Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout

[Matthew]

I have used the "1847 Oregon Trail" starter in the past with mixed results.


[/quote]


I too have a package of Carl's sourdough, is it worth activating?
I've been using Camaldoli with excellent results; it's extremely active.  I have yet to activate my Ischia. 

[Matthew]

Spent a good part of the past month messing around with cultures with respect to temperature, time, and type. Although temperature control with the MR-138 is problematic (but much better than nothing), my testing shows the Camaldoli prefers a two-day 65F-70F regimen while the Ischia seems to come out better with 1-day at 70F-75F. But which is better? Today I was able to bake up pies from both batches (using a little wine cooler for the Camaldoli). I thought both were great, with the Camaldoli having a more delicate flavor, but everyone agreed that the Ischia worked better as a whole with the other ingredients. At least until the next batch.   

Here are photos of the last pie - yes, it has a lot of cheese. The last pie always gets whatever toppings are left over.   

Bill/SFNM

Hi Bill,
Can you kindly share your dough formulation?

Thanks,
Matt

[Bill/SFNM]

Hi Bill,
Can you kindly share your dough formulation?

Thanks,
Matt

For 6 pies (240g of dough per 10"-12"pie)

870g Caputo "00" Pizzeria Flour
527g water
91g Ischia, activated
26g salt

1-2 day room temp bulk fermentation
shape
5 hour proof
Top, bake @ 900F-975F (deck temp) for 45-60 seconds

[JConk007]

And you kindly share your starter too PLease? Just a small chunk?
I am getting excited about firing up the earthstone after a fun winter playing with and learning alot about the home oven pizzas, and differnt styles. Now- I need to get this starter thing worked out so I can have pies that resemble your masterpieces Bill. Where should I start as far as getting going with use of such starter? Sourdo.com? Is there a particular thread that you think may help me along this path?
I am looking to take the WFO to the next level.
Thankyou Bill
JOhn

[Matthew]

For 6 pies (240g of dough per 10"-12"pie)

870g Caputo "00" Pizzeria Flour
527g water
91g Ischia, activated
26g salt

1-2 day room temp bulk fermentation
shape
5 hour proof
Top, bake @ 900F-975F (deck temp) for 45-60 seconds

Thanks alot Bill, I really appreciate it.  I have been plugging in the the percentages of the weights that you provided in the preferment dough calculator & am having a tough time coming up with your amounts.  My recollection is that your starter is 48% water, I am trying to adjust your formula to my percentage of water; which is 50.
According to my calculations the overall hydration of your dough is 65.6% (91 X.48+527)/870 & the amount of starter that you use is 6.3% of the total dough weight.  Is this correct?

Matt

[Bill/SFNM]

Thanks alot Bill, I really appreciate it.  I have been plugging in the the percentages of the weights that you provided in the preferment dough calculator & am having a tough time coming up with your amounts.  My recollection is that your starter is 48% water, I am trying to adjust your formula to my percentage of water; which is 50.
According to my calculations the overall hydration of your dough is 65.6% (91 X.48+527)/870 & the amount of starter that you use is 6.3% of the total dough weight.  Is this correct?

Matt

My starter is 54% flour/46% water. By my calculations, that gives a final hydration of 62% based on 6% starter (of total weight). These are approximations since I make minor adjustments based on current conditions. Also, I've come to the conclusion that minor ingredient variations are less important than the techniques, times, and temps for mixing, kneading, fermenting, shaping, proofing, and baking.

[Bill/SFNM]

Where should I start as far as getting going with use of such starter? Sourdo.com? Is there a particular thread that you think may help me along this path?

I am very pleased with the cultures I got from sourdo.com. There is whole board in this forum dedicated to starters:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,37.0.html

Initial activation is the hardest part. It has been a while since I did this; there are others who have done it more recently who have provided current info on that board.

[scpizza]

870g Caputo "00" Pizzeria Flour
527g water
91g Ischia, activated
26g salt

1-2 day room temp bulk fermentation

I'll voice a note of caution to those trying replicate such natural starter recipes.  Unlike with commercial yeast, saying "91g Ischia" doesn't convey all the information needed to replicate Bill's results.  The number, type, and condition of organisms in that 91g can vary enormously depending on how the starter is managed.

Any given natural starter based recipe could produce a wildly overblown dough, a perfect pizza, or a totally unleavened lump depending on how the starter is managed.  For example, Bill's recipe would never work with the process I use to manage my starter.

Relevant factors include:
- what temperature the starter is kept at
- what hydration it is kept at
- how often it is refreshed
- what dilution factor was used to refresh it
- how long since the last refreshment was it incorporated into the dough
- has the starter reached a steady state after days of identical conditions

[Pete-zza]

I'll voice a note of caution to those trying replicate such natural starter recipes.

It is also important to note that Bill/SFNM is at a high elevation in New Mexico, a point he has made on several prior occasions so as not to mislead people into thinking that they can exactly replicate his results.

Peter

[Bill/SFNM]

Pete-zza and scpizza bring up great points - one of the reasons I groan a little when people ask me about precise ratios, times, temps, etc. There are so many variables that this process can seem more "magical" than it really is. There is no substitute for intensive experimentation/adjustments based on your own situation and taste. Your taste and skill-level will evolve creating an ever-moving target. There is no doubt in my mind that if several years ago someone had given me the exact same recipe I have listed above and also the videos I have posted, the pies I would have made then would be different than the ones I make today.

The ONLY path is to pick a starting point (I used marcos) and never stop trying to improve.

For me the most relevant of the factors listed by scpizza is how often the culture is refreshed (fed). I now use the Ischia culture at least once per week and it's behavior is much different (better) than it was when I used it only about once per month.

[Matthew]

I'll voice a note of caution to those trying replicate such natural starter recipes.  Unlike with commercial yeast, saying "91g Ischia" doesn't convey all the information needed to replicate Bill's results.  The number, type, and condition of organisms in that 91g can vary enormously depending on how the starter is managed.

Any given natural starter based recipe could produce a wildly overblown dough, a perfect pizza, or a totally unleavened lump depending on how the starter is managed.  For example, Bill's recipe would never work with the process I use to manage my starter.

Relevant factors include:
- what temperature the starter is kept at
- what hydration it is kept at
- how often it is refreshed
- what dilution factor was used to refresh it
- how long since the last refreshment was it incorporated into the dough
- has the starter reached a steady state after days of identical conditions

Your absolutely correct on all of the above.  I wasn't looking for the exact amounts, just percentages.  I too am using Marco's formulation as a starting point & am planning on adjusting the amounts until I reach a product that I am extremely satisfied with.  I knew that Bill started by using Marco's formulation & then modified it to suit his conditions & was just curious to see by how much.  I have been using starters for a few months now & am extremely confident in predicting how they react to my conditions.  I am always experimenting; for example ,with today's dough, I decreased my starter considerably from 5% of total dough weight to 5% of total water weight.  I had it fermenting at 64 deg for about 30 hours & noticed that at this temperature & this starter amount there wasn't a heck of alot of activity going on so I moved it to room temperature & 12 hour later I have a fully risen very airy dough.  The test will be tonight when I make my pies.