Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 94707 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2009, 02:18:40 PM »
and some cross sections. I tried to keep the rim small and well defined ( thin just inside rim) was difficult with that size and did not want to tear dough so here how they looked
And Man it was GOOD! I loved the diced cheese blend, the dought was perfect with no oil or sugar, the sauce could use some tinkering, but as you all now its hard to wrong with the 6 in 1s but nt sure thats the flavor I rememeber. I did not dd too much of any of the 4 sauce ingredients as per scott r thanks to you also scott! enjoy! this is a keeper!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2009, 03:02:04 PM »
John,

Thank you for being a real trouper and trying out the Papa Gino's pepperoni clone dough/pizza. By any chance, did you weigh the baked pizza to allow calculation of the loss of weight during baking? Based on your numbers, it looks like the total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 34.25 ounces (16 oz. dough + about 5.75 oz. sauce + 9.55 oz. diced cheese blend + 2.95 oz. pepperoni slices = 34.25 oz.). For comparison purposes, a baked (and cooled) PG pepperoni pizza weighs 34.71 ounces according to the PG nutrition information, but unbaked it would weigh more. Did you use the convection feature of your oven?

The pizza does look very tasty. I'd be interested in any other observations you might have. For example, was the crust of the right thickness based on your recollections, and is there anything you would change in the dough, including the way the dough skin is shaped/stretched? And what do you think you would change in the sauce?

Peter

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3095
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2009, 04:01:35 PM »
Great job!  the pizza looks very good.   It does look a bit thicker than the papa, was it stretched out to the full size?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2009, 08:26:41 PM »
scott,

In a thread on the Sbarro's pizza, a pizza mold is shown at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg39550.html#msg39550. In a later post, at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40453.html#msg40453, mention is made that Papa Gino's uses such a mold. Did you ever see such a mold at PG's? I am wondering whether such a mold produces the type of rim that the PG photos show.

Peter

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2009, 09:17:03 PM »
Scott,
Yes a bit thicker than what I remember, apparently not stretched all the way. My peel is 13 1/2 inches and I was within that prob. 12 - 12 1/2 pie I found it hard to get stretched out all the way. I made 2 balls and let the other go another day. That was even harder to get stretched but you can see on the picks this one takes up the entire 13 1/2 inches I did plain cheese to taste the dough. Even though the dough weighed the same and was stretched out further it had even more hieght crumbb thru out the entire pizza is that because of the 2 + day rise? I had it just about paper thin before placing on peel? still the crumb was more open. I must say it did taste really good!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 09:47:43 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
!
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2009, 09:21:23 PM »
Peter the 5.75 sauce was ok but the 9.4 oz cheese was too much I took the cheese down to like 8.5 oz. wrked better for me. I kept the sauce at 6.05 still had some major crumb in the pie and a nice rim. Prob just right for a true 14"  I could not have gotten any thinner without tearing so I dont know how it grew as it did. All in all a good try with good results. I would go no more than 9 oz  diced  on a true 14 inch skin and keep the sauce below 6 oz. Heres the one from tonight
John
.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:07:12 AM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: !
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2009, 10:25:43 PM »
I would go no more than 6 oz  diced  on a true 14 inch skin and keep the sauce below 9 oz. Heres the one from tonight

John,

Also a nice looking pizza. Of the two pizzas, which did you like better?

In the above quote, did you mean to say no more than 6 ounces of sauce and keep the cheese blend below 9 ounces, rather than the other way around?

Also, did you use the convection feature for the two pizzas?

Peter

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2009, 08:17:18 AM »
oops !yes Peter I corrected my post thank you. I think I ate too much pizza this weekend! Also did a BTB Malnatis. I will post over there in my Chicago thread.
I like the second Pizza better. Less is better on the cheese and sauce for the same size. As Scott mentioned it is a bit thicker than they serve at PG or that I remember eating. I would have to translate the formula down to a 12" pie so I can stretch it properly and to get the correct thickness factor. My wolf oven has a bake stone feature. that is the setting I used. Its an element on the bottom with a nice thick stone 14 X16 working surface. I have some pictures of it somewhere, here but cant remember where I posted them. found em  :) advanced search http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7868.msg67521.html#msg67521 When using this option the dual fans do run in the back of the oven (like the convection mode) I did not check temp of stone( should Have) or Final weight ( should Have) but I know if I preheat at 550 for 45 min the stone is at  least 625.
These pies were done at 450 oven setting.
again very satisfiying for those with a good stone and a lower temp. oven I would recommend trying this pizza.
Thanks for the help !
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:28:30 AM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3095
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2009, 09:51:56 AM »
yes, I have seen the molds in use at some locations, but it seems the older and more experienced pizza makers are allowed to go freehand.   


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2009, 11:10:57 AM »
scott,

As you know, a pizza can shrink from the size on the peel as it is loaded into the oven, resulting in a somewhat smaller pizza after baking. In fact, pizzerias are sometimes accused of intentionally "shrinking" the size of the pizzas to save money when it was really only a natural shrinkage. I wonder whether opening up a 16-ounce dough ball to, say, 15", might yield a slightly thinner crust for the baked pizza while ending up with a 14" pizza. I am still trying to figure out the relative weights of the dough, sauce and cheese to fit the nutrition data for the PG pizzas in terms of the weights of the baked pizzas. When I made all of the Papa John's 14" clone pizzas, I experienced weight losses of around 7% in my oven.

Peter

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2009, 12:47:10 PM »
I agree Peter,
The second one I made completely cover and draped over the edge of the peel so I was close very close to 14" you can see by the picture how it ended up on the peel just before the trip into the oven. I would say It shrunk 1-1.5 inches minimum. and it was to room temp. I remember the ones from the 70s seemed bigger than the ones from the 90s or maybe I was that much smaller so they looked bigger?
The 2 day dough was very active a lot of gas bubbles when resting prior to stretch and during stretch in the rim, What exactly causes that? It was much different than say the Reinhart I have done that spreads right out, and can be tossed about. Still not sure about the sauce. I am used to the 6-1 on the deep dish so I think I was looking for something different tasting with the sauce. Citric acid? maybe a bit smoother/ thinner (not quant)? regardless you still cant buy anything as good as these tasted, at least around here, and it sure is fun trying! :chef:
oh I did plan to weigh the second one after blowing it on the first but oh no slice and dice everybody's hungry! sorry
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:50:41 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2009, 01:13:03 PM »
John,

A longer fermentation time will affect the handling qualities of a pizza dough, and a long warm-up time can produce a lot of bubbles in the dough. The Reinhart NY style dough is a substantially different formulation and has a lot of oil in it, which will also help in shaping and stretching out the dough. As you know, there is no oil in the Papa Gino's dough, just flour, water, salt and yeast. It is mainly the water in the dough and the enzyme activity and its effect on the gluten that gives the dough its fluidity. I don't know what delivery cycle PG uses in delivering dough balls to their stores (Papa John's does twice a week deliveries) but maybe using less yeast and a lower hydration is something worth considering for a two-day (or longer) cold fermented dough. Using the dough with a shorter warm-up time, or perhaps none at all if the dough is amenable, might also be something worth considering.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2009, 01:16:54 PM »
John,

I forgot to ask but did you use cornmeal on the board when shaping and stretching the dough out to size?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 05:40:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2009, 08:09:32 PM »
Peter,
Yes I did use the recommended amount of cornmeal for stretching the dough a touch of flour on the peel as the excess cornmeal burns on the stone. You can see a bit of the ground cornmeal on the peel in some of the pictures.
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:11:31 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline zalicious

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 157
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2009, 01:04:12 AM »
Well, I made my dough & sauce this morning before work. I put a 2 pie batch in my breadmaker for 5 minutes, (so I could enjoy my morning coffee while it did some of the work ;)). I let it sit for a little bit, & then I hand kneaded it for an additional 5 min.
For the sauce, I used the Pastene that Scottr recommended. To it, I added 1t oregano, 1/8t garlic, & 1/8t freshly ground black pepper. I have reservations about the sauce, as I usually use a bit more than this for seasonings. I came up with these numbers after going through my numerous cookbooks, & seeing what was generally used for a simple/not highly seasoned, sauce. Hope to have at least 1 of these pies cooked tomorrow.

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2009, 12:39:20 PM »
Boy Za You have great taste in garlic powder!
So I too was a bit confused by the sauce ??? and not able to get the taste I was looking for with the 6 in 1s or the ingredients for the PG taste I remember Maybe I did not add enough of one or each? so please measure what you put in. As I told you I wung it and wish I measured totals of each. Dont forget the Oregano in the cheese too. are you dicing or shredding and what kind? Thanks, and glad your feeling better!
JC
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline zalicious

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 157
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2009, 01:40:22 PM »
Boy Za You have great taste in garlic powder!
So I too was a bit confused by the sauce ??? and not able to get the taste I was looking for with the 6 in 1s or the ingredients for the PG taste I remember Maybe I did not add enough of one or each? so please measure what you put in. As I told you I wung it and wish I measured totals of each. Dont forget the Oregano in the cheese too. are you dicing or shredding and what kind? Thanks, and glad your feeling better!
JC

I chuckled, too, when I saw we used the same garlic.
As far as the sauce goes, I carefully measured, (cause I didn't think it was going to be enough, but scott had said to just use a little; so that's why I started my cookbook search to see what a little might be). Can you make a guess on how much you put in?
I used, per 28 oz can:
1t oregano
1/8t garlic
1/8t freshly ground bl pepper

Quite a while ago, when I was trying to get a Boston area flavor to my sauce, scott had said that a lot of the pizzerias in that area used Stanislaus 7/11, he also suggested the Pastene as an alternative. I've been much happier with my sauces in general since switching to that brand.

As far as the cheese goes, my mozz is shredded. The cheddar, unfortunately, is slices I just bought at the deli, as I forgot to buy the white cheddar >:(. I will crumble them, & put them under the mozz to hide the fact that they are yellow ;D. I'll be using shredded Parmesan instead of the Romano.

I'm going to toss the oregano into my mozz right now, so I don't forget it. The sight of the oregano on your cheese pizza had made me drool ;).


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2009, 02:21:06 PM »
zalicious,

As I noted earlier in Reply 37, the ingredients listing for the Papa Gino's pizza sauce is tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid. It is hard to say whether the pecking order is right, by weight, because the ingredients listing for the dough are not correctly presented at the PG website. It is also hard to tell whether any salt is added to the tomatoes beyond the sodium already contained in the tomatoes used in the PG sauce (a typical 28-ounce can of crushed tomatoes will have sodium equivalent to about 1/2 teaspoon of salt). However, if we assume that the pecking order for the PG tomato sauce given above is correct, then that would say that there is more black pepper by weight than oregano and more oregano (by weight) than garlic powder. I recently had occasion to study weights of ingredients like oregano (1 t. = 2g.), ground black pepper (1 t. = 2g.), and garlic powder (1 t. = 2.67g.), and, on the basis of the amounts of those ingredients you will be using, your pecking order would be oregano, garlic powder and black pepper. I don't want to bias your results, but you might want to take note of the prominence of the oregano in the sauce in relation to what you remember about the flavors of the PG pizzas you had.

Peter


Offline zalicious

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 157
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2009, 03:00:16 PM »
Yes, I did note the pecking order of the seasonings, but didn't know how to use that info for amounts to put in. I left out the salt because it was already in the can, & I figured that might be enough. Unfortunately, I'm flying blind because I don't remember what PG tasted like; I only know that I liked it. Would these amounts be more appropriate?
1/2t salt
3/8t pepper
1/4t oregano
1/8t garlic
I'm really at a loss here. Advice more than welcome :).

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2009, 03:26:50 PM »
zalicious,

That pecking order would work. You won't need to add any salt to the tomatoes unless you think that it is needed.

Since you will be using freshly ground black pepper, I think I would add it gradually and taste it as you do so to be sure that the sauce doesn't become too peppery. About the best we can do is to get the order of ingredients right. There are too many possible combinations to get the amounts of the ingredients right.

It will be interesting to see how the Pastene tomatoes work out.

Peter

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2009, 03:38:14 PM »
Thats probably close to what I used about 4 shakes of that special Garlic, a good pinch of salt, 5 turns on the pepper mill. and not too much 1/4 t  2 pinches/shakes of the large container of the oregano as there is some in the cheese. Hows that for technical? I could taste the prevalence of the oregano in my pies,  but I do not remember that flavor so much in the PGs I ate? I think the Pastenes may make some difference.  Hope  that helps (doubt it)
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline zalicious

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 157
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2009, 09:14:47 PM »
Got one of the pies cooked, & devoured, tonight.
After fretting over the seasoning amounts in the sauce, I opened up another can of Pastenes Kitchen Ready & added:
1/2t salt ( this can was salt free )
3/8t  fresh ground bl pepper
1/4t oregano
1/8t garlic

I let it sit for awhile, & then did a taste test of the 2 sauces. I liked the first one better (1t oregano, 1/8t fresh ground bl pepper, & 1/8t garlic with the approx 1/2t salt that Peter said would be in the can already).
When my husband came home, I had him taste the 2 sauces also. He choose the first one, too. What can I say, we like oregano ;).

I stretched the dough, with a bit of difficulty, to 14". When it was done, it measured 13".

We both loved the pie; crust, sauce, cheese blend ( with 4 healthy shakes of oregano added to the mozz ), everything. I will do this recipe again. The only problem is that it's been so long since we've had PG, we don't know how this compares.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2009, 09:29:13 PM »
zalicious,

Very nice job. Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the effort. I hope that fredyk82 returns to see the very good work that you, John and scott r did in trying to recreate the Papa Gino's pizzas. When I am next up in the Boston area, I will certainly have to check out the PG pizzas for myself. I will plan to make my own PG clone just before such a trip so that is firmly in my memory by the time I try a real PG pizza. Hopefully, in the meantime, more intelligence will emerge on their pizzas that will fill in some of the remaining blanks.

I plan soon to move this thread to the General Pizza Making board since it no longer falls in the Newbie category.

Peter

Offline zalicious

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 157
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2009, 09:41:48 PM »
"Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the effort."

( Pats satisfied belly ) No problem, Peter. ;D

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3095
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 01:17:41 AM »
I went to PG today to do some research.

There was LOTS of cornmeal on the pizza. No dough molds were used, even with some younger pizza makers.  There was very little cheese on the pizza,  certainly less than I see here in the pictures.  Maybe they have reduced their amounts with the recession like everyone else seems to be doing.   Cheese was very mild...... not much bite from the cheddar in there.   Also, the pies were almost raw inside.  very undercooked.  Still, somehow, it was a good pizza!


 

pizzapan