Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe (Read 49716 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:01:47 PM »

John,

When I have done this sort of thing, I weigh the cheeses, sauce and toppings in advance and note their weights for record purposes. That way, if I forget for some reason to tare out the scale when adding a particular component, I still have the weight values. When I am ready to assemble the pizza, I tare out the carrier (peel or screen) and build the pizza on the carrier. I then note the weight of the unbaked pizza. I also weigh the baked pizza. That way, I can determine what percent of the weight of the unbaked pizza was lost during baking. To weigh the baked pizza, I put a cooling rack/grid on my scale, tare it out, and then put the baked pizza on the cooling rack/grid. That way, I am not putting a hot pizza directly on the scale (my scale has a glass top).

I look forward to your results. I think the most important thing at this point is to try to get the right proportions--the right amounts of dough, sauce, cheeses and toppings.

Peter

zalicious · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:57:28 PM »

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread

.Our family used to frequent a Papa Gino's in Nbpt, MA until the early 90's when we left the area. Besides the yummy pizza, I always enjoyed their meatball subs. The kids loved the jukeboxes on the tables

.
I'll have to try this, hopefully this weekend.
You guys are great. Thanks for the memories

.

JConk007 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:17:12 PM »

I think I am Remebering a Pa Pa Platter with Ravioli, Spagetti, and Meatballs ? do they stilll do that on the menu. (hey It was 25 yrs ago!) with a few slices of Painted with butter bread sliced on the angle. That was a big hit for me too at the time. Cant wait to try out the formula. I have never diced cheese in food proceesor before

hope I can figure that simple machine out. Perhaps a picture of diced cheese via FP, so I get the right consistancy?
Thank you
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:31:47 PM »

John,

From the Papa Gino's menu at http://www.papaginos.com/standard_menu.html:

Papa Platter Pasta Sampler $6.79
Your choice of Barilla spaghetti or penne, 2 jumbo cheese raviolis and 2 of Papa Gino's famous Italian meatballs. Served with a cheese breadstick.

I will try to give you a photo tomorrow of some diced cheese.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:35:00 PM »

Thats the one!! Flash Back

Loved it ! the only difference is the cheese bread stick instead of the angle sliced thin flat soft garlic type bread. Ohn I checked the site and the store I ate at 25 years ago so often, Lake shore road Gilford NH is still listed !says something about their franchise to stil be hangin in there the competition was the greek House of pizza guys scattered all over town.

Thanks Peter!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:23:10 AM »

John,

I have provided a photo below of a sample of diced mozzarella cheese. Remember, I suggested diced cheeses only because that was your memory of the form of cheese used by Papa Gino's. If that has changed, then you would perhaps want to use the current method.

The diced mozzarella cheese shown in the photo was diced in my Cuisinart food processor with the metal blade and using only the pulse feature. With a food processor, you can get essentially any size dice you want. What I have shown in the photo is the size that I estimated Papa John's was using when I was going through all of my PJ clone pizzas. I found that it was best to dice the cheese while it was on the cool side, right out of the refrigerator. Using room temperature cheese does not work as well and might even gum up the food processor.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:13:59 AM »

Thank you,
Helps a lot to see it , Yes thats what I remeber, but like I said, I remember the ferris wheel oven clearly as well. I dont have KASL but I did find a bag of King Arthur Artisan Flour , think that might work? Not sure on figuring the protein levels out yet I know we are looking for around 14% for this dough right?
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:28:19 AM »

John,

If the King Arthur Artisan flour is the one shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-european-style-artisan-bread-flour-3-lb, then that is a flour with a protein content that is the same as the KA all-purpose flour (11.7%). Under the circumstances, it would be better to use King Arthur bread flour, either alone (12.7% protein) or as supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to get to a total protein content of around 14.2%. If you decide to go the VWG route, and you can tell me the brand of VWG you have on hand, I can help you with the numbers. I would not try to supplement the KA Artisan flour with the VWG.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:33:18 AM »

Peter,
Yes thats the one I have will use for french bread with my copipus spare time

So High protien = High Gluten right?I have plenty of KABF and do have VWG , KA I believe, and hoping to grab a few Lbs. of AT from my local pizza guy.
Thanks

JConk007 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:57:59 AM »

Peter,
Question on the sauce?
The ingredients include Citric acid in the tomatoes. 6 in 1 s contain No citric acis even though Scott mentioned it was a basic 6 in 1 sauce? I have a can of Wal mart Value brand , which I picked upi because I have read some good things on the forums about that does contain citric acid as an ingredient. Should I try those?
Also I am my be using KABF + ? of VWG
Thanks Making dough tonight
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #30 on:** March 20, 2009, 09:01:33 AM »

John,

I would go with the 6-in-1s if you have them.

What brand of vital wheat gluten do you have?

Also, how many dough balls do you plan to make?

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 20, 2009, 09:16:39 AM »

Reply 28 I have KA VWG I will use the 6 in 1 s
2 - 14" I plan to try 1 plain so I can taste the result w / out pepperoni. and the 1 Papa Roni loaded

with how many slices?
Thanks again making dough tonight and Pizza Sat and Sunday so I will also try 1 dough each day and see if I notice a difference in the extra days fermentation
JOhn

Pete-zza · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2009, 09:56:58 AM »

John,

I forgot that King Arthur sells a re-branded vital wheat gluten (VWG). I thought that they sold one of the popular retail brands. To confirm the protein content of the KAVWG, I checked their website and also called KA and spoke with someone in the bakery department. Both sources indicate that the protein content is 77.8%. The person I spoke with did not know who supplies the VWG to them. That isn't important here--I just wanted to add the information to my personal database.

Using November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, I calculated that the 20.06 ounces of flour in the dough formulation I previously gave you (for two dough balls to make two 14" pizzas) converts to 19.60 ounces of KABF and 0.4622 ounces of KAVWG. The 0.4622 ounces of KAVWG is a bit over 4 1/3 teaspoons.

Papa Gino's says in its nutrition data that a 14" pizza is eight slices.

In rereading scott r's post on cheeses, he indicated that the cheddar cheese that PG uses is not "sharp". That suggests that you might use the "mild" fat-reduced white cheddar cheese if you can get it. In the final analysis, I don't think that it will matter much what type of cheddar cheese is used, even if it throws off some of the numbers. It is only to try to zero in on the numbers as closely as we can for the first recreation.

I look forward to your results and your report. I also hope that zalicious gives the PG clone a whirl so that we have two reports.

Peter

scott r · « **Reply #33 on:** March 20, 2009, 11:27:34 AM »

While Papa Gino's makes a good pizza, and I am truly amazed that Peter figured out that they are using lower fat cheddar just from crunching numbers, I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to duplicate the cheese to that extent. I think that the sauce and crust are the best parts of this pizza, and using a full fat mild white cheddar probably makes a tastier product. I have noticed that some of the better pizzerias in the area using white cheddar buy the Cabot brand, and that is good for home pizza making purposes because it is also sold on the retail level.

As far as the sauce goes, any california packed tomatoes that are of high quality should work as well. Tomato Magic, 7/11, 6 in 1's, Patstene kitchen ready, or even some Hunts products would get you very close.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:14:08 PM »

scott,

I was going mainly on cholesterol numbers because the only place that cholesterol shows up in a basic cheese pizza is in animal-origin (not vegetable-origin) ingredients, in this case, the cheeses, since there is no animal fat in the dough or sauce based on the PG ingredient lists for the dough and sauce. Of course, when pepperoni is used, it will also add cholesterol because it is animal based. When I analysed the total fat content between a basic PG cheese pizza and the pepperoni and Paparoni pizzas, the numbers I came up with for the pepperoni slices for the two pepperoni pizzas seemed to line up quite well with the increased total fat numbers.

I have found that trying to reverse engineer pizzas using nutrition data is not all that easy because you are trying to use data for a baked pizza, where all kinds of transformations take place, including loss of weight, to divine what is in the unbaked pizza. In the present case, it is possible that less cheese is used for a 14" pizza than I proposed, which would help the cholesterol numbers, but if that is so then that would mean that more dough and/or sauce would have to be used to make the total numbers work out from a weight standpoint. It is also quite possible that PG is using a proprietary cheese blend formulated to their specific requirements, just as they apparently do with the flour. I have also seen instances where I wonder whether the nutrition data is even correct. I also allow for the possibility that my analysis can be wrong.

My first cut is always to try to get as close as possible to the real thing. If that works based on the feedback from the members who tried to recreate the pizzas in question, then my work is pretty much done and it is up to those who cherish the pizzas to try to bridge any gaps or to make changes to improve the pizzas. However, in my experience, people seem to be more interested in recreating the product--usually for nostalgic reasons--rather than improving it.

BTW, I zeroed in on Cabot only because of its proximity to the PG footprint with its stores.

Peter

scott r · « **Reply #35 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:28:52 PM »

Peter, you are amazing! I am always in awe of your tenacity and dedication to this forum!

Quote from: Pete-zza on March 20, 2009, 12:14:08 PM

scott,

It is also quite possible that PG is using a proprietary cheese blend formulated to their specific requirements, just as they apparently do with the flour.

Papa Gino's actually has their own cheese manufacturing facility.

JConk007 · « **Reply #36 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:42:09 PM »

As allways You are quite correct Peter,
If I did not want to try and obtain that nostalic flavor I remember, I would just make another Reinhart or Lehman dough. Thats what I love about trying new recipes, like the P hut pan... that I used to eat.
I am quite interested to see how the flavor comes out with the formula you put forth and I also appreciate your commitment to this forum. I hope I can bring out some interesting feed back with the results, and I do have the non sharp version of the cheddar.
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #37 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:35:38 PM »

John,

Unfortunately, nostalgia is a moving target and will mean something different to someone who ate PG pizzas, say, five years ago than to someone who ate PG pizzas thirty years ago. It is inevitable that over time the finished product will change as dough formulations, available ingredients and suppliers change, as mixers, coolers, ovens and dough processing/management change, and as nutritional demands change. For example, for the last few years, pizza operators have been working hard to remove trans fats from as many of their products as possible. Most operators of multiple units are also careful not to make too many changes at one time or to make them too quickly since they don't want their patrons to notice that things are changing. But, over time, there will be changes. That alone will make nostalgia a moving target.

It is always interesting and amusing to me how pizzerias try to maintain the image of using secret recipes that originated in Italy and were handed down from generation to generation. Even Papa Gino's does it, as you can see at their website at http://www.papaginos.com/corporate/who_we_are_pg.html. Yet, their dough is made from wheat flour, water, dry yeast (which would have been ADY when the predecessor of PG was founded) and salt. You can't get any more basic or simpler than that. Their sauce is tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid. I'd like to know where the secrets are.

Peter

November · « **Reply #38 on:** March 20, 2009, 06:44:12 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on March 20, 2009, 05:35:38 PM

I'd like to know where the secrets are.

In a brown paper bag sitting at the corner of 4^th and Legend.

zalicious · « **Reply #39 on:** March 20, 2009, 06:52:40 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on March 20, 2009, 09:56:58 AM

John,

I look forward to your results and your report. I also hope that zalicious gives the PG clone a whirl so that we have two reports.

Peter

*Gasp*

! Now the pressure is really on

.