Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation (Read 18994 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #120 on:** June 17, 2009, 05:05:25 PM »

Peter,
I know I was surprised to see the big bubbles, too and didn't know what I did wrong.
I read your replies you directed me to. My water temperature was 64 degrees, my flour temperature was 72 degrees and the temperature where I was making dough was 72 degrees. My finished dough temperature was 78 degrees. Since my hydration I used was only 58%, which I normally use, did that have anything to do with the fermentation? How can you use a higher higher hydration and still have the dough not ferment too much?

My finished dough temperature was 2 degrees below normal. I read Tom's replies and since I have a grill thermometer now, I am keeping the temperature between 500-525 degrees. Maybe I should lower it to 475 to try and not get the bubbles in the finished pizza. I waited 1 hour to have dough out of deli case to start forming skins.
I don't know how mixing in a commercial environment could change all that much how the dough turns out. I can see with too much humidity and heat it can change my final dough, but the temperature and humidity weren't a great factor last Friday.
Since all of this is new to me, I will try the other formula this Friday and see what happens. Do you have any suggestions about changing my procedures for making that trial batch?
Thickness factor .10

Flour (100%):    2139.51 g | 75.47 oz | 4.72 lbs.
Water (58%):    1240.91 g | 43.77 oz | 2.74 lbs
IDY (0.30%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.13 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    37.44 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.8 tsp | 2.6 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    21.4 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.75 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    42.79 g | 1.51 oz | 0.09 lbs | 10.73 tsp | 3.58 tbsp
Total (163.05%):   3488.46 g | 123.05 oz | 7.69 lbs | TF = 0.102
Single Ball:   581.41 g | 20.51 oz | 1.28 lbs
Thank you again, Peter for helping me understand all the factors that can go into dough management.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #121 on:** June 17, 2009, 07:41:13 PM »

Norma,

It is possible to use a higher hydration but you usually have to offset the increase in fermentation in some fashion, as by using colder water. However, I don't think that hydration is the problem in your case. I would also be surprised if your oven temperature (500-525 degrees F) is causing the bubbles in the finished crust. I think the issue is a dough management issue.

Since your dough balls are almost 21 ounces, have you been cross stacking the dough trays for about 2 1/2 hours as Tom Lehmann suggested recently at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50126&sid=521723f78fbcc232ea4ad5bcb0b17537#50126 ? You might also want to consider going lower on the water temperature. I made a dough today and used water at around 50 degrees F to compensate for the very hot weather around Dallas recently (today it was around 100 degrees F).

Peter

ThunderStik · « **Reply #122 on:** June 17, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »

Norma, you could also try adding the yeast later in the process. I have found that it will give you a bit of extra time.

norma427 · « **Reply #123 on:** June 17, 2009, 11:36:17 PM »

Peter,
That was really hot down there today. I hate to think about hot weather here, but it will be coming, although it doesn't usually get that hot here. What kind of dough were you making? I will lower the temperature of the water on Friday to see how that works. As I told you before my dough balls are only about 17 oz. I think when I bought the screens they only had 15" screens and the pans are for 16" pizzas. I did cross stack the balls for an hour and forty-five minutes, but will let them cross-stacked for 2 hours to see how that works. Yes, it is still confusing for me since I am still learning, but I am willing to try new ideas to see what happens. There is a lot to learn about dough management.
Thank you for your advise!

I will keep you posted on what happens.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #124 on:** June 17, 2009, 11:39:24 PM »

ThunderStik,
Thank you for helping me. When do you mean to add the yeast? I am now putting the water in the bowl, then putting in the flour, adding the salt, sugar, and yeast and then mixing. When the hook picks up all the dough then I add the olive oil. Could you please explain?
Norma

ThunderStik · « **Reply #125 on:** June 18, 2009, 09:57:25 AM »

Im my last 3 batches I have added the all the ingredients and kneaded the dough with the exception of the yeast. Later in the process, say the last 5-10 min of the kneading I add the yeast (im using flieshmans bread machine yeast, which is an IDY).

I have found that this gives me an extra 1.5-2 days of ferment time. The downside is the dough is not usable for the first 1.5-2 days. In doing this your basically just delaying the point in which the ferm process gets really active.

I started experimenting with this just to see what the effects were. Recently Pete and I had a little discussion about it and Pete had done similar experiments with similar outcomes. More can be read about it in this thread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.msg75651.html#msg75651

But as pete is suggested you can also control the process with water temp. For me lately I have just been using room temp water but controlling the process by when I add the yeast and how much yeast I add.

Of course im only makeing 4 balls at a time and they are only 14in pies. If your making 16 or 18in balls this will require more experimenting on your part as a larger ball will not cool as quick and may indeed require a lower water temp.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #126 on:** June 18, 2009, 10:02:58 AM »

Norma,

Thanks for clarifying the dough ball weight you are using. I was looking at the dough formulation you posted in Reply 121. At some point, you might want to use the thickness factor approach with the dough calculating tool to revise the dough formulation so that it is based on the desired number of 17-ounce dough balls you would like to make. As a further point of claification, are you making 15" pizzas or 16" pizzas with the 17-ounce dough balls?

I think I would try using 2 1/2 hours of cross stacking. From my reading over the years about commercial pizza dough production and management, one of the biggest problem areas in terms of dough "blowing" is incorrect or insufficient cross stacking. Just be sure to wipe the dough balls with oil.

The dough I made recently in the hot weather here in Texas was similar to a Lehmann dough but with a lot of oil. I was hand kneading the dough so I had to use cold water (around 50 degrees F) to keep the dough from warming up too fast because of the high room temperature. The math equations I mentioned to you earlier don't apply to hand kneading of dough. Also, cold water warms up pretty fast as soon as you bring it out to room temperature and let it sit there as you start to make the dough.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #127 on:** June 18, 2009, 12:17:27 PM »

ThunderStik,
I had read that thread before about you mixing dough for 50 minutes and basically over kneading to see what the results would be. That was a very interesting experiment!

Your finished pizzas look great! Did you ever get to try hydration of higher than 55%?
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #128 on:** June 18, 2009, 12:23:10 PM »

Peter,
I will recalculate that formula for the other dough I made last week and change it to 17 ounces. I might try that again next week if this weeks trial batch doesn't get the results I would like to see.
I will cross-stack for 2 1/2 hours tomorrow. I have to measure the screens tomorrow, but think they are 15".
What is the difference in the finished Lehmann pizza with higher amount of oil?

Thank for for all your help.
Norma

ThunderStik · « **Reply #129 on:** June 18, 2009, 01:36:39 PM »

Norma,
I have not had the chance to do the next batch yet but will very soon. The kneading was the experiment, not the yeast. It is pretty well confirmed that it works.

As I have not read this whole thread (yet) but I would say whatever Pete has to say far outweighs anything I have to say about the subject.

If your trying to get get your balls to ferment without bubbling up though, judging from the picture the colder water (possibly ice) and late yeast addition should get you where you want to be.

I dont know why I didnt even think about it but if thats the way your storing your dough then it will take a longer time for them to cool down and slow the ferm process.

Remember it doesnt take long for those yeast to become active in their preferred environment (warm/moist). So the faster you can get them cool the quicker your going to slow down the process. While I have zero experience in a commercial situation or anything of the like I would say a possibility would be to cool the balls seperately then put them in your boxes or something to that effect. I am not familiar with cross stacking or any of that type of thing or your environment for that matter. But I do know air is a poor conductor and acts as an insulator in those boxes.

Also I would think when you have that many balls put that close together that are warm already I would think they could act as a solid mass because of the lack of air circulation around them. Now you enclose the room temp air in the box full of warm dough and your probably looking at a good bit of time before the dough can cool down and try to slow the train that has already begun rolling down the tracks.

Im sure the "cross stacking" Pete is talking about is referring to this issue. It does seem like it would be a real issue though as you start to stack these warm boxes up and around each other. Of course this is only made worse by the fact the ferm process produces heat anyway.

Wow im rambling now.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #130 on:** June 18, 2009, 02:26:37 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 18, 2009, 12:23:10 PM

What is the difference in the finished Lehmann pizza with higher amount of oil?

Norma,

As you know, the Lehmann dough formulation you have been using calls for 1% oil. That is not a lot of oil but I have discovered that when I omit it I can tell. The prime benefit of oil at low levels is the flavor it contributes to the finished crust, especially if it is olive oil. Tom Lehmann discussed the role of oil in his NY style dough recipe in an exchange I had with him on the subject, as I noted at Reply 700 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg61557.html#msg61557.

Once you increase the amount of oil, and especially once you get above about 4%, the oil has other functions besides flavor. It helps lubricate the gluten strands and make the dough easier to knead. It will also increase the "wetness" of the dough, sometimes to the point where it becomes advisable to lower the hydration of the dough to offset some of the "wetness" added by the oil. I learned a lot about the relationship between oil and hydration when I made all of the Papa John's clone doughs with around 7% oil. I found that I had to use around 56-57% hydration with the oil at 7% to get the best results.

The oil also promotes increased volume of the dough and the height of the finished crust, as Tom recently noted at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50068#p50068. Oil at high levels will also result in a more tender crust. This is because the oil prevents some of the moisture in the dough from evaporating during baking. High sugar levels will also contribute to a more tender crust. That is because sugar is hygroscopic and attracts water. It will continue to attract moisture even after the pizza has been baked and cools down. The combination of oil and sugar will also retard staling of the crust. This is usually not a big issue with pizzas which are eaten fairly promptly but it could be an issue with bread that you would like to hold for a few days. Finally, oil contributes to mouthfeel.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #131 on:** June 18, 2009, 02:39:35 PM »

ThunderStik,
Yes, I saw your experiment worked. I enjoyed seeing how you did that.
I also have 0 experience in a commercial operation. That is why I ask so many questions. The dough with the bubbles is a trial dough, not the dough I usually use. I couldn't fit commercial pans in my deli case or pizza prep refrigerator because I have a small (8'x13") pizza stand at a one day farmer's market. That is why I am using the other pans. I might need to have another method for storing the dough. Time will tell.
I do cross-stacking (which means I stack my pans crosswise to let the air in the deli case cool them down faster, then after so long put them on top of one another, then put a lid on them.
Thank you for your suggestions and no you weren't rambling on.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #132 on:** June 18, 2009, 03:27:26 PM »

Peter,
Wow...that was a lot of information going from thread to thread. Thank you for explaining what the extra oil does. I really liked following the threads to the on about Tom Lehmann not know how to make artisan like pizza until SliceofSlomon got together with him. It was all about making a commercial pizza with different ingredients not really needed to make pizza, until that day...
I also read about the sea salt and how SliceofSlomon thinks it's the best for his pizza. Interesting

Will keep you posted
Thanks, Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #133 on:** June 18, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »

Norma,

I believe the SLICEofSLOMON (Evelyne Slomon) post you are referring to is Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054.html#msg41054. That is an interesting post.

There are some pizza operators who use sea salt but they tend to be the artisanal pizza operators. Most just use common table salt. Even Kosher salt is uncommon among professional pizza operators.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #134 on:** June 18, 2009, 07:33:38 PM »

Peter,
Yes, that is the interesting post and reply. Thanks for adding it for me. I think many newbies would be interested in reading that post and reply.
I was also surprised you just told me most pizza operators only use common salt. I have found that Kosher salt, even in my everyday cooking adds to the taste of food.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #135 on:** June 18, 2009, 07:36:15 PM »

Norma,

Are you using Kosher salt for your pizza dough and, if so, what brand is it?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #136 on:** June 18, 2009, 08:19:57 PM »

Peter,
Yes, I am using Kosher salt. It is Morton's.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #137 on:** June 18, 2009, 08:45:42 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 18, 2009, 08:19:57 PM

Yes, I am using Kosher salt. It is Morton's.

Norma,

When you came up with the dough formulation to make your dough did you use the Morton's Kosher salt entry in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html ?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #138 on:** June 18, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »

Peter,
Yes, I did use that for my trial dough formulations, but not the Tom Lehmann recipe you directed me to that I have been using since I started. Should I go back and change that recipe to use Morton's salt? I don't know if you remember or not, but I couldn't use that calculator then because my computer had viruses and I had to have a new install of Windows XP to have my computer work. Now I can use the calculator.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #139 on:** June 18, 2009, 09:20:21 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 18, 2009, 08:55:28 PM

Should I go back and change that recipe to use Morton's salt?

Norma,

I think that would be a good idea. If you used the weight measurements for salt, you would have been OK. But if you used the volume measurements, you would have been off because the different salts have different weights per teaspoon.

Peter