Author Topic: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance  (Read 5561 times)

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Offline tdeane

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 06:54:05 PM »
With respect to the bread flour, what you can expect to find is that the bread flour, because of its higher protein content than weaker flours, will have a higher gluten formation characteristic, which should help better retain the gases of fermentation and for a longer period of time. You should also get more crust coloration and flavor. You should also get a slightly chewier crust. If you can locate a source of vital wheat gluten, you can increase the protein content of the bread flour even more--up to around 14% if you'd like. That value is typical of most high-gluten flours in the U.S. Not everyone likes using VWG, but I have gotten fond of using it, especially if I am using a dough formulation that calls for high-gluten flour. Like Terry Deane, I happen to like a good quality bread flour pretty much by itself, and that is what I use most of the time.

Peter
I agree about the bread flour but the reason I asked what the protein % of the AP flour you're using now is, is because in Canada AP flour is a stronger flour than in the US. The protein in AP flour in Canada is about equal to a bread flour in the US and a bread flour in Canada lies somewhere between a bread flour and high gluten flour in the US. Would you say that's about right Peter?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 10:45:18 PM by tdeane »


Offline Schmid65

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 07:37:16 PM »
Heehee I'll be opening up a Pizzeria in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia hopefully soon. Same thing there, all they have is Pizza Hut and some of the smaller chains. Nothing good.

Your pizzas look good :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2009, 09:01:00 PM »
I agree about the bread flour but the reason I asked what the protein % of the AP flour you're using now is, is because in Canada AP flour is a stronger flour than in the US. The protein in AP flour in Canada is about equal to a bread flour in the US and a bread flour in Canada lies somewhere between a bread flour and high gluten flour in the US. Would you say that's a bout right Peter?


Terry,

When I last researched Canadian retail flours (by speaking with a customer service rep at Smucker's, in Canada), I was told that the Robin Hood all-purpose flour has a protein content of 12%. That is higher than most U.S. all-purpose flours, including the King Arthur all-purpose flour (11.7%), and is about the same as the Gold Medal Better for Bread/Harvest King flour (12%, according to the GM specs at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc). I was told that the Five Roses all-purpose flour has a protein content of 13%. That is closer to a U.S. bread flour, like the King Arthur bread flour, which has a protein content of 12.7%. Later, I learned that there is a Robin Hood flour called Best for Bread (http://www.robinhood.ca/product.details.asp?pid=21&prodcid=9), which is made from hard red spring wheat, but I don't know the protein content of that flour. But, generally speaking, Canadian retail flours appear to have higher protein contents than their retail counterparts in the U.S.

In Saad's case, he will be looking at the Gold Medal bread flour and the Pillsbury bread flour. As noted above, the GM bread flour is around 12% protein. The Pillsbury bread flour appears to be around 13% protein (4 grams per 31-gram serving) but it might be less because of rounding. I have read that the Pillsbury bread flour is milled from hard red spring wheat so it should have a pretty good protein content. Saad has already used the Pillsbury bread flour, according to http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64228.html#msg64228.

Peter


Offline s00da

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 04:52:14 PM »

It will be like running a Maserati or Lamborghini at 30 miles per hour. Forgive me if I have gotten the name of your car wrong. I assume that everyone in an oil-rich country such as yours is driving such a vehicle.

With respect to the bread flour, what you can expect to find is that the bread flour, because of its higher protein content than weaker flours, will have a higher gluten formation characteristic, which should help better retain the gases of fermentation and for a longer period of time. You should also get more crust coloration and flavor. You should also get a slightly chewier crust. If you can locate a source of vital wheat gluten, you can increase the protein content of the bread flour even more--up to around 14% if you'd like. That value is typical of most high-gluten flours in the U.S. Not everyone likes using VWG, but I have gotten fond of using it, especially if I am using a dough formulation that calls for high-gluten flour. Like Terry Deane, I happen to like a good quality bread flour pretty much by itself, and that is what I use most of the time.

Peter

Comparing the Income (per capita) of the US being $33K to Kuwait's $16K, you should have 2 Lamborghini's  :P It's a misconception that many have about people living in the oil-rich counties.

Regarding using bread flour, I have attached images of previous pizza I made using Pillsbury bread flour. These were baked at 750 F and at that time I was still using ADY but you are right about the flavor, it had great crust flavor even without a sourdough starter. I wonder how it would taste with the Ischia.

One thing though is that I found them too chewy or leathery to my taste. Even others commented on them that they taste good and provide a good jaw exercise  :D I wonder if they were too thick and please let me know how can I better adapt bread flour to NY style so they won't end up being too chewy or leathery...or that's how it's supposed to be?

Saad

Offline s00da

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 05:01:30 PM »
I agree about the bread flour but the reason I asked what the protein % of the AP flour you're using now is, is because in Canada AP flour is a stronger flour than in the US. The protein in AP flour in Canada is about equal to a bread flour in the US and a bread flour in Canada lies somewhere between a bread flour and high gluten flour in the US. Would you say that's about right Peter?

Terry,

Sorry to reply late to your question but the flour pack had no information so I contacted the milling company and they provided me with the following info:

Flour                 Gluten %    Wet Gluten   
OO                   21% Min
OOO                 23% Min 
OOOO               26% Min   
PATENT FLOUR   27% Min   

OOOO is the bread flour having protein of min 12%


I also learned the following about the naming conventions used from the company:

OO        Equivalent  to  Whole Wheat Flour
OOO      Equivalent  to  Brown Flour
OOOO    Equivalent  to  White Flour
PATENT Equivalent  to   Cake Flour

While a 12% protein would sound like Pillsbury or GM bread flour but when I used and compared, it's even weaker than Caputo 00. It's even weaker than Pillsbury AP flour. So I guess standards or gluten quality are very different.

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 07:40:07 PM »
One thing though is that I found them too chewy or leathery to my taste. Even others commented on them that they taste good and provide a good jaw exercise  :D I wonder if they were too thick and please let me know how can I better adapt bread flour to NY style so they won't end up being too chewy or leathery...or that's how it's supposed to be?


Saad,

Pretty much by definition, a NY style pizza will have a chewy crust. It is also sometimes described as "leathery". Usually the first line of attack to reduce the chewiness in a finished crust is to use a weaker (lower protein) flour. In your case, in lieu of moving down the protein scale to all-purpose flour, you could combine some all-purpose flour with the bread flour to achieve a final protein content that is somewhere between the two flours. A handy tool to use for this purpose is November's Mixed-Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. You don't have to limit yourself to using all-purpose flour to soften the bread flour. You can also use pastry flour or cake flour. However, the more of these flours you use, there will be some loss of overall crust color and flavor.

You can also soften a NY style crust by using oil and/or sugar or honey in the dough, albeit at the expense of moving away from the NY style, which classically uses no sugar or oil, to arguably some other style. But, if oil is added to the dough, depending on its amount it can help retain moisture in the dough during baking, thereby leading to a softer crust and crumb. Sugar and honey, by virtue of being hygroscopic in nature, will help retain moisture in the dough, even while the pizza is cooling after baking, and thereby contribute to a more tender eating characteristic. Both of these options (oil and sugar) are commonly used with pizzas described as being "NY style" even though that characterization will be contested by some. A point to keep in mind when using sugar or honey is that if the dough has too much sugar (or honey), you perhaps don't want to bake the pizza on a very hot stone surface. You might be able to use a pizza screen on the stone surface to raise the pizza above the baking surface during baking and thereby help minimize excessive bottom crust browning. You can see some examples of NY "thin"/American hybrid pizzas at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310.

A still further way to soften a finished crust is to cool the pizza on a substrate that will force some of the moisture escaping from the pizza back into the pizza. For example, if you cool the pizza on a metal serving platter, instead of on a metal grid or insulative cardboard round, some of the moisture trying to escape the pizza will go back into the finished crust and help keep it soft. I often experience this effect while I am trying to take photos of pizzas cooling on my metal serving platter.

Depending on the dough formulation, no doubt there are baking methods and temperatures and bake times that can help produce a less chewy crust.

There is no reason why you can't use your Ischia starter culture with a bread flour, or even a high-gluten flour. I did some experiments along these lines with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation and got good results.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 07:16:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2009, 03:41:57 PM »
I hope someone would check this thread as it's too old now  :P

I tried using bread flour, both the Gold Medal and Pillsbury but I think I haven't been lucky. Something went wrong with the dough and I think it's because I treated them as I was treating my AP flour. My mixing method is pretty simple; room temp. water, dissolve salt, add starter and then start mixing(slow) and adding the flour slowly over a 30 minute period. I use a Kitchen Aid like mixer and I use the beater and then switch the C-hook when the dough is spinning doing nothing. I give a 20 mins riposo and then a 2 mins hand kneading.

I noticed that both flours are slightly lumpy during mixing, specially the Pillsbury. When it's time for baking, I'm unable to stretch a 630g ball beyond 16 inches and I can see the stretched dough having uneven thickness all over. Once the dough reaches 16 inches, it starts tearing at the edges and showing a strands kind of effect.

Nonetheless, I can see how bread flour would change a 18 inch pizza. The flavor and the crunchiness would perfectly suit such big sized pizza.

For my next attempt I will try to improve the dough by sifting the flour and increase kneading time by 10-15 minutes. I wouldn't worry about the dough reaching 85 F or beyond as I'm not using IDY/ADY.

Hope someone could through in more hints.

Offline tdeane

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Re: 18" NY Pizza Preparation Guidance
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2009, 05:27:54 PM »
My mix procedure is like this, mix just water and 75% of the flour with paddle attatchment on low speed for one minute. Rest for 20 min. Then add the starter and mix for 6 minutes with spiral hook( I add the the salt and idy/ady, if you are using it, at 4 minutes). Then I add the rest of the flour. Not too slowly, i usually have all the flour incorporated by the 11 minute mark or so. Then I mix for another 9 minutes.