Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 19000 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2009, 11:10:21 PM »
Peter,
So basically now what you are explaining to me is that I will need to add sugar, because the dough will need sugar to feed on for the longer fermentation time. Is that right? 
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #101 on: June 05, 2009, 07:26:56 AM »
Norma,

I have made Lehmann NY style doughs with long life spans, including the one I referenced, without the use of added sugar, but that was with respect to single or a few dough balls in a home setting and using special methods. For your four-day test batch, I would be inclined to add 2% sugar just to be on the safe side. Otherwise, you may find that the crusts are too light (color-wise). Once the results are in, we can consider whether any other changes should or might be made. I think the key to longevity of the dough is to keep the water and dough cold.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2009, 06:37:53 PM »
Peter,
I used to All Trumps today and will see how the dough turns out tomorrow.  The weather is hot here and I used bottled water that I had put in the refrigerator for awhile.  I don’t know what happened, but 2 batches that weighed 10 lbs. each had a finished temperature of 84.  Then I made two 15 lb. batches and the finished temperature of the dough was 86.  I did all the things the same.  Do you think because they were a bigger batch the friction of the mixer had something to do with the finished temperature?  My water temperature was 72 degrees.  It is also humid here, so I don’t know if that had something to do with the dough either.
Maybe I can get a handle on my oven temperature, too because I am going to try the grill thermometer tomorrow.
I am still planning on making the test batch on Friday.  I used two different things to try and figure out my test batch.  I first used a thickness factor of .10 for 6 balls.
Next I used a 16 oz. weight of dough ball for 16" pizza, also for 6 balls.  It seems when I weigh the dough balls that is all I need to make the 16" pizza.  Which formula which you suggest for me to use, or do you have another idea?  I added the 2 percent sugar.
I also am planning on trying a dessert pizza  tomorrowTom Lehmann had posted on PMQ.  Here is the recipe.  It really sounded good to me.  I let you know what happens with that. 
Post Re: Desserts     Reply to topic Reply with quote
I don't know about you, but I find pie filling on a pizza to be overly sweet. Try this, use your regular thin crust dough skin, brush it with melted butter, sprinkle with sugar and cinnamon, then add sliced fruit such as apples (with the skin on) banana (be sure to put the slices in water with a little lemon or lime juice to keep them from turning brown), sliced strawberries, blueberries, sliced kiwi, sliced peaches, halved red and green grapes, or slices of canned Mandarin orange. Just about any fruit or berries works well. Then sprinkle on a little streusel and bake the same as your thin crust pizzas. Let the pizza set-up a minute or so after baking and apply icing (powdered sugar and water mixed to a thick paste works well) from a squeeze bottle. Can be served hot or cold, is great when sold by the slice, and for a special treat, offer it ala mode.
These can be made in advance and held in the cooler, when needed, remove a slice and give it a partial pass through the oven just to reheat it, or, like I said, it is also great (my favorite) cold. This can be a great summer time (seasonal) dessert offering. This is just one of the pizzas that we make during our pizza production class in October and at the Orlando Pizza Show in September.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thickness factor .10

Flour (100%):    2139.51 g  |  75.47 oz | 4.72 lbs.
Water (58%):    1240.91 g  |  43.77 oz | 2.74 lbs
IDY (0.30%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.13 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    37.44 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.8 tsp | 2.6 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    21.4 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.75 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    42.79 g | 1.51 oz | 0.09 lbs | 10.73 tsp | 3.58 tbsp
Total (163.05%):   3488.46 g | 123.05 oz | 7.69 lbs | TF = 0.102
Single Ball:   581.41 g | 20.51 oz | 1.28 lbs

16 oz weigh of dough for 16" pizza
Flour (100%):    1702.56 g  |  60.06 oz | 3.75 lbs
Water (58%):    987.49 g  |  34.83 oz | 2.18 lbs
IDY (0.30%):    5.11 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    29.79 g | 1.05 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.21 tsp | 2.07 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    17.03 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.78 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    34.05 g | 1.2 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.54 tsp | 2.85 tbsp
Total (163.05%):   2776.03 g | 97.92 oz | 6.12 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   462.67 g | 16.32 oz | 1.02 lbs
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2009, 07:05:56 PM »
Norma,

I think that your finished dough temperatures were on the high side because the water wasn't cold enough. You didn't specify the temperature of the room where you made your dough or the flour temperature, but I did a Google search for Manheim, PA where the Root's Country Market Auction is held, and it looks like the outdoor temperature today was around 85 degrees F, with humidity at 19%. Assuming that your room temperature and flour temperature were around 80 degrees F, and that your machine friction factor is around 9 degrees F (based on earlier data you provided), you perhaps needed a water temperature of around 56 degrees F to get a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F. Maybe you can confirm my numbers.

As far as the two options are concerned, the first one should approximate a NY "street" style pizza. The second one (roughly 16 ounces of dough for a 16" pizza), strikes me as being a bit too much on the thin side (a thickness factor of about 0.07957). I think I would use about 18 ounces for the second option. That would be like an "elite" NY style from the standpoint of thickness (although there are places in NYC that use thinner crusts). Having both choices for your customers might tell you whether they have preferences.

I will be away on vacation for a week, with limited Internet access, but I will be checking in from time to time to see how things work out.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2009, 07:20:22 PM »
Peter,
You are right about the temperature, but the humidity was about 45 percent today.  They are saying on the radio it is really muggy today. The temperature in the market was about 82.  I will follow a lower water temperature next week.  I will decide which recipe to use for the longer ferment and see what happens.  Maybe if one doesn't work out this week, I will use the other next week.
Hope you have a nice vacation. 
Norma
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Offline smarttowers

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2009, 09:12:18 PM »
I will be away on vacation for a week, with limited Internet access, but I will be checking in from time to time to see how things work out.

Peter


WHAT? We are gonna have to all chip in and get you a IPhone or something so you can stay connected at all times. We have very important questions to ask the master.

Just kidding, have a good Vacation Peter I'm sure you deserve it.

P.S. On a side note I'm thinking of starting a thread to have people post pics of who they think Peter is since he won't tell us his real identity. I think he's batman ;D

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2009, 09:10:09 AM »
P.S. On a side note I'm thinking of starting a thread to have people post pics of who they think Peter is since he won't tell us his real identity. I think he's batman ;D

Nah... he's Ironman.
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2009, 04:35:56 PM »
Peter,
I wanted to let you know the All Trumps flour worked well for me.  My modem went down Monday night and I wasn't able to connect to the internet until now.  I did mix the trial batch for four day fermentation today.  I will post pictures of the pizza that was made from the All Trumps soon.
Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2009, 11:45:11 PM »
Pictures of All Trumps flour pizza on Tuesday.  I also had some leftover dough from Tuesday and kept it in the deli case. It had risen considerably, then I punched it down and will check it again on Monday.  I want to see what happens to that, also. 
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2009, 11:46:11 PM »
Picture of Tom Lehmann's dessert pizza
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2009, 11:47:16 PM »
 dessert pizza
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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2009, 11:50:16 PM »
grill thermometer on left, worked well, found out my thermosat even though it was just replace wasn't accurate. ::)
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2009, 11:51:43 PM »
herbs for pizza sauce
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2009, 11:37:04 PM »
I used the one formulation today that I had fermented for four days and it didn't seem any different than my one day fermentation in the taste of the crust.  The dough wasn't as extensible as my one day fermentation.  This is the formula I used.

16 oz weigh of dough for 16" pizza
Flour (100%):    1702.56 g  |  60.06 oz | 3.75 lbs
Water (58%):    987.49 g  |  34.83 oz | 2.18 lbs
IDY (0.30%):    5.11 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    29.79 g | 1.05 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.21 tsp | 2.07 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    17.03 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.78 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    34.05 g | 1.2 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.54 tsp | 2.85 tbsp
Total (163.05%):   2776.03 g | 97.92 oz | 6.12 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   462.67 g | 16.32 oz | 1.02 lbs
Here are some pictures of the dough before I formed the skins, then pictures of the pizza. 
I am going to try the other formula this Friday for a four day fermentation and see what the results are.
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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2009, 11:38:01 PM »
Does anyone know why the big bubbles formed in the middle?
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2009, 11:38:55 PM »
picture of finished pizza
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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2009, 11:39:52 PM »
same pizza, why did bubble form on finished pizza?
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2009, 12:37:55 AM »
Norma,

The reason for a dough to form these bubbles could be that it was a bit overrisen, which can happen quickly in a warmer environment.

But since Peter is working with you I'll leave that up to him to get you back on track.  :)
Mike

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2009, 07:56:20 AM »
Essen1,
Thank you for your advise.   :)  I appreciate your input.  I had made mixed the dough on Friday, formed into balls right away, and then kept in deli case at 40 degrees until Monday.  Dough temperature after mixing was 82 degrees. 
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #119 on: June 17, 2009, 08:53:32 AM »
Norma,

It is rare for me to see large bubbles in the dough. The last time I got a large bubble in a dough ball was back in December 2005 when I made member Canadave's NY style dough. The bubble in that case can be seen in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. As noted in that post, I attributed the bubble to too much yeast. I have gotten smaller bubbles, but those were fermentation related, with an example shown at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. That was for a 12+ day old dough. Neither of those examples seems to explain your case. Did you note the water, flour and room temperatures that applied to your dough?

There can be many causes of bubbling in the finished crust. To see Tom Lehmann's list, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551. It is possible in your case that the longer than normal fermentation time may necessitate using a dough docker. I have never found using a dough docker necessary with the Lehmann dough but my application was in the context of a home setting involving only one or a few dough balls and a standard home refrigerator, not a commercial quantity in a commercial cooler as in your case.

Peter