Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 78395 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #420 on: October 23, 2012, 09:11:07 PM »
Norma,

For now I am fine with the measurements you have been taking using your measuring tape.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you are fine for now with the measurements I have been taking with my measuring tape. 

I just wanted to let you know that I think the PG clone doubled almost exactly at the right time, (as you predicted) from your calculations.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #421 on: October 24, 2012, 08:50:17 AM »
Steve and I thought the PG clone pizza turned out well.  There was a minor hitch, but all in all, the whole experiment went well. 

The first two pictures of the dough balls, with the spacing of the poppy seeds, show the dough ball at around 9:00 AM in the morning and at about 3:00 PM in the afternoon.  The PG clone dough ball then was taken out of the deli case and left to temper at room temperature until about 4:45 PM.  The ambient room temperature was about 75 degrees F where the PG clone dough ball tempered.  The PG clone dough ball did have some of the dark speckles, but not a lot.

The pizza mold was used again to form the skin, then it was stretched by hand.  The skin stretched easily.  Where the hitch was is that I grabbed two screens and had forgot I have 15Ē and 16Ē screens.  I didnít notice I grabbed two different size screens and placed the skin on top of the 15Ē screen.  I then noticed I had two different size screens and didnít want to disturb the skin, so I just left it that way.  It seemed like the pizza mold did let me have a smaller pronounced rim after stretching the skin.  I think, but am not sure, if I would have used the same size screens, the bottom crust would have browned more evenly, but donít know.  The skin was stretched to 15 Ĺ ď.

The same sauce that Steve prepared from last week was used for the PG clone pizza for this week.  From freezing the sauce it did become a little watery, but I didnít want to drain the water off, or I wouldnít have had enough sauce (6 oz.) for this pizza.  The same cheese blend was used and this time we just sprinkled a little Greek oregano on top of the cheese blend.  The pizza was taken off of the 2 screens when the skin was set.  As can be seen the bottom crust didnít brown evenly.  Steve and I thought the rim size was better in this weeks attempt, in that it wasnít really open and airy from the use of the screens.  The cheese blend melted well and tasted really good.  The crust also had a very good taste.  The baked PG clone pizza right out of the oven weighed 1 lb. 11oz.  When eating this PG clone, the crust was very tender.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #422 on: October 24, 2012, 08:52:56 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #423 on: October 24, 2012, 08:54:22 AM »
Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #424 on: October 24, 2012, 08:55:38 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #425 on: October 24, 2012, 08:57:22 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #426 on: October 24, 2012, 08:58:32 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #427 on: October 24, 2012, 09:00:07 AM »
Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #428 on: October 24, 2012, 09:02:28 AM »
Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #429 on: October 24, 2012, 10:00:11 AM »
Norma,

I think you did very well, even with the minor screen mishap.

Looking at the spacing of the poppy seeds, I don't think you could have done better. The 9:00AM and 3:00PM readings were close but they were both around 100% in terms of increase in volume, just as we were hoping. I estimate that the 1 hour and 45 minute temper time added about another 18-20% increase in volume from the 3:00PM reading. At this point, it looks like the increased finished dough temperature and maybe the short rest at room temperature before going to the refrigerator helped. I think it also helped that you have pretty stable temperatures in your deli case.

It also looks like using the pizza screens helped reduce the bottom crust browning. Next time, to get a bit more bottom crust browning than you got from using two screens, you might try using only one screen. But, overall, your pizza had the general crust coloration of a real PG pizza. As an example, you can compare your pizza with the one I once purchased from a PG store and showed at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg75762.html#msg75762.

The weight of your pizza, at 28 ounces, still seems to be on the low side. It might mean that you need more sauce and/or cheese blend on the pizza, or perhaps a real PG pizza has more cornmeal, but it might also be that your oven bakes differently than a revolving PG oven. It's up to you, but next time you might add a bit more sauce and more of the cheese blend. If you are happy with the flavor of the cheese blend, you could go to 9 ounces for the next test. If you'd like, I can help you with the weights of the three cheeses for that amount of blend.

At least you now have a regimen for the PG clone dough that you can use regularly at market. You may still need to do some occasional adjustment to compensate for seasonal temperature variations, but I would expect such changes to be minor. Changes might also be needed if you decide to go with a much larger batch size than just a single dough ball since your deli case would be trying to cool several dough balls at one time rather than just one.

Thanks again for going through all of the trouble of babysitting your latest PG clone dough ball.

Peter


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #430 on: October 24, 2012, 10:12:28 AM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention in my last post that the rim of your latest PG clone pizza was smaller than your previous PG clone pizzas. What we don't know is if it was because of the use of the pizza mold or the use of the screens and their effect of reducing oven spring. This is something that can be resolved through future tests with and without the screens.

Are you having fun with the pizza mold and are you finding it useful?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #431 on: October 24, 2012, 11:15:52 AM »
Norma,

I think you did very well, even with the minor screen mishap.

Looking at the spacing of the poppy seeds, I don't think you could have done better. The 9:00AM and 3:00PM readings were close but they were both around 100% in terms of increase in volume, just as we were hoping. I estimate that the 1 hour and 45 minute temper time added about another 18-20% increase in volume from the 3:00PM reading. At this point, it looks like the increased finished dough temperature and maybe the short rest at room temperature before going to the refrigerator helped. I think it also helped that you have pretty stable temperatures in your deli case.

It also looks like using the pizza screens helped reduce the bottom crust browning. Next time, to get a bit more bottom crust browning than you got from using two screens, you might try using only one screen. But, overall, your pizza had the general crust coloration of a real PG pizza. As an example, you can compare your pizza with the one I once purchased from a PG store and showed at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg75762.html#msg75762.

The weight of your pizza, at 28 ounces, still seems to be on the low side. It might mean that you need more sauce and/or cheese blend on the pizza, or perhaps a real PG pizza has more cornmeal, but it might also be that your oven bakes differently than a revolving PG oven. It's up to you, but next time you might add a bit more sauce and more of the cheese blend. If you are happy with the flavor of the cheese blend, you could go to 9 ounces for the next test. If you'd like, I can help you with the weights of the three cheeses for that amount of blend.

At least you now have a regimen for the PG clone dough that you can use regularly at market. You may still need to do some occasional adjustment to compensate for seasonal temperature variations, but I would expect such changes to be minor. Changes might also be needed if you decide to go with a much larger batch size than just a single dough ball since your deli case would be trying to cool several dough balls at one time rather than just one.

Thanks again for going through all of the trouble of babysitting your latest PG clone dough ball.

Peter


Peter,

I was half surprised that you could know how much the spacing of the poppy seeds would be on Tuesday.  Was that from your own calculations, or did Novembers ideas help you.  I was glad the poppy seeds spacing was about right for the PG clone dough ball to have doubled in the 4 day cold ferment time frame.

I will try only one pizza screen in my next attempt.  

My oven probably does bake differently than a revolving PG oven, but I can add a bit more sauce and more of the cheese blend the next time.  I also didnít get all of the sauce out of the container from where it was weighed.  It is just too hard to do that and some sauce also stuck to the ladle that the sauce was applied from.  I donít know if the water in the sauce from it being frozen also added to a weight loss when it was baked on the PG pizza.  I think if the pictures from last week are look at the sauce did look thicker. What amount of sauce do you suggest I try next?  I am happy with the flavor of the cheese blend, but do need help with the weights of the three cheeses blend if I go with 9 ounces the next time, if that isnít too much trouble for you.

Thanks for the link to the PG pizza you purchased so I could see what the general crust coloration looked like.  

I know I have a good regimen now for the PG clone dough if I want to use it at market.  I really donít think my cooler at market has a hard time cooling down dough balls, because they are just in plastic bags.  

I donít mind babysitting any dough ball.  That is the way I learn.  


Norma,

I forgot to mention in my last post that the rim of your latest PG clone pizza was smaller than your previous PG clone pizzas. What we don't know is if it was because of the use of the pizza mold or the use of the screens and their effect of reducing oven spring. This is something that can be resolved through future tests with and without the screens.

Are you having fun with the pizza mold and are you finding it useful?

Peter


I also thought the rim of my latest PG clone pizza was smaller then my previous PG clone attempts.  It is interesting that we donít know if that was from the use of the pizza mold, or the use of the screens.  

I am having fun with the pizza mold, but didnít get to try it out a lot yesterday on my regular dough balls.  Maybe next week.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 03:55:23 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #432 on: October 24, 2012, 11:43:29 AM »
I was half surprised that you could know how much the spacing of the poppy seeds would be on Tuesday.  Was that from your own calculations, or did Novembers ideas help you.  I was glad the poppy seeds spacing was about right for the PG clone dough ball to have doubled in the 4 day cold ferment time frame.

Norma,

It's a combination of understanding the principles involved, which come largely from November's work, and developing a sixth sense that comes with experience. The math in this case was very simple, as I noted at Reply 344 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg216326.html#msg216326, but I needed a data point somewhere along the fermentation process, in this case, the measurement of the spacing between the poppy seeds. Once I saw the extent of the change in the spacing of the poppy seeds by Monday when you were at market, that gave me an idea as to the rate of expansion of the dough and where the dough was likely to end up at the end of the planned fermentation period if nothing changed from that point, like moving the dough ball from one cooling unit to another with a different temperature. My "sixth sense" told me that we were very likely to be very close to where we wanted to be by 3:00PM on Tuesday. I also knew that if we were off, it would be very little. Since temperature is a variable factor that we can't always control to the degree we would like, the next time the results might be different. But I would hope that the endpoint would be close to what you achieved with your most recent PG clone dough.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #433 on: October 24, 2012, 11:56:15 AM »
What amount of sauce do you suggest I try next?  I am happy with the flavor of the cheese blend, but do need help with the weights of the three cheeses blend if I go with 9 ounces the next time, if that isnít too much trouble for you.

Norma,

Next time you might go with 6.5 ounces of pizza sauce, by weight. As for the cheese blend, 9 ounces of that blend based on a ratio of 75/23/2 translates into 191.4 grams of low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, 58.7 grams of white aged cheddar cheese, and 5.1 grams of grated Romano cheese. These changes will add about another ounce to the pizza weight after baking. That may still result in a somewhat underweight pizza but without more data on typical PG cheese pizzas, and considering that your oven may not bake the same as a PG oven, it is hard to say what the real number should be for your clones.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #434 on: October 24, 2012, 04:01:01 PM »
Norma,

It's a combination of understanding the principles involved, which come largely from November's work, and developing a sixth sense that comes with experience. The math in this case was very simple, as I noted at Reply 344 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg216326.html#msg216326, but I needed a data point somewhere along the fermentation process, in this case, the measurement of the spacing between the poppy seeds. Once I saw the extent of the change in the spacing of the poppy seeds by Monday when you were at market, that gave me an idea as to the rate of expansion of the dough and where the dough was likely to end up at the end of the planned fermentation period if nothing changed from that point, like moving the dough ball from one cooling unit to another with a different temperature. My "sixth sense" told me that we were very likely to be very close to where we wanted to be by 3:00PM on Tuesday. I also knew that if we were off, it would be very little. Since temperature is a variable factor that we can't always control to the degree we would like, the next time the results might be different. But I would hope that the endpoint would be close to what you achieved with your most recent PG clone dough.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for explaining that understanding the principles, in addition to your sixth sense, is how you knew that we would be close, or right on the target on Tuesday at 3:00 PM.   I can understand that the final dough temperature and the temperature in the cooler are important. 

Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #435 on: October 24, 2012, 04:05:56 PM »
Norma,

Next time you might go with 6.5 ounces of pizza sauce, by weight. As for the cheese blend, 9 ounces of that blend based on a ratio of 75/23/2 translates into 191.4 grams of low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, 58.7 grams of white aged cheddar cheese, and 5.1 grams of grated Romano cheese. These changes will add about another ounce to the pizza weight after baking. That may still result in a somewhat underweight pizza but without more data on typical PG cheese pizzas, and considering that your oven may not bake the same as a PG oven, it is hard to say what the real number should be for your clones.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to use 6.5 ounces of pizza sauce in the next PG attempt and for doing the calculations for each amount of cheese in grams for the cheese blend. 

Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #436 on: October 26, 2012, 09:11:35 AM »
Since the local weathermen are keeping an eye on hurricane Sandy in our area, I am not making a PG clone dough ball this morning.  A hurricane in our area depends on when the hurricane turns, but the weathermen in our area are saying it looks ominous for our area right now and it could start raining on Sunday and continue until Thursday.  If a strong storm impacts our area I know I probably wonít be going to market.

To start a PG clone dough ball today is not of much use, unless I should try to bake the PG clone dough ball in my home oven, or wait to see if the hurricane impacts our area.   

The following Wednesday the 7th of November my brother from Colorado is coming to visit for a week, so I am not sure if I will make a PG clone dough ball that week either. 

Norma
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #437 on: October 30, 2012, 09:41:33 AM »
   

Peter - is this the formula that you recommend if I wanted to jump in here?  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg213221.html#msg213221     I have a gas oven/fibrament stone (i also have cheaper stones)

Just found a source for Spring King flour about 20 minutes away.  They must be a small bakery distributor as they don't have a website, I'll grab a product list while I'm there.  Always fun to find new food sources.   


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #438 on: October 30, 2012, 10:23:51 AM »
Peter - is this the formula that you recommend if I wanted to jump in here?  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg213221.html#msg213221     I have a gas oven/fibrament stone (i also have cheaper stones)

Deb,

Yes, I would say that that formulation is a good one to start with. That formulation is intended for a three-day cold fermentation period, with the goal of having the dough about double in volume by that time. However, the actual results will depend on the temperature of your refrigerator during fermentation. You might use the poppy seed trick and watch the spacing as the dough expands in volume. When the spacing goes from 1" (the starting spacing) to about 1 1/4", that would represent a doubling. But even a tripling in volume will work.

If you use the poppy seed trick and you are able to monitor the spacing until the dough doubles in volume, you might want to note the time that it took for the dough to reach that point, along with your refrigerator temperature. You might also note when the dough went into the refrigerator and its finished dough temperature. These numbers might tell us how to adjust the yeast quantity to better fit your particular situation, or maybe even a different one.

I don't have a gas oven so I can't say how the pizza will bake in such an oven. So, from a baking standpoint, I would treat the pizza as you would another one, such as a NY style, for example. As far as the stone is concerned, I think I would go with the FibraMent stone.

Good luck. I look forward to your results.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #439 on: November 02, 2012, 11:45:30 AM »
Another PG clone dough ball was mixed this morning.  The PG clone dough was finished mixing right after 11:00 AM.  The final dough temperature was 80.5 degrees F.  The dough was scaled back to 16 ounces.  I left the dough ball sit out for 15 minutes then put it in the fridge.  I will take the PG clone dough ball over to market today.

Norma
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