Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 98536 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #350 on: October 11, 2012, 04:51:06 PM »
Do you mean I should try to get a lower dough temperature with your new formulation using less IDY?

Norma,

In Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg215284.html#msg215284, you mentioned that you got a finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F for the last PG clone dough. Since that was the dough that established the reference, something around 75 degrees F should be acceptable as a finished dough temperature for your next PG clone dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:39:22 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #351 on: October 11, 2012, 05:38:24 PM »
Norma,

In Reply 30 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg215284.html#msg215284, you mentioned that you got a finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F for the last PG clone dough. Since that was the dough that established the reference, something around 75 degrees F should be acceptable as a finished dough temperature for your next PG clone dough.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I thought that is what you meant, but wanted to make sure.

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #352 on: October 12, 2012, 12:52:37 PM »
I mixed the PG clone dough ball so it would be finished at 11:00 am this morning.  I sure didnít get the final dough temperature I had wanted to.  The final dough temperature was 70.3 degrees F.  It is cool in my kitchen now and I used a combination of water right out of the fridge and tap water out of the faucet.  I should have used just tap water.  The ambient temperature of my kitchen was 68 degrees F this morning. 

If anyone is interested in how I mixed the PG clone dough I first added the soybean/vegetable oil to the water, then dumped that mixture into my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had placed the salt and IDY on both sides of the flour and just dumped them into the Kitchen Aid mixer.  I used the flat beater for about a minute to incorporate all the ingredients and then switched to the dough hook and mixed for another 7 minutes on speed one.  The dough seemed mixed enough in that amount of time.  I usually use the dough that has been mixed with the flat beater to take any extra oil out of the measuring cup and also out of the container that had the water and oil mixture in it.  I donít know if that is what other members do, but I want to try and get any extra water or oil out of those containers.  The poppy seeds were placed on the PG clone dough ball again.  I didnít leave the lid off of the dough ball in the plastic Glad container because I thought the dough ball was cool enough. 

I also wanted to post that I wasnít sure if regular salt was supposed to be used in any of the attempts with a PG dough, but that is what I used.  I should have asked that question before now.

I will be taking the dough ball to market this afternoon in the Styrofoam container and since it doesnít take that long to get to market, I donít think it will make much, or any difference.   

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #353 on: October 12, 2012, 01:15:21 PM »
I also wanted to post that I wasnít sure if regular salt was supposed to be used in any of the attempts with a PG dough, but that is what I used.  I should have asked that question before now.

Norma,

Yes, I intended that regular salt be used. When I specify Kosher salt, I note it in the dough formulation itself. I can't imagine that Papa Gino's would use anything other than regular salt.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #354 on: October 12, 2012, 01:36:28 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I intended that regular salt be used. When I specify Kosher salt, I note it in the dough formulation itself. I can't imagine that Papa Gino's would use anything other than regular salt.

Peter

Peter,

At least I did use the right salt in the PG clone formulation you set-forth.  I wonder why many pizzerias don't use Kosher salt, when so many members here on the forum do use Kosher salt in their formulations.  I really haven't noticed any differences in any of the pizzas I have tried with regular salt though.  That goes for the Mack's pizzas too.  I don't even know why I use Kosher salt for market, but never tried regular salt in those doughs.

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #355 on: October 12, 2012, 02:18:40 PM »
Norma,

I think that there are perhaps many reasons why pizza operators use ordinary table salt over Kosher salt. I think part of it is just tradition and custom. Also, Kosher salt may be more expensive. And, because it is coarser than ordinary table salt, it dissolves more slowly than table salt. Table salt seems to do equally well whether it is added to the water or to the flour. Some people believe that Kosher salt is "purer" than ordinary table salt but, as far as I can tell, both are highly processed. It isn't until you go to sea salts that you start to get increased purity. Also, sea salt has minerals and other nutrients that yeast likes and that you don't find in ordinary table salt or Kosher salt. Many chefs like to use Kosher salt, especially post-cooking or at the table, because it is easier to handle than ordinary table salt and it adheres to foods better than ordinary table salt. If Kosher salt is to be used for pizza dough, I recommend that it be dissolved in the water.

As far as the dough calculating tools are concerned, they allow one to select among regular salt and Kosher salt (either Morton's or Diamond Crystal). The conversion factors built into the tools ensure that the correct amounts of the various salts appear by volume in the printouts of the tools. There is no specific option for sea salt in the tools because there are just too many types and forms of sea salt. Sea salt is lumped in with regular table salt.

If you would like to read more about the different salts, you might take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4863.msg41202.html#msg41202 and also the threads linked in the first paragraph of that thread.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #356 on: October 12, 2012, 05:59:47 PM »
Norma,

I think that there are perhaps many reasons why pizza operators use ordinary table salt over Kosher salt. I think part of it is just tradition and custom. Also, Kosher salt may be more expensive. And, because it is coarser than ordinary table salt, it dissolves more slowly than table salt. Table salt seems to do equally well whether it is added to the water or to the flour. Some people believe that Kosher salt is "purer" than ordinary table salt but, as far as I can tell, both are highly processed. It isn't until you go to sea salts that you start to get increased purity. Also, sea salt has minerals and other nutrients that yeast likes and that you don't find in ordinary table salt or Kosher salt. Many chefs like to use Kosher salt, especially post-cooking or at the table, because it is easier to handle than ordinary table salt and it adheres to foods better than ordinary table salt. If Kosher salt is to be used for pizza dough, I recommend that it be dissolved in the water.

As far as the dough calculating tools are concerned, they allow one to select among regular salt and Kosher salt (either Morton's or Diamond Crystal). The conversion factors built into the tools ensure that the correct amounts of the various salts appear by volume in the printouts of the tools. There is no specific option for sea salt in the tools because there are just too many types and forms of sea salt. Sea salt is lumped in with regular table salt.

If you would like to read more about the different salts, you might take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4863.msg41202.html#msg41202 and also the threads linked in the first paragraph of that thread.

Peter

Peter,

Wow, I didnít read all of the posts referenced within the links in your first thread before.  I never knew salt in pizza could be so complicated, but it was interesting.  Thanks for finding your thread to explain more about salts.  Novemberís posts are also very interesting even though I donít understand all of them. 

I appreciate you explaining what reasons there are for pizza operators to use ordinary table salt.  I didnít know before that you recommend when using Kosher salt to dissolve it in the water first.  I never do that at market, but will try it. 

I knew the dough calculating tools allow someone to select amount regular salt and either Mortonís or Diamond Crystal Kosher salt.  I didnít think about why there wasnít any specific option for sea salt in the tools, but too many types make sense.  I saw sea salt is lumped in with regular table salt.

Norma   

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #357 on: October 12, 2012, 06:03:12 PM »
This is how the journey of the PG clone dough ball went today.  The PG clone dough ball was taken over to market in the Styrofoam container that is in a cardboard box.  I decided to take the temperature of the deli case to make sure it was right around 40 degrees F.  What I found out was it was at 41.5 degrees F, even though the doors had been closed since Tuesday.  My repairman wonít be able to get to market until this coming week.  I then turned on the pizza prep fridge and tried to get it to about 40 degrees F.  I had problems getting the temperature to exactly 40 degrees F, but it was close at 40.4 degrees F, but I am not sure if it will go lower or not.  I placed the PG clone dough ball in the pizza prep fridge.  I might try to go over to market to try and check on the PG clone dough ball tomorrow.  I had forgotten that there is a flea and antique show at the market tomorrow (until I saw the sign today), but that is only outside. http://www.rootsmarket.com/events.asp  Maybe, the flea market manager would let me go in market and check on the PG clone dough ball and the temperature of the pizza prep fridge.  I know it is important to make sure the temperature of where the dough ball is cold fermenting should be about 40 degrees F.

I found a small can of 6-in-1ís in a cupboard at market today and there is also a can of Classico Peeled Ground Tomatoes at market.  Now I guess I would have to decide which one to use and also how much of other ingredients to add.

Norma

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #358 on: October 12, 2012, 06:30:04 PM »
I went to Papa Ginos last night, when the pizza came out it was a bit smaller then usual. I decided to take a picture of a slice of pizza to give you a picture of how thin the pizza is. This is actually a bit thicker because they didn't stretch it out as big as usual.

 Norma when I was doing the PG cloning efforts I bought some of their cheese and that cheese made my sauce and dough shine. I can't find the cheese they use or any true info on it like brand name anything like that all I know its diced cheese with some oregano in it and the sauce tastes "clean" is the only way I can describe it like not heavy tasting at all.
Jamie


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #359 on: October 12, 2012, 07:01:15 PM »
I went to Papa Ginos last night, when the pizza came out it was a bit smaller then usual. I decided to take a picture of a slice of pizza to give you a picture of how thin the pizza is. This is actually a bit thicker because they didn't stretch it out as big as usual.

 Norma when I was doing the PG cloning efforts I bought some of their cheese and that cheese made my sauce and dough shine. I can't find the cheese they use or any true info on it like brand name anything like that all I know its diced cheese with some oregano in it and the sauce tastes "clean" is the only way I can describe it like not heavy tasting at all.

Jamie,

Thank you so much for taking a picture of the slice you ate at Papa Ginoís last night.  ;D That slice sure looks a lot thinner than my attempts.  Which one of the sauces I posted above in my last post do you advise me to try?  Do you have any idea of how much other ingredients to add to the sauce?  I think I can see a little oregano in the baked cheese (or is that my aging eyes playing tricks on me?).  Could you see any oregano on the baked cheese?  The cheese on the slice you posted looks great.

Thanks so much for your help!  Did you ever clone a PG pie that you thought was really good?  If you did, what post was that in?

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #360 on: October 12, 2012, 07:22:25 PM »
 Norma, no problem Ive been meaning to do that for the thread glad you appreciated it.

 About the sauce I was using Classico tomatoes the crushed ones and that worked but then I found a stanislaus product called san nicola and that really looked like PG sauce, my taste tells me oregano,salt,pepper,and I can't taste garlic at all. But I only see a normal amount of oregano. IMO I would describe PG pizza like this its simple but perfected.
 I think both those products will get you close the PG sauce has a good amount of tomato skins in it. The cheese is fantastic always leaves me wanting more.
 my best and closest pizza was on reply #216
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #361 on: October 12, 2012, 07:41:48 PM »
Norma, no problem Ive been meaning to do that for the thread glad you appreciated it.

 About the sauce I was using Classico tomatoes the crushed ones and that worked but then I found a stanislaus product called san nicola and that really looked like PG sauce, my taste tells me oregano,salt,pepper,and I can't taste garlic at all. But I only see a normal amount of oregano. IMO I would describe PG pizza like this its simple but perfected.
 I think both those products will get you close the PG sauce has a good amount of tomato skins in it. The cheese is fantastic always leaves me wanting more.
 my best and closest pizza was on reply #216

Jamie,

I did enjoy seeing a real slice of a Papa Ginoís pizza.  ;) Since I have never tasted one, it is hard for me to know if mine ever will be the same as a PG pizza, or even close.

Thanks for telling me your closest attempt to a PG pizza was at Reply 216 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg204490.html#msg204490  Your PG clone on that post looked very good.  Your dough formulation looks very similar to what Peter posted for me recently.  How thin was your pizza in that attempt?  Your rim looked a lot better than my attempts.

I appreciate you telling me what kind of Stanislaus product you found that you thought really looked like the PG sauce.  I thought I saw in a video that was posted on Youtube that the sauce had some skins.  Thanks for helping with the ingredients to add to the sauce too.  What does a real PG dough ball feel like?

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #362 on: October 12, 2012, 07:51:51 PM »
Norma,
 my pizza was thin but at PG they stretch it past 14 inches most of the time to about 15.5 inches Id say.
 A real PG dough feels like a 60-62% hydration with full strength flour from gm. when you stretch it it handles perfectly. You stretch it it stays there you suspend it in the air and it doesn't dive for the floor. Just great balance.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #363 on: October 12, 2012, 08:02:49 PM »
Norma,
 my pizza was thin but at PG they stretch it past 14 inches most of the time to about 15.5 inches Id say.
 A real PG dough feels like a 60-62% hydration with full strength flour from gm. when you stretch it it handles perfectly. You stretch it it stays there you suspend it in the air and it doesn't dive for the floor. Just great balance.

Jamie,

Thanks for telling me at PG they stretch the skin past 14Ē to about 15.5Ē.  That is an interesting observation.  I can now see why their slices are thinner.  I wonder if Peter noticed them stretching the 16 oz. dough balls bigger than 14Ē, or if he thought his 14ď pizza was bigger than 14ď.  Thanks also for telling what a real PG dough ball feels like.

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #364 on: October 12, 2012, 08:56:04 PM »
Thanks for telling me at PG they stretch the skin past 14Ē to about 15.5Ē.  That is an interesting observation.  I can now see why their slices are thinner.  I wonder if Peter noticed them stretching the 16 oz. dough balls bigger than 14Ē, or if he thought his 14ď pizza was bigger than 14ď. 

Norma,

I do not recall seeing the worker who made my 14" pizza at PGs stretch the skin beyond 14". To know that, I would have needed a tape measure to measure the skin before it was dressed and baked. However, as I noted in the antepenultimate paragraph of Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg75760.html#msg75760, I did measure the diameter of the baked 14" pizza and it was indeed 14".

To the above, I would add that the idea of stretching the 14" to a larger size did occur to me, starting at about Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70978.html#msg70978 and further discussed at Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71109.html#msg71109. Subsequently, I actually did increase the size of a 14" PG clone skin to 15", as I discussed at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. You might even recall that I suggested that you do the same in case you experienced shrinkage with one of your PG clone skins, as mentioned in Reply 235 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg212301.html#msg212301.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #365 on: October 12, 2012, 09:35:03 PM »
Jamie,

With respect to the PG clone dough formulation that you discussed in Reply 216 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg204490.html#msg204490, it sounds like that dough formulation looked like the one given below, but with an adjustment of the ADY because your scale could not weigh fractions of a gram:

Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
ADY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.75%):
Total (162.95%):
278.37 g  |  9.82 oz | 0.61 lbs
164.24 g  |  5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs
0.56 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
5.57 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.87 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

Do you recall what flour you used and also how much the dough rose after four days of cold fermentation, when you used the dough to make the pizza?

On another matter, what cheese blend did you use, or are now using, and in what amount and in what proportions of the three cheeses?

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #366 on: October 12, 2012, 10:11:28 PM »
Norma,

I do not recall seeing the worker who made my 14" pizza at PGs stretch the skin beyond 14". To know that, I would have needed a tape measure to measure the skin before it was dressed and baked. However, as I noted in the antepenultimate paragraph of Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg75760.html#msg75760, I did measure the diameter of the baked 14" pizza and it was indeed 14".

To the above, I would add that the idea of stretching the 14" to a larger size did occur to me, starting at about Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70978.html#msg70978 and further discussed at Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71109.html#msg71109. Subsequently, I actually did increase the size of a 14" PG clone skin to 15", as I discussed at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. You might even recall that I suggested that you do the same in case you experienced shrinkage with one of your PG clone skins, as mentioned in Reply 235 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg212301.html#msg212301.

Peter


Peter,

I know I havenít read though this whole thread to see what all has been posted and donĎt even recall all that was posted in some links I read before.  Thank you for the links and reminders of all that was posted by you. 

Do you think on my next attempt I should stretch the skin to 15Ē, or should I just go with the 14Ē skin for now.  I donít recall taking the final measurements of the baked attempts of a PG clone I did either to see how large the baked pizza was.  Maybe I should do that in my next attempt.

Norma


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #367 on: October 12, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »
Do you think on my next attempt I should stretch the skin to 15Ē, or should I just go with the 14Ē skin for now.  I donít recall taking the final measurements of the baked attempts of a PG clone I did either to see how large the baked pizza was.  Maybe I should do that in my next attempt.

Norma,

That's up to you but I think it would be interesting to see what results you get if you go to about 15"-15.5". Maybe going to the larger size you will end up with a somewhat smaller rim.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #368 on: October 12, 2012, 10:38:57 PM »
Norma,

That's up to you but I think it would be interesting to see what results you get if you go to about 15"-15.5". Maybe going to the larger size you will end up with a somewhat smaller rim.

Peter

Peter,

I will try to stretch the PG clone skin to 15"-15.5" on Tuesday.  I know I haven't gotten a smaller rim so far. 

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #369 on: October 13, 2012, 12:08:06 PM »
Jamie,

With respect to the PG clone dough formulation that you discussed in Reply 216 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg204490.html#msg204490, it sounds like that dough formulation looked like the one given below, but with an adjustment of the ADY because your scale could not weigh fractions of a gram:

Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
ADY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
.
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.75%):
Total (162.95%):
278.37 g  |  9.82 oz | 0.61 lbs
164.24 g  |  5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs
0.56 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
5.57 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.87 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

Do you recall what flour you used and also how much the dough rose after four days of cold fermentation, when you used the dough to make the pizza?

On another matter, what cheese blend did you use, or are now using, and in what amount and in what proportions of the three cheeses?

Peter

Peter, For that dough I actually used pillsbury4x which surprised me how well it came out.
the cheese wasn't even close to PG I can't remember what brand it was. It was my dough, my sauce which I just spiced with oregano salt and pepper, and the pepperonis that made it taste the closest to PG pizza. The pepperonis I used were from Cara Donna distributor they were their house brand spicy pepperonis
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #370 on: October 13, 2012, 12:14:18 PM »
Jamie,

Thanks. Did you notice how much the dough rose by the time you decided to use it to make a pizza?

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #371 on: October 13, 2012, 12:23:21 PM »
For that dough I actually used pillsbury4x which surprised me how well it came out.

Jamie,

The Pillsbury 4X flour has a protein content of 12.6% +/- 0.3%, whereas the Spring King has a protein content of 13.2%

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #372 on: October 13, 2012, 01:24:36 PM »
Jamie,

Thanks. Did you notice how much the dough rose by the time you decided to use it to make a pizza?

Peter

Peter I just judged by the activity on the bottom of the dough ball and how airy it felt after 4 days it felt right
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #373 on: October 13, 2012, 05:52:13 PM »
I call the manager of the Old mill flea and antique market this morning and asked him if I could go into market and check on the PG clone dough ball.  He said it would be okay.

It was about 10:50 am that I checked on the dough ball and the temperature in the pizza prep fridge.  After all my playing around with the temperature yesterday in the pizza prep fridge the temperature today was 41 degrees F.  I thought I donít want to fool around with the temperature knob anymore and left it the way it was until I have to turn it down Monday.  I hope the 1 degree difference in temperature wonít make much of any difference in the way the PG clone dough ball ferments.  I also am not quite sure if the PG dough ball did ferment a little in one day, or not.  The space between the poppy seeds looks like it changed a little, but it could be just the way I place the measuring tape on the poppy seeds. 

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #374 on: October 13, 2012, 06:59:19 PM »
Norma,

Believe it or not, a one degree difference over 100 hours would have a measurable effect on when the dough doubles in volume. I cannot calculate the time difference, however. If you end up with 41 degrees F as the fermentation temperature until the dough doubles in volume, that in itself will be a nice experiment that will teach us something. But, there is no reason at this juncture to be concerned with a one-degree difference if it comes to that.

Looking at your most recent photos, and especially the one viewed from the bottom of the container, it does appear that the dough is doing something. I estimate an increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds of about 1/32", or maybe a bit less. A spacing of 1/32" translates to an increase in the volume of the dough of about 9.7%.

Peter