Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 22458 times)

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Offline norma427

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Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« on: April 08, 2009, 07:46:28 PM »
Thank you Pete for all your valuable contributions to the messages posted here.  I have been learning from you and others on this forum how to make a great pizza.  I still have a long way to go, but would like to know if you could give me a formula with the ingredients I am using for a New York Style pizza.  I wondered if you can give me in lbs for flour, teaspoons or tablespoons for salt, yeast and ounces for water or lbs for water.  I am using Pillsbury Balancer Flour in 50 lb. bags.  The yeast I have is instant dry yeast.  I am using triple filtered water.  Also do I add olive oil to the mixture.  I tried my first dough on Monday used it Tuesday after fermentation for one day, and although it got sticky, I used some bench flour and it was okay.  I would really like to learn to make a good dough to practice with.  I want to use a sourdough mixture after I learn to make pizza with regular yeast.  Thanks again for all your advise on your posts.  :)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 09:09:55 PM »
Norma,

You might want to try out Tom Lehmann's commercial NY style dough formulation at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/. I hope you have a mixer that can make around 80 pounds of dough at one time since that is roughly what you will get using a 50-lb. bag of flour. The instructions for making and managing the dough should be those that accompany Tom's dough formulation. In that regard, you will note a reference to sugar in the instructions. That is an error, although I believe Tom meant to include it if one plans to make a dough that is to be used after about two days.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a version of Tom's dough formulation that you might want to consider, based on 50 pounds of flour as you requested:

Pillsbury Balancer High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
13154.4 g  |  464 oz | 29 lbs
68.04 g | 2.4 oz | 0.15 lbs | 7.53 tbsp | 0.47 cups
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs | 16.8 tbsp | 1.05 cups
36526.14 g | 1288.4 oz | 80.53 lbs | TF = N/A

I selected a hydration of 58% since that is a value that is typically used by professional pizza operators, even when using a high-gluten flour. You should be able to use the dough after one or two days of cold fermentation. Beyond that, you would want to reduce the amount of yeast and possibly add some sugar to the dough. If you would like to make a small batch of dough to experiment with before going whole hog with 50 pounds of flour, let me know what batch size you would like and I can give you the numbers for that batch size. With a little playing around with the expanded dough calculating tool, you might even discover that you can make the changes yourself.

You didn't indicate what size pizzas you plan to make, but here are some typical dough ball weights for different pizza sizes:

10": 6.90 oz.
12": 10 oz.
14": 13.5 oz.
16": 17.70 oz.
18": 22.40 oz.

The above numbers are based on a thickness factor of 0.088 (the latest value that I got from Tom). For the sake of simplicity, you can round out the numbers if you'd like. It is also easy enough to adjust the dough ball weights to make a thicker crust if you think that will work better for you. The expanded dough calculating tool also works with thickness factors. Whether you use the "weight" option or the "thickness factor" option of the tool, the baker's percents remain the same.

Maybe you mentioned it before, but what kind of oven and what kind of bake temperatures/times will you be using?

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 08:14:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 10:26:32 PM »
Sorry Peter, I forgot to mention a lot of things. Since I am just starting out with my business, I am not using 50 lbs. of flour at a time.  I only meant I have 50 lb. bags of flour.  I only have a used 20 quart hobart mixer.  I am making only 16" pizzas because I am mostly selling slices and if someone wants a whole pizza, for now am only making 16" pizzas.  I have a Baker's Pride used double deck countertop oven GP-61.  It needed a lot of fixing, but now is working great and I have the temperature about 500 degrees.  It can get higher and I really don't know the correct temperature to keep it at, but I am willing to learn.  The repairman that repair my oven 3 times before it would work right set the gas pressure at 10.3.  It is run on propane gas.  I have a merchandiser that is digital and has humidity.  That works great.  I have a Pelican head cheese slicer and that is in working order, too.  I am trying to take in all you have told me and I have tried to look at Tom Lehmans's dough calculator, but my computer said I needed to download flash player which I did, but still can't look at the calculator.  I plan on making my dough on Mondays and refrigerating it until the next day when market is open.  Thank you for telling me what dough in oz. I will need to make a 16" pizza.  I can then weigh the skins once the dough is mixed.  That is a big help to me.  Since I am using instant dry yeast, is that the same as you refer to as ADY?  I wish I could use the dough calculating tool.  Do you have any ideas of why my computer won't let me use it since I downloaded flash?  Sorry to ask you that question, when you are giving me so many answers.  Thank you for your time.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 11:31:22 PM »
Norma,

I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea why the Flash isn't working on your computer. Perhaps one of our more savvy members can help you with that problem. In the meantime, I can help you with the numbers.

Do you know how much dough can be made in your Hobart 20-qt. mixer? The amount will generally be related to the absorption rate of the flour used, which is related to the hydration of the flour. As you will see from the Hobart chart at http://www.hobartcorp.com/assets/specsheets/F-7701.pdf, a 20-qt. mixer such as the HL200 can handle between 10 and 20 pounds of dough depending on the absorption rate. If we take 15 pounds as being a workable number for you, the dough formulation I gave you earlier becomes:

Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
4224.77 g  |  149.02 oz | 9.31 lbs
2450.37 g  |  86.43 oz | 5.4 lbs
12.67 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.21 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
73.93 g | 2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.42 tbsp | 0.28 cups
42.25 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.39 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
6804 g | 240 oz | 15 lbs | TF = N/A

For 10 pounds, it is:

Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
2816.52 g  |  99.35 oz | 6.21 lbs
1633.58 g  |  57.62 oz | 3.6 lbs
8.45 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.81 tsp | 0.94 tbsp
49.29 g | 1.74 oz | 0.11 lbs | 8.83 tsp | 2.94 tbsp
28.17 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.26 tsp | 2.09 tbsp
4536 g | 160 oz | 10 lbs | TF = N/A

And, for 20 pounds, it is:

Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
5633.03 g  |  198.7 oz | 12.42 lbs
3267.16 g  |  115.24 oz | 7.2 lbs
16.9 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.61 tsp | 1.87 tbsp
98.58 g | 3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs | 5.89 tbsp | 0.37 cups
56.33 g | 1.99 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.17 tbsp | 0.26 cups
9072 g | 320 oz | 20 lbs | TF = N/A

If you can get a fix on what your mixer can handle in terms of either total dough weight or maximum flour quantity, I will update the numbers.

Instant dry yeast (IDY) and active dry yeast (ADY) are not the same product. Both can be used, but ADY has to be rehydrated in a small amount of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water, which ideally should be on the cool side (otherwise the finished dough temperature is likely to be too high). IDY can be added directly to the flour. It does not require rehydrating in water.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2009, 12:17:12 AM »
Norma,

You might want to try updating your current Flash application, by visiting Adobe's website.

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/

If that doesn't work, make sure your browser, such as Firefox or IE, are not blocking out the Flash application. Firefox, however, will give you the opportunity to view a Flash page by "asking" you first before it runs the Flash application.

To find out, click on Tools; ...Add-ons;...and check the list to see what's enabled and disabled. That should give you a pretty good idea.

Hope that helps...
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2009, 12:20:37 AM »
Thanks so much Peter, I am understanding more from each post I read from you.  I appreciate the time you are taking explaining all this to me.  By looking at the chart for Hobart Mixers (I didn't even know they had the chart, more news to me)  I see that it says if using high gluten flour to reduce batch size by 10%.  Also it says capacities based on 12% flour mixture and 70 degrees water temperature.  I see it also gives sizes of batches for thin dough, medium dough and thick pizza.  If I am reading and understanding it right, it means to me that I shouldn't be making more then 10lbs. of dough at a time.  For thin pizza (is that what I am looking for in a New York Style Pizza) it says the absorption rate is 40%.  So now what does that absorption rate mean to me?  Sorry to ask all these questions, but I am trying to understand.  I think after reading your other posts and other peoples posts I really need to get a digital scales.  All I have now are 2 Taylor's scales.  I think it would easier if I can measure accurate.  Thank you for telling me about the yeasts and how they are to be used.  I mistakenly added water to my yeast and maybe that is why my dough came out sticky.  I can't wait to try the new dough this coming Monday.  This is really helping me learn about the proper way to make dough.  Your time is appreciated.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2009, 12:29:50 AM »
Hi Mike,
Thank you very much for the information and helping me try to get the flash version.  I did try for a couple of weeks and did download the current flash two times.  It still didn't work.  I just went to my system tools and system information and can't find where to see what is enabled and what isn't.  I have Foxfire.  Do you have any ideas of what I am doing wrong?  All of you members are great in helping us.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 10:13:03 AM »
Norma,

You are correct that there are a lot of variables that affect mixer performance, including the type of flour, flour moisture, water temperature and absorption rate. The absorption rate is a laboratory measurement that is close to the hydration value of a particular flour. For a high-gluten flour, it would be around 62%. I would pay more attention to the rated absorption value than to the description of crust thicknesses. I also wouldn't worry about the flour moisture, which starts off at around 14% but rarely declines to 12% under normal conditions. You also shouldn't have to worry about the water temperature under normal operating conditions. You would if you decided to use water at a temperature considerably below 70 degrees F, which would cause the mixer to labor more to do the mixing and kneading.

In your case, I think I would experiment with making 15 pounds of dough to see if that is a workable number. Depending on your results, you might then go up or down from there. Your mixer may also be somewhat different than the 20-qt. mixer referenced in the Hobart pdf document so the capacity of your mixer may not be quite the same as the one in the Hobart document. If you have the manual for your mixer it may specify a recommended capacity or provide enough information to allow you to determine it.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 11:39:32 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for all your help.  I am understanding more all the time.  Your time is greatly appreciated.  I don't have the original manual from the mixer.  I could only find one for my mixer which is used and older on the hobart website. I will look at the manual and see if it gives me more information.  The manual is at my market stand, so when I go over there I will check.  I will let you know next week how my trial run goes with this formulation.  I am excited to try it.  I think I am finally on my way to finding a good formula, thanks to you!
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 11:53:11 AM »
Norma,

It's kind of tough to diagnose your computer problem from afar, without actually having the machine in front of me. But from what you described, it sounds like that either the Flash application isn't installed correctly or that some other software is preventing it from opening.

Like I said before, I'd check the Firefox and IE tools section and perhaps download the latest version of the two. For example, there have been reports of Flash problems, mainly unstable playback and flickering, when Firefox is trying to play certain YouTube videos. I have not heard of YouTube or Firefox offering a solution or a software patch to correct this.

However, if the problem persists, you might want to ask a friend or family member who's computer-savvy to take a closer look at your configurations.

Good luck.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 06:30:09 PM »
Hi Mike,
Thank you again for your help.  I know it hasn't worked in over 2 months.  My granddaughter wanted to look at utube and you can't get any pictures.  I tried unistalling a reinstalling with no luck.   ??? I also went to microsoft to see if they had a download for the problems and I did download the newer version of Media Player.  You can't even play CD's on the computer.  After I installed that it and asked it to run, it said installer encountered an unexpected error.  error code 2352.  Even after I type and save a Word Document it says there is a problem, but it lets me save the documents.  My brother is coming in May and he works for Hewlett Packard.  He tries out new programs.  Maybe he will know what is wrong.  Thanks for helping me. :D
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 12:02:31 AM »
Hi Peter,
I used the formulation you gave me.  The pizza tasted really great.  I am still having problems with the dough rising.  I mixed the formulation and let it sit out for about 2 hours then put it in the deli case for 24 hours.  The dough didn't rise much and was spread out some until the next day.   :(  I am having a hard time opening my dough enough for a 16" pizza.  I am still using a screen and having some problems with it stretching back.  Do you think my water temperature could be wrong?  ???  I still can't get flash, but am working on that.  I made 10 lb. batches and will try 15 lb. batches next week.  Any ideas of what I could be doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.   :)
Thanks, Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 10:00:52 AM »
Norma,

It is difficult to diagnose problems like yours from behind a keyboard, and especially so since you are also new to pizza making and experiencing the same kinds of problems that newbies experience at home. However, it is common for the Lehmann NY style dough to spread as it ferments due to relaxation of the gluten and the effects of enzymes in the dough on the gluten. Also, just because the dough spreads does not mean that it did not expand. I use the poppy seed trick for my doughs and I see that phenomenon all of the time.

It might help in your case if you describe in detail how you made the dough, from beginning to end, including the water temperature you used and the finished dough temperature when the dough came out of the bowl, I might spot something that needs correcting. The two factors that are most responsible for the degree of dough expansion and the window of usability of the dough are yeast quantity and dough temperature during fermentation. Dough temperature is a function of the flour temperature, room temperature, water temperature, frictional heat of your mixer, and the efficiency and temperature of your cooler/refrigerator. If the weather is still cool where you are and you are also using only one day of cold fermentation, it may be necessary or advisable to increase the amount of yeast. I assume you have not been re-kneading or re-working or re-balling the dough balls in preparation for using to make pizzas. If so, that could account for the problems you have been having opening up the dough balls to the desired size. If you have not been doing these kinds of things to the dough balls, it may be necessary or advisable to increase the hydration of the formulation a bit.

It is not unusual for a dough formulation to need modification to fit the circumstances. So, once I hear back from you, maybe I can offer up some suggestions.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 10:59:03 AM »
Peter,
Thank you again, for your help!  What is the poppy seed trick?  That sounds interesting.  I have my formulation you gave me at market.  I will get it tomorrow and go over everything I did or didn't do.  I think I have been re-working my dough too much, like you said. when I am preparing to open the skin.  I know by reading all the posts on this forum that are so many variables that can go into making the right dough.  I read and will try each thing I can.  I just watched a video this morning on the computer and see how you should open the skin by using the heel of your hand and then go from there.
I had a bad virus on my computer and had to take my computer to get fixed.  They had to install New Windows installation.  I just got the computer back yesterday and now I can get flash.  I still haven't looked at the dough calculator, but will now.  I will study that for the next couple of days.  Since I am a newbie I have so much to learn.  Thank you for your patience with me.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 11:32:14 AM »
What is the poppy seed trick?


Norma,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. Since I am just about the only one who mentions this method, I perhaps am the only one who uses it.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 11:44:56 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for sharing this with me and others.  I will try that next week and let you know the results.
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Offline Ronzo

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2009, 03:04:00 PM »
Norma,
That pie is killer looking!
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/ - http://pinterest.com/NewTexianBrew

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2009, 06:47:29 PM »
Ron,
Thank you very much for the compliment!   
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2009, 09:49:07 PM »
Peter,
I went over what I did when I made the dough.  I measured the flour on a scale, measured the yeast, then the salt, then the water and olive oil.  After reading other posts I might be making the mistake of just adding the flour, yeast, salt, and water to the mixer.  I didn't first mix the yeast and water with a little flour, then add the rest of the flour.  I added the olive oil near the end of my mix.  I didn't check the temperature of the water.  I had it near a heater and thought it was okay.  I guess I should have measured the temperature.  I didn't measure the dough at the end of mixing either.  I do have a digital thermomether and could have used that.  I am going to get a digital scales to measure the ingredients tomorrow.  Now I will have to put the ingredients in the right way.  It is cool here right now.  When it gets hot here, how will I have to adjust my ingredients?  The market has no air conditioning and we have a lot of humidity here in the summer.  I will have to learn what to do then.  After making the dough how long should I let it out to rest, before putting it in the deli case?  The deli case is about 39 degrees.  When the dough is finished should it have a satiny finish?  Mine looked like this.  Here is a picture.  Thanks again for your help!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2009, 10:15:41 PM »
Norma,

As I mentioned in Reply 1 earlier in this thread, you should follow the dough preparation/management instructions given at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. If you did not follow those instructions in making the dough, your results could well have differed from what you would get by following the instructions because of the way that the flour is hydrated. Looking at the photo you provided, the dough looks dryer than I think it should be. If that dryness persists once you follow the proper steps to make the dough, you will perhaps want to increase the hydration by a couple of percent, to about 60%. If the dough is still not rising sufficiently after one day of cold fermentation, you might also increase the IDY to 0.375%. If you have corrected your computer problem, you should be able to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with some test dough formulations. If you have problems doing this, let me know.

Once summer arrives, the usual practice is to lower the water temperature. It might also be necessary to reduce the amount of yeast. By then, you may have a better idea as to temperature ranges and other conditions that might affect the dough.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:18:09 AM by Pete-zza »