Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation (Read 19013 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2009, 02:17:36 PM »

Peter,
I will print out all your instructions for dough/management and the other advise you gave me. Also will print out the poppy seed trick. I did get poppy seeds today. I also got a small digital scales, so hopefully I will be able to follow all your instructions on Monday. I will let you know how the dough turns out. Thank you for being patient with me. Here is a picture of what the dough balls looked like this past week, before I refrigerated them.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 20, 2009, 11:08:07 PM »

Peter,
Here is how my dough looked today with your help.

I will see tomorrow how good the pizza gets. I didn't get to try the poppy seed trick, because until I tried the new scale, the markets alarm system was about ready to get set. I will let you know how the pizza was. The dough seemed so much smoother. Thanks again, for all your help!
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 20, 2009, 11:11:30 PM »

Peter,
This is how the skins looked. Much better.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 22, 2009, 06:02:22 PM »

Peter,
The dough was much better yesterday and I didn't need to use a screen. I could put it on the peel to dress it. That was a big improvement for me. I was still having problems with opening the dough. A man came and bought a slice of my pizza and we talked for awhile and he said he made pizza in Florida for years. He said his father-in-law used to make him make the dough so thin for him it took him a long while to master it. I asked him about my problems and he watched me and looked at my dough and he said the dough wasn't proofed enough, that I should let the dough sit out for about 3 or 4 hours to let it proof before I put it in the fridge. He showed me by pushing on the dough how it should stay mostly down from the finger imprint. He said then I could tell it was ready to be used. I still can't understand what happened because I made my dough all the same way and kept all out the same time and some of the dough was good for opening and I guess some needed more proofing. At least the man really complemented me on the great taste of the dough. That is also a compliment to you. Thanks for the formulation. I told him about pizzamaking.com and how you are helping me. He said the sauce tasted great. He said he would be back again and see how I was making out. Do you had the same idea about proofing as this man did? Since this is only my 3rd week making pizza I am learning more each week.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #24 on:** April 22, 2009, 08:54:09 PM »

Norma,

There are several ways to make a dough fit a particular window of usability. One way to do it is to use the Lehmann dough preparation/management method as described at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/, which I referenced earlier in this thread. For this method to work well on a uniform and consistent basis, you have to have the proper hydration and the proper amount of yeast. Also, you should use the proper water temperature to get the desired finished dough temperature, and go through the cross-stacking, down-stacking, etc. I don't recall when you started the last dough batch using the formulation I suggested but the dough should have been in pretty good shape to use after about 2 days, and certainly three days. It may well be that your particular operating conditions dictate a need to adjust one or both of the hydration and amount of yeast to use (see more on this below).

The second method is to use a warm-up period such as the former pizza maker suggested and then go to the cooler with the dough balls. That warm-up period, which kickstarts the fermentation process, can be anywhere from a half hour to a couple hours depending on the ambient temperature. With this method, the amount of yeast to use becomes critical because the warm-up period shortens the window of usability of the dough. With the dough formulation you have been using, this means that you will perhaps want to reduce the amount of yeast to compensate. Pizza operators generally learn from experience how to make the necessary adjustments to fit their window of usability. Usually, that window of usability becomes a fixed period.

In your case, if you want to stick with the Lehmann dough preparation/management method, you might try increasing the yeast, say, to about 0.375%, and increase the hydration, say, to about 60%, and see how that combination works. If you want to try the method suggested by the former pizza maker, you can stick with your current dough formulation and use a warm-up period of about an hour or two before going to the cooler with the dough balls.

I'm sure that in due time you will master the process.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

norma427 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 22, 2009, 11:23:15 PM »

Peter,
Thanks you for helping me understand the two methods. I will let you know next week what happens. I can't let the dough ferment in the deli case more than one day because the farmer's market is closed Saturday's and Sunday's. I will decide by next week what to do.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #26 on:** April 23, 2009, 11:43:06 AM »

Norma,

If you have been making one-day Lehmann NY style doughs, I can see how they might not be as extensible as doughs with materially longer fermentations.

As I see it, at this point you have the following options: 1) use your current dough formulation but start the dough sooner (if you start three or more days in advance of use, it may be necessary to reduce the amount of yeast); 2) use the current dough formulation but increase the amount of yeast and the hydration, as previously suggested; 3) use the current dough formulation but use a warm-up period before putting the dough balls into the cooler, along the lines suggested by your customer who was a former pizza maker. The results of these three options won't be identical, so some experimentation will be required to determine which one is best for your particular operation. As I mentioned earlier, you ideally want to have only one dough making/management system or protocol that you use over and over again as much as possible.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 23, 2009, 01:01:19 PM »

Peter,
OK, I will use my current formulation and see what happens this coming week by letting it sit out. If that doesn't work, I will use your other two methods. I will experiment with your ideas until I get a formulation that I can use over and over. Customers really like the taste of the crust, so if I can learn to proof it right, then I won't have the problems with the opening of the skin. I will read more posts on this forum and learn more. There are so many ideas here and so many great looking pizzas. I will I could taste each one!

Norma

Flagpull · « **Reply #28 on:** April 23, 2009, 06:22:58 PM »

Norma,

We'd all love to see some more pictures of the rest of your shop, oven, counter, everything!

Philip

norma427 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2009, 06:04:12 AM »

Philip,
I am at our local farmer's market one day a week. I don't have a lot of pictures right now. Since I am a newbie, I don't know how to post multiple pictures or if I am allowed. Thanks for asking.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 25, 2009, 09:20:25 PM »

Peter,
I was talking to my favorite pizza man around here yesterday. He asked me how I am doing with my place. I told him about my problems with my dough. I told him what formulation you had given me. He told me you don't use olive oil to make the dough, but to use vegetable oil. How does that sound to you? He is Italian and own his own pizzeria. His pizza is great NY style. He has been making pizza for many years. He also told me he puts the IDY directly in with the water and salt. He made me feel a little better about my dough saying he also has problems with his dough from time to time. He asked to see what formulation you gave me and I told him I would copy it and take it to him. I will let you know what he says. We talked awhile and he gave me more advise and said some day when he isn't so busy he will come over to my stand.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #31 on:** April 25, 2009, 10:54:04 PM »

Norma,

Since the Lehmann NY style dough formulation calls for olive oil, I did not suggest changing that. However, most pizza operators use vegetable oil simply because it is cheaper than olive oil. I once advised a pizza operator who was using extra virgin olive oil to switch to vegetable oil but he told me that he used only the best ingredients to make his pizzas and he liked the olive oil and did not want to change to a cheaper product. I suggested that he consider a pomace olive oil, which is a cheaper grade of olive oil. He made the change and said that he couldn't tell the difference. So, he made the switch. Often, pizza operators who like olive oil will use a blend of olive oil and canola oil as a lower cost compromise solution. A typical blend is 20% olive oil (it can be a pomace olive oil) and 80% canola oil. Tom Lehmann is frequently asked about the types of oil to use in pizza doughs. A typical reply on that matter appears in the middle of the following PMQ Think Tank post: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13122#13122.

With respect to the use of the IDY, it can be added to the water if desired but it is not necessary to do so. IDY contains far fewer dead yeast cells than ADY and has a different geometry that allows it to be added directly to the flour and other dry ingredients. Also, Tom Lehmann does not believe in adding any yeast to water that also contains salt because of the osmotic pressure that salt exerts on the yeast. However, in your case, if you dissolve the salt in the water before adding the IDY and you promptly add the flour and other dry ingredients, you should be OK. That is the method used by Neapolitan pizza makers. For Tom's position on the matter of mixing yeast, salt and water (and also sugar), see his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=3304#3304.

When you see your favorite pizza man, you might want to toss the words "osmotic pressure" around to show him that you are an erudite pizza maker who had done her homework

. You might also give him copies of Tom's PMQTT posts. Maybe you can even ask him for a copy of his dough recipe for us to examine

.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 26, 2009, 07:38:29 AM »

Peter,
Thank you for the advice. I am going to stick with my olive oil. I use Filippo Berrio extra light olive oil. I have used that for years in my home cooking and I also had a stand at the farmer's market that I made all kind of fresh salsas and used that olive oil in my fresh salsas. I love the taste. Since I live in a very conservative area, many people here aren't into salsas, even though it is the number one condiment in the US now. I even had authentic tortilla chips shipped in from Arizona that were great. I have had a funnel cake, fresh dipped ice cream and Mexican Food Stand outside the market, too. I sold that because it was only in the summer months. After I tried the salsa stand and even had some dedicated salsa fans, it didn't pay to keep it. That took all fresh ingredients, too. For about 26 years my husband and I had a caramel corn stand where we made fresh caramel popcorn all kinds of ways, (stir the old fashioned way in a copper kettle) kettle corn, sugar-free caramel corn, brittles, fudge, cotton candy, snow cones and old-fashioned clear toy candy. That stand was in my husbands family since 1928. An Amish man bought the stands from me. That was a good business at market. When my husband became ill, I couldn't keep up that stand because we had two markets and stirring and lifting the kettle all day was too much for me. I hated to leave that business, but I couldn't do it without my husband. That is why I have changed to pizza. There is no fresh pizza dough stand at the market and the manager wanted a fresh dough pizza stand. I thought I have done many things in my life and researched them and then they were successful. We have always used the best ingredients and now thinking about it, why wouldn't I use the best in the pizza, too. Everyone so far has said they love the taste of the dough and the sauce. I have started a fresh herb garden so all my basil, parsley and other herbs will be fresh. Now all I have to do is practice and since I really like the recipe you gave me, just listen to you and make the adjustments I need to make. I will copy and print out the posts on PMQ think tank you have directed me to. I will give them to my local pizza man and see what he says about osmotic pressure.

I sure am learning a lot with your help!

I am going to take your advise and not add the IDY to the water and salt. There are enough other things that can go wrong, so I want to keep my variables to a minimum. Thanks again for all your help. I have always loved pizza, but never knew what can go into making a great pizza. I will continue to try my best to produce a great pizza. This week is going to be very warm here, so do I need to adjust my yeast accordingly? I will be making the dough tomorrow morning.

Since there is no air conditioning at the market, it will be hot.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 26, 2009, 08:59:43 AM »

Peter,
I have been toying with the idea of making Mexican pizza. I did make that at my funnel cake, and Mexican food stand. I had used pita's and make my own sauce, that I added taco mix to, then mozzarella and then fresh salsa. If people wanted jalapenos, peppers or onions I would add them. Many people enjoyed them. Do you think with my fresh dough pizza, this could be a added addition or do you think I should just stick with fresh dough? This was easy to make and I had a flat plated panni grill I used, but could use the pizza oven now. If you know anyone that wants this recipe, I would be happy to share it with them. This forum has helped me so much, if I can help anyone else, I would be happy to share.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2009, 10:46:46 AM »

Norma,

I was just kidding about the osmotic pressure and making copies of Tom's posts to show to your pizza friend. I am sure that he can help you a lot with the day-to-day challenges that you are likely to encounter as you try to perfect your product in your particular setting. Having read Tom Lehmann's stuff for years, I have come to the conclusion that his advice to pizza operators is intentionally conservative. I believe his advice is calculated in good measure to keep them out of trouble as much as possible. There are many ways of making pizza dough but there are some methods that are higher risk than others and more likely to lead to problems or failure. If Tom encouraged those other methods, I believe he would find himself having to spend much more time--time he doesn't really have--correcting their problems. It would be one thing if he were being paid to diagnose and fix problems, but most of the people who seek him out are looking for free advice.

On the matter of adjusting the amount of yeast because of the warmer weather, if your deli case or cooler is able to maintain a fairly constant temperature, you will perhaps be OK for a one day dough. Before reducing the amount of yeast, you might try using a cooler water since the finished dough temperature is likely to be higher because of the warmer room/flour temperature. If you decide to let the dough warm up before going to the cooler, you can also cut back on the warm-up time. You will perhaps also discover that your dough balls will warm up faster in the non-airconditioned area where you will be making the pizzas.

I am not the best one to ask about marketing issues and what your customers might like in the way of specialty pizzas/pitas. Maybe that is something you can consider once you have mastered the dough making/management procedures and have had a chance to get feedback from your customers on which products they might like.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:00:34 PM »

Peter,
Thanks, and I will let you know how it goes this week. I know I have so much to learn and am lucky to have you, other people on this forum and my pizza man to help me.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 01, 2009, 03:09:00 AM »

Peter,
My recent trial dough from Monday was a surprise, Tuesday. When I arrived at market the dough had pushed the lids off and the dough was squeezing out the sides.

I reworked the dough into balls and let it rest for a few hours. I will have to make more adjustments for this week. I am going to lessen the amount of yeast, give the dough after the mixer an hour rest, and then put it in the deli case. Do you have any ideas?
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #37 on:** May 01, 2009, 08:48:32 AM »

Norma,

Can you tell me how you made and managed the latest dough batch?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 01, 2009, 09:35:16 PM »

Peter,
I managed this dough by using the Lehman recipe you gave me for 10 lb. batches. I used 100 degree water, olive oil and weighed the ingredients on a digital scale. I first mixed the salt and water, then added the flour and yeast that were mixed together, then added the olive oil. I made 5 batches of dough. When I had finished the first batch the temperature of the dough was 86 degrees (which was too hot) I then used cooler water and still my batches weren't coming out at around 80 degrees. Probably because of the warmer weather. I let the dough rest for an hour and then formed the balls. I made sure I closed the balls on the bottom and then coated them with a little olive oil. Would it be a good idea to put less yeast in the batches?

The ball sizes had increased by about 4 times. Thanks for your help.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #39 on:** May 01, 2009, 09:50:26 PM »

Norma,

Can you tell me what the temperature of the room is where you make your dough, the water temperature you used for the last batch of dough, and the temperature of the cooler or deli case where you store the dough balls?

Peter