Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation (Read 18998 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #140 on:** June 18, 2009, 09:31:54 PM »

Peter,
Okay, I will look again and see what I did. I will recalculate and see if there is a difference.
Thank you,
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #141 on:** June 24, 2009, 07:12:16 AM »

Forum Members,
I have tried Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza under American Style. If anyone is interested you can see the results I achieved under his post and thread. Thanks to everyone on this forum for helping me understand how to make pizza. I am still learning more each week and enjoying the journey. Hopefully if the future I will be able to try all the formulas to make pizza on this forum. I especially liked Peter's clone of Papa John's Clone Pizza. The higher oil and longer fermentation really contributed to the taste of the crust. I am going to try a higher hydration in the future to see what results I will get.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #142 on:** June 29, 2009, 08:10:50 AM »

Hi all,
I helped my daughter move in Queens, New York yesterday. We stopped at this pizza shop. The NY style pizza was great. I watched the man make the dough and Stromboli. I think I am going to try the round individual pans for holding dough. They are the metal type. Does anyone know where you could find these at a decent price for a 16" dough?
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #143 on:** June 29, 2009, 09:11:25 AM »

Norma,

What you are referring to is often called dough proofing/retarding pans. They are stackable and often used where storage space is at a premium or not readily configurable and/or for small volume applications. Just about all restaurant supply places sell them, as you will see if you do a basic Google search. For example, see http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough-Retarding-and-Proofing-Pans.htm. For some possible options, see also http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/Dough-Pans/Deluxe-Anodized-Aluminum-Dough-Pans. Most restaurant supply places discount the prices shown at the Amnow website.

You will have to do some comparison shopping to find the best combination of price and service. You might also want to post your question at the PMQTT forum. Often the members there have found the best prices and service.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #144 on:** June 29, 2009, 09:47:13 AM »

Peter,
Thank you for the information.

I will look at the information you gave me and post a question at the PMQ Think Tank. I think the dough balls would cool faster for me and in my situation, it would also save space. As I was watching the man make pizza yesterday, he just pulled about 8 pans from the cooler and then just started using them. The pizza turned out well. No time to let the dough come to room temperature. The dough hadn't risen very much. It still will take me a long time to study all the information on making pizzas. I will go to New York next month and try a real brick oven pizza. Probably more than one.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #145 on:** July 01, 2009, 09:10:18 AM »

Peter,
When I made my dough on Monday, I decided to try a lower IDY percent. I used .18% instead of .30%. Referring to Tom Lehmann's posts on using IDY, he said you can use anywhere between .05%-.75% IDY in trying to manage the fermentation. He also said 1.0% is about the highest you can go in adding IDY. I kept the rest of my dough management the same, except I kept my pizza prep refrigerator temperature at 36 degrees and my deli case temperature at 39 degrees. My pizza dough yesterday hadn't risen quite as much. The temperature of the flour, room temp, humidity, water temperature were all almost the same as before. The dough turned out well. The dough didn't rise as much. When making my pizza the dough managed well. This is a picture of the pizza.
I did post a question on PMQ Think Tank about dough/retarder, dough proofer pans. Tom Lehmann answered me back and said to try bread bags. Tom also gave me the size to buy. He said they can work out well. I asked him when using the bags if moisture won't collect in the bags if you just oil the balls and put them into bags. I will let you know what his reply is. That would be a good idea to try, if it works for me instead of the dough/retarder, dough/proofer pans. Do you ever use bags to store your dough?
I was wondering how pizza makers can really decide on what percent of IDY to use or do you just have to experiment?

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #146 on:** July 01, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »

Norma,

If you are referring to Tom Lehmann's recent PMQTT posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50583#50583, the 0.5 to 0.75% figure he is talking about there is with respect to compressed (fresh) yeast, not IDY. The usual recommended usage of IDY from a conversion standpoint is one-third the weight of the compressed yeast (or one-third the baker's percent of the compressed yeast). If you were referring to some other Lehmann posts, can you link me to them? Also, how many days did you use for your last dough batch?

Tom replied this morning to your last post on the use of bread bags, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50630#50630. I have played around in the past with all kinds of bags, including zip-type storage bags, regular storage bags without zip-type closures (a recent example can be seen at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8685.msg75983.html#msg75983), and reused supermarket bread bags, which is what Tom often recommends to home pizza makers. I used the supermarket bread bags just as Tom described, and had no problems doing so. When I read Tom's reply this morning, I wondered whether the bread bags would constrict the expansion of the dough balls in some unwanted manner. However, I once ran an experiment in which I vacuum sealed a dough ball into a plastic storage bag (using my FoodSaver unit) and the dough still managed to expand, albeit mostly laterally (which it would also have done in some other kind of container). There was a small amount of moisture that condensed on the inner surface of the bag after the long fermentation time but it was not excessive or problematic. You can see some photos of the dough ball in the bag at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42774.html#msg42774. I assume that if the dough balls in the bread bags are using normal amounts of yeast there should be no problem of the expanding doughs forcing the bags open because of excessive expansion.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #147 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:30:07 PM »

Peter,
Yes, you were right about the yeast. I had just read Tom Lehmann's post you referred me to and didn't actually let it sink in about the difference in the kinds of yeast. Since I am using IDY, how much can that vary in percentage and still be able to make a decent dough for use the next day? I did decrease the IDY and made the batch on Monday and used it Tuesday, so it was only a one day fermentation. It seemed to work well for me. I was just experimenting.
I did read Tom Lehmann's post about the bags and am wondering about the expansion, too. I didn't ask that question, but will try some of my dough in the bags this coming Monday.
Thank you for your help.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #148 on:** July 01, 2009, 03:17:53 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on July 01, 2009, 02:30:07 PM

Since I am using IDY, how much can that vary in percentage and still be able to make a decent dough for use the next day? I did decrease the IDY and made the batch on Monday and used it Tuesday, so it was only a one day fermentation. It seemed to work well for me. I was just experimenting.

Norma,

That is a hard question to answer with any precision. It is because of all the factors and variables that can affect a dough's performance. These factors and variables include all of the temperatures that we have talked about before (room temperature, flour temperature, mixer friction factor, water temperature, and finished dough temperature), the proper stacking and downstacking of the dough balls (or using trays or bread flour bags to store the dough balls), and the refrigerator/cooler temperatures. The basic IDY range for Tom's NY style dough recipe is about 0.17-0.25%. When I absolutely have to have the dough usable the next day, I tend to err on the side of using a bit more yeast. But I also take into account the temperature at the particular time of year. If you used 0.18% for a one-day dough, that suggests that it is warm or getting warmer where you are in Pennsylvania. You might want to stick with that value for the time being. At the same time, I would try to keep the finished dough temperature at the same value as you have been using. If the dough balls ferment differently using the bread bags, which may allow the dough balls to cool down faster than when using dough boxes or proofing/retarding pans, you may find that you will have to make more adjustments.

Were you (and your customers) satisfied with the one-day crusts using the IDY at 0.18%?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #149 on:** July 01, 2009, 06:14:25 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for your explanations. Since Tom's NY Style dough recipe calls for about 0.17-0.25% and I was using .30% before, I was a little on the high side. My finished dough temperature is between 80-85 degrees.
Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
4224.77 g | 149.02 oz | 9.31 lbs
2450.37 g | 86.43 oz | 5.4 lbs
12.67 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.21 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
73.93 g | 2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.42 tbsp | 0.28 cups
42.25 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.39 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
6804 g | 240 oz | 15 lbs | TF = N/A
Yes, it is a little warmer here, but not like most spring and summers. It has been a cool spring and summer so far.
My customers, the regular standholders and I didn't seem to taste any difference in the taste of the finished crust.
I will keep in mind all the things you have taught me and all the posts I have read on this forum.
I have started to make garlic knots, cheesy bread sticks, and pizza pinwheels out of the same dough. They can be served with the homemade Mariana sauce I make. People are very receptive to these. Next week I will try to remember to take pictures of them. I use the fresh herbs from my garden in making these.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #150 on:** July 01, 2009, 06:25:27 PM »

Norma,

I didn't think to ask earlier as you have been doing all of your dough experiments but if you change the dough batch size that can affect the results also. For example the friction factor will change with dough batch size. Also, if you make a smaller dough batch, you can divide and scale faster, and get the dough balls into the cooler faster to then cool faster. This means that you can't expect a dough formulation that works well for one dough batch size to work the same or as well as with a larger or smaller dough batch size.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #151 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:26:29 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for thinking about my batch size. I have been making 15 lb. batches, except when I made your PJ's clone and the other experiment I did with longer fermentation.
My regular batches I can divide, scale, form the balls and oil the balls in about 10 minutes, then in the deli case. I repeat this for as much dough as I need for the week.
I had wanted to try the experimentation with the your PJ's Clone with higher hydration this Friday, but because of the holiday, I have to pick up flour and get other things at the Restaurant Store on Thursday. Many places here have Friday off, so my spare time is limited this week.
I know I still have many things to learn about managing dough. I will keep on trying new ways of managing the dough and keep experimenting with longer fermentation until someday I achieve the best pizza I crust I can make. This could take me years, but I really like working with dough. It's just how complicated it can get.

Will keep you posted.
Norma
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #152 on:** July 03, 2009, 08:25:36 AM »

Peter,
After you told me to post a question on PMQ Think Tank about dough/proofer pans, I did get an answer from Tom Lehmann as you told me. Then you had shown me your experiments and I was still wondering about expansion inside the plastic bags, so I posted a question about expansion on the same thread. Here is what Tom Lehmann told me. Maybe other member of this forum would be interested in reading the two answers Tom had replied to about using plastic bags for proofing. I got the bags and will try some of my dough this coming week proofing in the bags to see if there is a difference.
These are the two answers I received.

Norma;
Not to worry. Because the bag doesn't create an insulating layer, there is no need to leave the bag open to help cool the dough ball(s) down. It won't sweat either because the bag will be in direct contact with the dough, and sweating only takes place when there is an air space around the dough ball such as is the case when cans or boxes are used. Pretty nifty, eh?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Norma;
Ahhh, that is why it is important to twist the bag closed and tuck the pony tail under the bag. This allows for some additional expansion of the bag, in addition to the normal stretching as the dough ball expands in size. If you were to close the bag with a knot, the bag would have a high probability of rupturing as the gas pressure increased, the twist and tuck method of closure allows for some escape of gas, plus a little additional expansion. In all my years, using this method, I've never had a bag burst.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #153 on:** July 07, 2009, 11:54:49 PM »

Peter,
I used the lower IDY Monday when I made my dough and also used Tom's advise to use bread bags. I actually purchased 8"x3"x14" bags. They worked great. No sweating, not a lot of rising and by oiling the dough they came right out of the bags and I put them right into the bench flour. There wasn't a lot of expansion, just as Tom said. The last picture here shows the last dough of today and how it looked. I found if I let the dough sit out after coming out of the deli case, it became harder to manage, so I just took two dough balls out at a time. Since I have now purchased 16" screens, it went really well today. Thank you for helping me in this whole process.
Here are some pictures of the dough in the bags, how they looked after taking the pony tail out from the bottom, the pizzas, and the garlic knots and pizza pinwheels. I forgot to take pictures of the cheesy breadsticks.
I still plan on making a trial batch of your PJ's clone with higher hydration this Friday. If it works out okay, I will post the results on your PJ's clone post next week.
Thanks,
Norma

ThunderStik · « **Reply #154 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:26:11 AM »

Wow Norma, thats some good looking pies. I will have a slice of each please.

norma427 · « **Reply #155 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:41:48 PM »

ThunderStik,
Thank you for the compliment. I have been having more consistent results since using All Trumps and also with Peter's help. I see your are using All Trumps now, too. I want to try more experiments with Peter's PJ's clone with higher hydration, but I have had pneumonia for a week and a half, but am better now. Hopefully I can get on with the experiments soon.
Norma

JConk007 · « **Reply #156 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:35:16 PM »

Nice Knots Norma say that 10 times fast

where did you see those ? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2851.msg72178.html#msg72178
did you use the same dough as pizza?
john

norma427 · « **Reply #157 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:56:51 AM »

John,
That was way too funny, saying nice knots 10 times fast!

I have been to New York many times before I decided to have a pizza stand. I have seen the garlic knots there. I have also seen your garlic knots on the link you provided, too. They really looked amazing. Better than mine! It's weird though that I never tried a WFO pizza when I was in New York. I have seen your amazing pizzas you make. I was just trying to find a way to make extra money, so that is how I decided to open a pizza stand at our local farmer's market. I always loved pizza, but never tried to make it myself until this year. The next time I visit New York, that is the first priority, to try a brick oven pizza.
Yes, I used the same Tom Lehmann dough formulation that Peter helped me out with. Since using All Trumps, I have more consistent results.
This site has amazed me with all the information and all the help everyone has given me.
Thanks to all!

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #158 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:13:03 PM »

Hi,
Just wanted to give an update to anyone that is interested. All your help and this forum have helped me immensely. I finally can open my skins and put them on a wooden peel and just got the knack of getting them into the oven without a mess. Took me 3 months to get to this point. I never would have come this far without everyone's advice and help.
Thanks to all!

Norma

ThunderStik · « **Reply #159 on:** August 05, 2009, 06:24:51 PM »

Good job! MMMM looks like breakfast!