Author Topic: Homemade pizzas don't look like commercial pizzas (Read 3477 times)

Doc_D · « **on:** April 08, 2009, 09:13:03 PM »

I've been lurking and here goes my first post.

I've been making Pizza for a while now. They come out pretty good but still don't have that quality of a commerical pizza. I've watched all the pizzas that Pete-zza makes and they all look pretty much like my pizzas. Most of the pizzas I've seen on here have a similar "look" to them.

That got me to thinking a little bit about the crust. I think the reason that these home made pizzas all look the same is because the crust thickness isn't very consistent across the pie. They tend to by very thin in the middle and thick at the edges. So that got me wondering if that inconsistent crust thickness could have anything to do with not being able to achieve that certain something that a commercial pizzaria has.

I know the franchise pizza places use a machine to get a very consistent crust. My guess is that machine uses a couple drums with a predefined space to flatten the dough without "rolling it out" per se.

Anyone have a friend with a pizzeria? I'd be curious how our homemade dough would fair if it was prepared by one of these machines.

As a side question I've looked but haven't found it yet. Has anyone gotten a dough ball from one of the franchise shops and tried cooking it at home. My suspicion is that if they did it turns out similar to homemade pie.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:41:24 PM »

Doc_D,

I have long contended that the two weak links to making pizza in the home are the mixer and the oven. We go through all kinds of contortions to get a dough that is robust enough to be able to shape, stretch and toss just like the professionals do. But, even when we use the identical dough ingredients that professionals use, we will come up short. Our skins will have a tendency to be thinner in the middle and thicker at the rims, as you have observed. But we are in part responsible for that problem. Part of it is inexperience in making skins in great volume but most of our members also like to use hydrations that are higher than what professionals in general use. We like to use hydrations above 60% and sometimes much higher; most professionals use a hydration of around 56-59%. When I have used such hydration values, I have found the doughs to be less extensible and much easier to shape, stretch and toss without experiencing skin thickness problems. I am sure I could do a better job of it if I made pizzas all day long for a living, but I have found that I can get by pretty well if I use a hydration values similar to what most professionals use. Many operators use machines (dough sheeters/rollers), but it isn't only because of greater uniformity of skin thickness. It is easier to use such machines than to try to train workers, most of whom are bound to be kids and other low-wage workers who don't stick around for long, to open up dough balls by hand. Increasingly, pizza operators, and especially the high-volume places, are going to machines to work their doughs.

Our home ovens are also no match for commercial ovens. They are too deep (they are meant to be multi-tasking ovens capable of baking just about everything, including the large Thanksgiving turkey) whereas commercial deck ovens are shallow and specially designed to bake pizzas. They also do a much better job of heat retention, because of the large mass of stone. Conveyor ovens use a combination of top and bottom heat that we can't replicate in our home ovens, which means that our pizzas won't look exactly like a conveyor-baked pizza.

I have read of several accounts where someone took a piece of dough from home to bake in a commercial oven, and vice versa. One such report that I came across a while ago at the PMQ Think Tank is this one: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=32504#32504. For a member's report on using a commercial dough in a home oven setting, see this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3993.msg33307.html#msg33307. Even professionals who occasionally bring their dough from work to bake at home say that the results are very different, and not as good as the results they get at work.

Peter

tdeane · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2009, 01:55:24 AM »

Peter's right about the home oven being no match for a commercial oven. A commercial oven at 600 degrees produces a much better product than a home oven at 600 degrees. The density of the stone and also the ovens ability to maintain the temperature make a huge difference. As far as stretching the dough goes, it does take a lot of practice to stretch a wet dough consistently in a commercial setting. I use a fairly wet dough( over 66% hydration) and it has taken me a couple of months of stretching doughs to be able to consistently stretch doughs evenly and in a timely manner and I am still an amateur compared to the guys at places like Grimaldi's. They are so fast! I am more at the pace of Dom at Di Fara(well maybe a little faster).

Fingerstyle · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:11:38 AM »

Doc_D
No doubt a home oven can't match commercial, but as to thickness you might experiment a bit. Personally I like a big cornice and thin center, but if I wanted a more commercial looking pie I would simply use a rolling pin to roll a consistent thickness.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:37:52 AM »

I recalled that Tom Lehmann spoke about some of the shortcomings of home ovens at the PMQ Think Tank, and was able to find one of his posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=31817#31817.

Peter

scott r · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2009, 06:43:19 PM »

I started making pizzas at home and now consult for pizzerias, so I have been on both sides. I was shocked at how much better (and different looking) my pizza was when I baked in my first professional pizzeria. The oven difference is obviously key, but on top of that the mixer, and even dough batch size can have a HUGE effect on the final product. With the exception of Sicilian style all of the pizzas that I make or attempt to duplicate are hand tossed NY/Neapolitan style, so the dough sheeting thing is not a factor as far as I can see. I have 2 of the best home countertop mixers money can buy, a Santos fork mixer and an Electrolux DLX, and in my opinion neither one of these can make a dough as good as a commercial Hobart mixer. Of course some pizzerias have even better mixers than a Hobart such as spiral, fork, or diving arm mixers.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2009, 06:58:50 PM »

Big Dave Ostrander, a former pizza operator now a consultant to the pizza trade, once referred to KitchenAid stand mixers as "stocking stuffers".

Peter

johnnytuinals · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:10:13 PM »

I buy my frozen dough balls at walmarts at $1.12 each,Just picked up another 20 today(since thats all they had}

I used to bake my pizza at 550 on my stone in my oven....
but now since I use chunks,I tuened down my oven to 475....

I like a thin pie and with the chunks take a tad longer,but the pizza comes out great........

But its the sause and Cheese that will make the differance....JT

mikeintj · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:20:48 AM »

I can understand the answers that stress the difference between home ovens and commercial ovens. But I don't understand the answers that mention mixers. After all, don't Anthony at UPN and Chris at Pizzeria Bianco hand mix their dough? (and by hand mix I would imagine that their dough is close to being no-knead dough)

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:39:42 AM »

Quote from: mikeintj on April 10, 2009, 09:20:48 AM

I can understand the answers that stress the difference between home ovens and commercial ovens. But I don't understand the answers that mention mixers. After all, don't Anthony at UPN and Chris at Pizzeria Bianco hand mix their dough? (and by hand mix I would imagine that their dough is close to being no-knead dough)

Mixing & kneading are 2 different things. According to Scott R, Anthony no longer kneads his dough by hand. I'm not sure about Chris. No, their dough is definitely not no knead dough. There is no way that anyone can produce a finished product of that caliber by just mixing a bunch of ingredients together.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2009, 10:04:18 AM »

I don't mean to minimize the accomplishments of either Anthony or Chris Bianco, but I believe their pizzas are only 10"-12" in size (more like a personal size), which are not sizes that offer a lot of challenge, whether the dough is hand kneaded or not. If you want a truer test of your dough handling skills, try making an 18" skin, especially one made from a high hydration dough that has been kneaded by hand or home machine and cold fermented for two or three days. I might add that I think that it is possible to make a hand kneaded dough that is as good as my basic KitchenAid stand mixer can produce using a C-hook, and maybe even better on occasion, but it won't be the equal of a dough made using a Hobart mixer.

Peter

scott r · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2009, 12:18:56 PM »

I did notice that anthony's pizza got better right around the time he switched to machine kneaded dough. Unfortunately it was right around the same time he got his new oven, so it is hard to judge which switch had what effect on the pizza.

tdeane · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2009, 12:09:16 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on April 10, 2009, 10:04:18 AM

I don't mean to minimize the accomplishments of either Anthony or Chris Bianco, but I believe their pizzas are only 10"-12" in size (more like a personal size), which are not sizes that offer a lot of challenge, whether the dough is hand kneaded or not. If you want a truer test of your dough handling skills, try making an 18" skin, especially one made from a high hydration dough that has been kneaded by hand or home machine and cold fermented for two or three days. I might add that I think that it is possible to make a hand kneaded dough that is as good as my basic KitchenAid stand mixer can produce using a C-hook, and maybe even better on occasion, but it won't be the equal of a dough made using a Hobart mixer.

Peter

Well I certainly have to agree that handling 18" pizzas is much more difficult and would add that the dough that makes a great 12-14" pizza won't necessarily make a great 18" pizza.

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2009, 02:01:37 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on April 08, 2009, 10:41:24 PM

Our home ovens are also no match for commercial ovens. They are too deep (they are meant to be multi-tasking ovens capable of baking just about everything, including the large Thanksgiving turkey) whereas commercial deck ovens are shallow and specially designed to bake pizzas.

I never thought about that, the height of the oven itself being a big difference. Makes sense though, heat issue aside. It made me wonder about this option, and I'm sure it's been tried, but what if you literally laid a brick wall on the upper rack? All the way back, and as high as the broil element. This would, seemingly, confine the heat to the new short open area. Here. I photoshopped what it might look like...
Thoughts?

gfgman · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2009, 03:09:42 PM »

Interesting. Something I thought of was getting several rectangle baking stones; maybe putting 3 or 4 of them in my oven. That effectively reduces the space in which the pizza cooks, it provides top and bottom heat, and it allows for cooking more than one pizza.
Assuming of course that you allow plenty of time to get them hot. If I could do 2 or 3 pizzas at a clip, that would be perfect.

GMan

pwaldman · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2009, 03:23:27 PM »

I found with my oven that placing my Fibrament stone higher up (about 5 inches from the top) and preheating for 45 minutes with 5 minutes Hi Broil just before I load I get a well balanced bake between the bottom and top. The confined space above the stone has a higher air temperature and the heat is also radiated more directly from the top surface of the oven. I can usually cook 3 or 4 16" pies without having to wait for recovery (usually cooks between 5 - 7 minutes).

gfgman · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2009, 02:29:49 PM »

Quote from: pwaldman on April 17, 2009, 03:23:27 PM

I found with my oven that placing my Fibrament stone higher up (about 5 inches from the top) and preheating for 45 minutes with 5 minutes Hi Broil just before I load I get a well balanced bake between the bottom and top. The confined space above the stone has a higher air temperature and the heat is also radiated more directly from the top surface of the oven. I can usually cook 3 or 4 16" pies without having to wait for recovery (usually cooks between 5 - 7 minutes).

Excellent idea! I think I will try that with tonight's pie and see what I get.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2009, 01:37:58 PM »

For an update on the matter of a home baked pizza resembling one baked in a commercial oven, see this PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=48686#48686.

Peter

Chef_Boy-R-Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2009, 05:20:15 PM »

Quote from: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 02:01:37 PM

I never thought about that, the height of the oven itself being a big difference. Makes sense though, heat issue aside. It made me wonder about this option, and I'm sure it's been tried, but what if you literally laid a brick wall on the upper rack? All the way back, and as high as the broil element. This would, seemingly, confine the heat to the new short open area. Here. I photoshopped what it might look like...
Thoughts?

That's basically what I do with my oven...I created two zones...an upper and a lower...i cook the pizza on the lower and the thermostat is in the upper zone. Beneath the foil in the upper zone are clay tiles i got from HD. It Gets up to 700+ degrees. First few times I got some scorched pies....but i have it down now...Works great!!!

Davydd · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2009, 05:22:08 PM »

I bought this GE Profile electric double oven range. The upper range is shallow and the controls have a specific pizza setting mode. With a stone and 550 degrees you can get pretty good pizzas from the oven. I looked at everything available about a year ago and this way by far the best home free standing range in my opinion for my needs in baking pizza and bread.

http://www.geappliances.com/products/introductions/double_oven_range/