphasis on the cheddar cheese this time.  I never would be able to figure out calculations for the total fats in the cheese blend in addition to the added oil and in the flour itself.  Since I do like cheddar on a pizza I am glad you gave the emphasis on the cheddar.  I thought I might have tasted a little cheddar this time, but wasnít sure if it was the cheddar or the Romano cheese.  Maybe it was just the 3 cheeses blended together that made the pizza taste better.  I havenít tried Romano cheese in a blend before.  What is your take on how Romano cheese makes a pizza taste different?  I guess also it would matter what brand of Romano that is used in the blend.

What sauce do you suggest I use for my next attempt?  I do have a large can of 6-in-1s that I can open.

Good luck trying to do the calculations for the IDY so the next PG clone dough ball can be made and then baked in the timeline I wanted.  I appreciate you doing all those calculations.

For the kind of dough I use at market now, my baked pizzas arenít consistent in how the rim is shaped.  PG pizzas look like the rims are almost perfect in some of the pictures.  I saw in the early days that pizza molds werenít used for making the rim look better.  I think I might try to order a pizza mold tomorrow to see if I can get better consistency in forming a rim.  At least a pizza mold would be fun to play with.  ;D

Norma 

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #339 on: October 10, 2012, 07:06:09 PM »
It's been a really long time since I have had Papa Ginos pizza but this picture of Norma's is what I remember it looking like.  Papa Gino's would have been the first non-Greek pizza I ever had.  The gear on my mixer stripped and I need to find the time to fix it but i'm going to jump in and try this formula after it's fixed.  




Deb,

Thanks for posting the picture that you think looks like the PG pizza you ate.  It is interesting that Papa Gino's pizza would have been the first non-Greek pizza you ever had.  It would be fun if you jumped in on this thread and also experimented when your mixer is fixed.  ;D At least you know what a real Papa Gino's looks like and tastes like.   ;)

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #340 on: October 10, 2012, 08:48:17 PM »
Norma,

What is your take on how Romano cheese makes a pizza taste different?  I guess also it would matter what brand of Romano that is used in the blend.

When I played around with the various three-cheese blends, both raw and cooked, I found that I could clearly detect the Romano cheese when in the raw state, even in small amounts, but I could not detect it in the baked state. I tried both a Romano cheese that I personally grated and a supermarket pre-grated Romano cheese. I tasted both of those forms side by side, raw, but could not detect much of a difference. FYI, according to the PG ingredients list, the Romano cheese they use is sheep's milk Romano cheese. As I recall when I researched Romano cheese, it can be made from either cow's milk or sheep's milk. There can also be blends of the two. My recollection is that I used a brand of sheep's milk Romano cheese when I did my calculations.

What sauce do you suggest I use for my next attempt?  I do have a large can of 6-in-1s that I can open.

According to the PG Nutrition Facts, the pizza sauce they use comprises Tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid. Any pizza sauce that mirrors that sequence of ingredients should work. I was not able to identify any specific commercial product that contained the exact ingredients as noted above but, as I noted at Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg189722/topicseen.html#msg189722, I suggested to Jamie that he consider using an Escalon product such as the Classico or 6-IN-1 products. Using a Classico tomato product in the 28-ounce can will spare you from opening a large can of the 6-IN-1s.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #341 on: October 10, 2012, 09:46:33 PM »
Norma,

When I played around with the various three-cheese blends, both raw and cooked, I found that I could clearly detect the Romano cheese when in the raw state, even in small amounts, but I could not detect it in the baked state. I tried both a Romano cheese that I personally grated and a supermarket pre-grated Romano cheese. I tasted both of those forms side by side, raw, but could not detect much of a difference. FYI, according to the PG ingredients list, the Romano cheese they use is sheep's milk Romano cheese. As I recall when I researched Romano cheese, it can be made from either cow's milk or sheep's milk. There can also be blends of the two. My recollection is that I used a brand of sheep's milk Romano cheese when I did my calculations.

According to the PG Nutrition Facts, the pizza sauce they use comprises Tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid. Any pizza sauce that mirrors that sequence of ingredients should work. I was not able to identify any specific commercial product that contained the exact ingredients as noted above but, as I noted at Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg189722/topicseen.html#msg189722, I suggested to Jamie that he consider using an Escalon product such as the Classico or 6-IN-1 products. Using a Classico tomato product in the 28-ounce can will spare you from opening a large can of the 6-IN-1s.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting about your experiences with the Romano cheeses.  I used Bel Gioioso Romano grated cheese on my last attempt and am not sure if it is from sheepís milk or cowís milk.  http://www.belgioioso.com/Romano.htm  I probably could get a better Romano cheese from my supplier to try. 

Since I never tasted a PG pizza I sure wouldnít know how much salt, black pepper, oregano and garlic powder to add to the can of 6-in1s.  I might open the big can of 6-in1s and freeze the rest.  I am not sure when I am going to Walmart again and really donít recall right now what kind of Classcio products I have at market.  I think I saw a video on Youtube that showed the sauce is a little chunky, but am not sure of that.  I have to check on Friday what is at market. 

Norma


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #342 on: October 10, 2012, 09:48:45 PM »
Norma,

Will you be using the Kyrol/KAAP blend again?

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #343 on: October 10, 2012, 09:57:15 PM »
Norma,

Will you be using the Kyrol/KAAP blend again?

Peter

Peter,

I will, if that is what you want me to use.

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #344 on: October 11, 2012, 09:35:47 AM »
Norma,

I have set forth below the revised PG clone dough formulation. As you will note, it does not vary very much from the PG clone dough formulation that you last used and that I previously set forth at Reply 267 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg213221.html#msg213221. To greatly simplify the calculations, I assumed that you used a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F for the reference standard you established by your last PG clone dough (a doubling in volume after 60 hours). For my calculations, I used the same temperature to come up with the revised PG clone dough formulation set forth below. The main difference is that I used 100 hours as the desired fermentation period (measured from 11:00AM on Friday to 3:00PM on the following Tuesday) instead of the 60 hours (2 1/2 days) that it took your last PG clone dough to double in volume. When the dust settled, the amount of IDY I came up with for the PG clone dough formulation set forth below is 0.21% (60/100 x 0.35%). As you might expect, because of all of the possible variations in temperature over 100 hours, even minor ones, at some point it may be necessary or desirable to tweak the amount of IDY for your particular application. But, first, we have to see how well the 0.21% IDY works out.

For the latest iteration of the PG clone dough formulation, I assumed that you might use the Kyrol/KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose) flour blend again. The amounts of those two flours are set forth below. I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate those quantities, based on a protein content for the blend of 13.2%, which is the same as the protein content of the Spring King flour. In that calculator, I used 14% for the protein content of the Kyrol flour and 11.7% for the protein content of the KAAP.

I also noted how much of the formula oil should go into the dough itself and how much should go on the surface of the dough ball, using the methodology set forth in Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40104.html#msg40104 and using the cube root calculator at http://www.calculatorpro.com/calculator/cube-root-calculator/. As before, I also note the amount of the yellow cornmeal (defatted) that should be worked into the dough ball (at 2.5% of the formula flour).

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following PG clone dough formulation:

Norma's 100-Hr, 40 Degrees F PG Clone Dough Formulation
Spring King Flour or Kyrol/KAAP Blend* (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.21%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.9%):
Total (163.11%):
282.27 g  |  9.96 oz | 0.62 lbs
166.54 g  |  5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.65 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
5.36 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
*If the Kyrol/KAAP Blend is used, use 184.1 grams of the Kyrol high-gluten flour and 98.2 grams of the KAAP flour
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; the soybean oil should be allocated as follows: 3.9 grams of the soybean oil in the dough and 1.4 grams of the soybean oil to coat the final dough ball; about 7.1 grams (about 2 teaspoons) of yellow cornmeal (defatted) should be used on and in the final dough ball/skin; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There is another point that I believe should be mentioned. That point relates to sugar. Normally, for a dough that is to cold ferment for 2-3 days there is no need to add any sugar to the dough, either for purposes of feeding the yeast or for crust coloration purposes. And, as you know, Papa Gino's does not add any sugar to its dough. That can mean that PG does not cold ferment its dough beyond 3 days but it can also be a way of achieving a finished crust that is fairly light in color, because of reduced residual sugar at the time of baking. I'd like you to use the above PG clone dough formulation as given, to see what you get in the way of results. If you like the results but need more crust coloration, then that is something that can be addressed for a future iteration of the PG clone dough.

I have tried to make this post as complete as possible, at the risk of repeating myself, so that you and other users have everything in one place. However, it should be kept in mind that the above PG clone dough formulation is intended for an application where the fermentation period is about 100 hours (a bit over 4 days).

Peter


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #345 on: October 11, 2012, 10:43:38 AM »
Norma,

I have set forth below the revised PG clone dough formulation. As you will note, it does not vary very much from the PG clone dough formulation that you last used and that I previously set forth at Reply 267 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg213221.html#msg213221. To greatly simplify the calculations, I assumed that you used a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F for the reference standard you established by your last PG clone dough (a doubling in volume after 60 hours). For my calculations, I used the same temperature to come up with the revised PG clone dough formulation set forth below. The main difference is that I used 100 hours as the desired fermentation period (measured from 11:00AM on Friday to 3:00PM on the following Tuesday) instead of the 60 hours (2 1/2 days) that it took your last PG clone dough to double in volume. When the dust settled, the amount of IDY I came up with for the PG clone dough formulation set forth below is 0.21% (60/100 x 0.35%). As you might expect, because of all of the possible variations in temperature over 100 hours, even minor ones, at some point it may be necessary or desirable to tweak the amount of IDY for your particular application. But, first, we have to see how well the 0.21% IDY works out.

For the latest iteration of the PG clone dough formulation, I assumed that you might use the Kyrol/KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose) flour blend again. The amounts of those two flours are set forth below. I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate those quantities, based on a protein content for the blend of 13.2%, which is the same as the protein content of the Spring King flour. In that calculator, I used 14% for the protein content of the Kyrol flour and 11.7% for the protein content of the KAAP.

I also noted how much of the formula oil should go into the dough itself and how much should go on the surface of the dough ball, using the methodology set forth in Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40104.html#msg40104 and using the cube root calculator at http://www.calculatorpro.com/calculator/cube-root-calculator/. As before, I also note the amount of the yellow cornmeal (defatted) that should be worked into the dough ball (at 2.5% of the formula flour).

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following PG clone dough formulation:

Norma's 100-Hr, 40 Degrees F PG Clone Dough Formulation
Spring King Flour or Kyrol/KAAP Blend* (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.21%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.9%):
Total (163.11%):
282.27 g  |  9.96 oz | 0.62 lbs
166.54 g  |  5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.65 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
5.36 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
*If the Kyrol/KAAP Blend is used, use 184.1 grams of the Kyrol high-gluten flour and 98.2 grams of the KAAP flour
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; the soybean oil should be allocated as follows: 3.9 grams of the soybean oil in the dough and 1.4 grams of the soybean oil to coat the final dough ball; about 7.1 grams (about 2 teaspoons) of yellow cornmeal (defatted) should be used on and in the final dough ball/skin; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There is another point that I believe should be mentioned. That point relates to sugar. Normally, for a dough that is to cold ferment for 2-3 days there is no need to add any sugar to the dough, either for purposes of feeding the yeast or for crust coloration purposes. And, as you know, Papa Gino's does not add any sugar to its dough. That can mean that PG does not cold ferment its dough beyond 3 days but it can also be a way of achieving a finished crust that is fairly light in color, because of reduced residual sugar at the time of baking. I'd like you to use the above PG clone dough formulation as given, to see what you get in the way of results. If you like the results but need more crust coloration, then that is something that can be addressed for a future iteration of the PG clone dough.

I have tried to make this post as complete as possible, at the risk of repeating myself, so that you and other users have everything in one place. However, it should be kept in mind that the above PG clone dough formulation is intended for an application where the fermentation period is about 100 hours (a bit over 4 days).

Peter




Peter,

Thank you for setting forth the revised PG clone dough formulation for me, or anyone that wants to try it.  I do see if doesnít vary much from the last PG clone formulation you set-forth. 

It is very interesting how you came up with the amount of IDY to try for a 100 hour cold fermentation.  I would have thought the IDY would have been lower, but then I canít do the calculations like you can.  When I saw the formulation you had set-forth for Jamie at Reply 198 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg189757.html#msg189757 that IDY amount was 0.133% to have the dough double after about 72 hrs. at a higher fridge temperature.  I wouldnít have thought before this thread, that those differences in fridge temperatures would make that much difference in how much IDY to add for a certain time frame.   

What kind of final dough temperature do you think I should shoot for and do you think I should let the lid off of the plastic container to let the dough ball cool down as fast as possible? 

I was wondering what you were going to say about adding sugar for such a long cold fermentation.  I knew Papa Ginoís didnít use any sugar in their dough though.  Thanks for including your thoughts about sugar.

It might be interesting this time because wonít be able to watch how the PG clone dough ball ferments.  If the formulation you set-forth does work out, I can imagine there would be better crust flavors, but will wait and see what happens. 

Norma 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #346 on: October 11, 2012, 11:05:34 AM »
It is very interesting how you came up with the amount of IDY to try for a 100 hour cold fermentation.  I would have thought the IDY would have been lower, but then I canít do the calculations like you can.  When I saw the formulation you had set-forth for Jamie at Reply 198 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg189757.html#msg189757 that IDY amount was 0.133% to have the dough double after about 72 hrs. at a higher fridge temperature.  I wouldnít have thought before this thread, that those differences in fridge temperatures would make that much difference in how much IDY to add for a certain time frame.    

What kind of final dough temperature do you think I should shoot for and do you think I should let the lid off of the plastic container to let the dough ball cool down as fast as possible?  

Norma,

The dough formulation I posted in my last reply is tailored specifically to your situation with a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F and a fermentation period of 100 hours.  The version of the PG clone formulation that I proposed to Jamie (at Reply 198 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg189757.html#msg189757) was based on a standard that I came up with in a test dough, but where the fermentation temperature was higher (47 degrees F) and where the fermentation period was 72 hours, which we believe is what Papa Gino's uses in at least some of its stores. That formulation was also a bit different than yours (it has a higher hydration and more salt and oil). My refrigerator temperature can vary quite widely, usually based on how many items are in my refrigerator at any given time that have to be kept cool, and how frequently I open and close the refrigerator door. For example, yesterday the temperature of my refrigerator was around 41-42 degrees F. That was with fewer items than normal.

With respect to finished dough temperature, if you will be placing the dough fairly promptly into your deli case at market, you might shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. If you are in a position to leave the storage container uncovered for a while (e.g., about an hour) in the refrigerator, that should help cool the dough ball down faster. But if you don't have time to do that, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You might even treat the dough ball as you currently do with your Lehmann style dough balls, using a food-grade storage bag that should also allow the dough ball to cool down faster.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 12:06:28 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #347 on: October 11, 2012, 11:29:02 AM »
Norma,

The dough formulation I posted in my last reply is tailored specifically to your situation with a fermentation temperature of 40 degrees F and a fermentation period of 100 hours. The version of the PG clone formulation that I proposed to Jamie was based on a standard that I came up with in a test dough, but where the fermentation temperature was higher (47 degrees F) and where the fermentation period was 72 hours, which we believe is what Papa Gino's uses in at least some of its stores. My refrigerator temperature can vary quite widely, usually based on how many items are in my refrigerator at any given time that have to be kept cool, and how frequently I open and close the refrigerator door. For example, yesterday the temperature of my refrigerator was around 41-42 degrees F. That was with fewer items than normal.

With respect to finished dough temperature, if you will be placing the dough fairly promptly into your deli case at market, you might shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. If you are in a position to leave the storage container uncovered for a while (e.g., about an hour) in the refrigerator, that should help cool the dough ball down faster. But if you don't have time to do that, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You might even treat the dough ball as you currently do with your Lehmann style dough balls, using a food-grade storage bag that should also allow the dough ball to cool down faster.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about the formulation you came up for Jamie and also about your fridge. 

I will be mixing the PG dough ball at home, because taking my slightly heavy Kitchen Aid mixer to market is too many problems for me right now.  I still have a one bad foot and the less I lift anything heavy the better it is for my foot.  Right now I donít have any of the food grade storage bags at home.  Maybe I can try one of the food grade storage bags another week.  I would have thought 80 degrees F would have been a little too high for a final dough temperature, but will try to get my PG clone dough to that temperature.  I have my little leftover Styrofoam cheese box that I will use ice packs inside to take the dough ball to market.

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #348 on: October 11, 2012, 01:43:33 PM »
I would have thought 80 degrees F would have been a little too high for a final dough temperature, but will try to get my PG clone dough to that temperature.  I have my little leftover Styrofoam cheese box that I will use ice packs inside to take the dough ball to market.

Norma,

Upon rethinking the matter, why don't you just make the dough the same way as the last one? That was the dough I used as a standard to make the changes in the amount of IDY to use.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #349 on: October 11, 2012, 04:35:28 PM »
Norma,

Upon rethinking the matter, why don't you just make the dough the same way as the last one? That was the dough I used as a standard to make the changes in the amount of IDY to use.

Peter

Peter,

Do you mean I should try to get a lower dough temperature with your new formulation using less IDY?

BTW, I did order a pizza mold today, but it wonít ship out until tomorrow.

Norma