Author Topic: Koloa's progress with AT  (Read 6321 times)

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Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2009, 12:53:22 PM »
also, any suggestions to have a fuller pizza sauce. i am just using crushed whole plum peeled tomatoes. i really like the taste now. however, as seen in the photo, the sauce tends to sperate. maybe i need to process it more? or possibly add some tomato paste or sauce?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2009, 01:54:51 PM »
btw, how can i tell if a dough is over proofed?


koloa101,

There are several possible signs depending on the dough formulation and dough management. If the dough rises, peaks and then falls back materially, and especially if left in that condition for some time, is one sign. If the dough becomes wet and slack, that is another sign. If you need to use a lot of bench flour to be able to shape and form the dough into a skin and the skin develops tears, that is still another sign. An overfermented or overproofed dough, if it can be formed into a workable skin, however that is achieved, will often bake up in the oven with little oven spring, poor crust color, and may be cracker like. In my experience, it is harder to tell if a naturally leavened dough overferments or overproofs than one using commercial yeast because the signs are not as pronounced. But overfermenting and overproofing can happen to both.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 12:01:20 PM »
thanks peter,
i can tell now that this dough which was a 3day cold ferment at 20% italian starter was pretty sad. i am still on the path for a bubbly crust.

Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2009, 12:01:49 AM »
first photo is AT + 20% italian starter + 25% caputo flour prepped at 2pm cooked at ~930pm same day. i was reading the difara thread and decided to see what would happen if i added caputo. not much difference from the previous natural starter pies with 1-3 day cold ferment. second pic is AT with 20% starter prepped at 2pm cooked at 10pm. i can taste just a slight soughdoughness to the crust. i will try with lower hydration, autolyse, and some stetch/folding technique.

i also made some good progress on baguettes today. i finally found a video that showed some cool shaping technique. i tried it today and it made alot of difference in the end product. i was able to get a somewhat rounded shape baguette as suppose to something that looks like it sits low like a hershey kiss.

here is the video

Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 10:43:15 PM »
hey all,
made some progress tonight using mixing methods ive learned over at thefreshloaf.com. i posted a link earlier in this thread. autolyse for 20 mins followed by a stretch and fold every 20 minutes for 3 times. i did a 1 day bulk cold ferment, took the dough out of the fridge for 1 hour. after 1 hour, divided the dough and shaped into ball and let rest for another hour. it was bubble galore. the finished crust was light and airy with a nice crisp. it made a major difference in the dough.


Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009, 10:45:11 PM »
pic of the dough

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2009, 11:08:31 PM »
koloa101,

Nice job.

Several years ago, I saw a pizza dough recipe in the New York Times that used the multiple stretch and fold technique you described except that the intervals were 30 minutes instead of 20 minutes.

Can you refresh us on the dough formulation you used and also the bake protocol?

Peter


Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2009, 11:32:52 PM »
hi peter,
it is the same recipe as all my previous posts, as i recall off hand it is

all trumps high gluten unbromated flour
65% water
2% oil
2% salt
.4% yeast

combine flour and water let sit for 20 mins

add yeast, salt, oil and mix till blended

place dough in container sprayed with oil

do a few stretch and folds every 20mins for 3 times

*the dough looks shiny and taffy like.

refrigerate for 1 day

remove dough from fridge, let sit for 1 hour

remove dough from container, divide and shape, and let sit for 45-1hr on wooden board or bakers clothe

cooked on baking stone at around 550-565 for 7 mins

enjoy!

the author of this technique is Anis Bouabsa. from what i read, he won the best baguette in paris award.

http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/viamichelin/gbr/tpl/mag5/art20080301/htm/tour-gastro-meilleure-baguette-paris-2008.htm



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2009, 11:20:52 AM »
koloa101,

You have made great strides in a short period of time. What factors do you think have been most responsible for your results? And, conversely, what factors have you found not to really matter.

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2009, 01:22:00 PM »
hi peter,
it is the same recipe as all my previous posts, as i recall off hand it is

all trumps high gluten unbromated flour
65% water
2% oil
2% salt
.4% yeast

combine flour and water let sit for 20 mins

add yeast, salt, oil and mix till blended

place dough in container sprayed with oil

do a few stretch and folds every 20mins for 3 times

*the dough looks shiny and taffy like.

refrigerate for 1 day

remove dough from fridge, let sit for 1 hour

remove dough from container, divide and shape, and let sit for 45-1hr on wooden board or bakers clothe

cooked on baking stone at around 550-565 for 7 mins

enjoy!

the author of this technique is Anis Bouabsa. from what i read, he won the best baguette in paris award.

http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/viamichelin/gbr/tpl/mag5/art20080301/htm/tour-gastro-meilleure-baguette-paris-2008.htm




This post, and your pizza itself, has inspired me to try rest periods on the Lehman dough I make. Jeff Varasano also states the importance of these rests, but he had 3 hours worth of them. I just made what will be a 3 day dough, 2% sugar added, for a 3 ball batch. I mixed about 1/3rd the flour and whipped the batter, let it rest for 20 mins. (Varasano inspired) I added the rest of the flour, wood spoon stirred, and hand kneaded for 3-4 mins. It was wetter than normal, I'll figure the 20 minute batter rest did this? It's now resting for 20. As I usually knead for about 12 minutes total I'll due 2 more kneads of 4 mins a piece, or until it feels right, with 1 more rest in the middle. I'll divide the balls after 3rd knead though, and proceed in normal Lehman format from there with a 2 hour or so plastic covered counter rise. (getting warmer nowadays) I'm very curious to see the difference with the rest periods. I am still using King A's bread flour, not trumps, so we'll see! More on Sunday...

This pizza is so beautiful, what a bubbly dough and finished product! Nice work.  :chef:
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 07:23:00 AM »
hi Peter,
as far as this pie, i think the main factors that contributed to this pizza(i believe my all time best) is the initial mixing method. i have been making baguettes using the french baker's mixing method and decided it should also work well for pizza. the finished dough was very elastic and had a taffy like shine to it. the finished dough ball felt like it was waiting to explode. also, i would like to add the high hydration dough was easy to handle. it wasn't as 'loose' as previous 65% hydration doughs, it felt more like a ~60% hydration dough. the mixing method definitely made the glutens strong. it was pretty cool. other important factors i believe to make good dough include cold fermentation(1-3 days), final proof of dough balls in a bakers clothe or wooden board, 63% or more hydration and flour quality.
it seems to me that recipes ive been using for sourdough/wheat/raisin walnut/ciabatta/baguettes that use IDY share a common window of 3 hrs time room temp living before baking. for example, the french baker proofs/preps dough 1 hr 20mins after flour and water are mixed, followed by a cold ferment in the fridge, initial shaping then 1 hr dough rest at room temp, another shaping and a 45mins rest, and then into the oven. the raisin walnut bread recipe from peter reinhearts book BBA, has a 2 hour proof, a punch down shape into loaves, and then a 1 hr rest before baking.

however, the main contributing factor to my strides in pizza making is definitely attributed to all of your helpful posts and feedback! it motivates me to share things that i have learned, successes and mistakes, with everyone else! also all the helpful members in this forum who seem to have an itch to doing things better each time and sharing what they learned as well!





koloa101,

You have made great strides in a short period of time. What factors do you think have been most responsible for your results? And, conversely, what factors have you found not to really matter.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 07:29:06 AM »
thanks pizzastriver. you should definitely see a major difference in the dough quality. it will be very elastic, bubbly, and taffy like. try not to incorporate additional flour into the dough when stretching/folding. also, treat the dough gently, those gluten strands are what you want to keep from tearing so bubbles can form nicely. there is a clip on youtube by the user backhomebaker that demonstrates the stretch and fold technique btw.


This post, and your pizza itself, has inspired me to try rest periods on the Lehman dough I make. Jeff Varasano also states the importance of these rests, but he had 3 hours worth of them. I just made what will be a 3 day dough, 2% sugar added, for a 3 ball batch. I mixed about 1/3rd the flour and whipped the batter, let it rest for 20 mins. (Varasano inspired) I added the rest of the flour, wood spoon stirred, and hand kneaded for 3-4 mins. It was wetter than normal, I'll figure the 20 minute batter rest did this? It's now resting for 20. As I usually knead for about 12 minutes total I'll due 2 more kneads of 4 mins a piece, or until it feels right, with 1 more rest in the middle. I'll divide the balls after 3rd knead though, and proceed in normal Lehman format from there with a 2 hour or so plastic covered counter rise. (getting warmer nowadays) I'm very curious to see the difference with the rest periods. I am still using King A's bread flour, not trumps, so we'll see! More on Sunday...

This pizza is so beautiful, what a bubbly dough and finished product! Nice work.  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2009, 10:04:26 AM »
as far as this pie, i think the main factors that contributed to this pizza(i believe my all time best) is the initial mixing method. i have been making baguettes using the french baker's mixing method and decided it should also work well for pizza. the finished dough was very elastic and had a taffy like shine to it. the finished dough ball felt like it was waiting to explode.

koloa101,

Thanks for the feedback. I can see that you are getting increasingly addicted to the whole dough making thing.

FYI, the New York Times dough recipe I mentioned earlier is this one:

500 grams (about 2 1/4 c.) bread flour
10 grams (2 t.) sea salt
160 grams (about 1 c.) water
5 grams (1 t.) fresh or instant yeast
25 grams (1 1/2 T.) olive oil
A few tablespoons cornmeal, semolina or rice flour.

Mixing by hand:

In a bowl, dissolve the yeast in the water.  The water temperature should be 68-72° F (just slightly lukewarm).  Add the flour and the sea salt to the dissolved yeast. Mix until combined and the dough is somewhat elastic.  Add the olive oil and knead until completely combined.  If the dough is very wet, add a little more flour.  Turn the dough out onto a work surface covered with a sprinkling of flour, and knead for 1 to 2 minutes, pushing the dough with the base of your palm, then folding the dough over itself, turning it 90 degrees and pushing down again.  Cover the dough with a damp cloth, inverted bowl or plastic wrap and let rest for 3 to 5 minutes.  After the rest period, knead the dough another 30 seconds to 1 minute.  At this point the dough should be soft and smooth but firm.

Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turn to coat, cover the bowl with plastic wrap, and let the dough rest.  After 30 minutes, turn the dough (fold the dough over itself as if you are folding a letter).  Let the dough ferment another 30 minutes and turn again. (At this point, if a pizza stone is to be used, the oven can be preheated to the desired temperature to be sure that the stone reaches the desired temperature at the time the pizzas are to be made and baked.)  Rest the dough for another 30 minutes.

Divide the dough into 4 equal pieces (for 4 pizzas) or 2 equal pieces (for 2 pizzas) and lightly round each into a ball.  Let rest, covered, for 10 to 20 minutes.  On a lightly floured surface, using your fingertips, gently press the dough out from the center, forming a flat disc of a size according to the size of the pizzas to be made.  If the dough resists efforts to spread out to form a round (i.e., it springs back), cover the dough with a damp cloth for about 5 minutes and then continue with the shaping after the rest period.  If a very thin crust is desired, a rolling pin may be used.  Transfer to an oiled sheet pan or to a pizza peel lightly sprinkled with cornmeal, semolina or rice flour.  Top and bake the pizza.

Mixing with a food processor:
 
Pulse the food processor to combine the yeast, flour and salt.  With the processor’s motor running, add half of the water and all of the olive oil through the feed tube.  Process for about 30 seconds, using the pulse switch, and adding more water through the feed tube, a little at a time, until the mixture forms a ball and is slightly sticky to the touch.  If it is dry, add another tablespoon or two of water, and process for another 10 seconds. (In the unlikely event the mixture is too sticky, add additional flour, a tablespoon at a time.)   Turn the dough onto a counter or other work surface and proceed as above.

Yield: Dough for 4 small or 2 large pizzas.


I normally don't use bread dough making techniques in making my pizza doughs but I did try the above recipe when I first found it several years ago. I actually made two versions, one without cold fermentation and one with it. I much preferred the cold fermented version because the dough was easier to handle and the finished crust had more flavor. I am always interested in kneading techniques given the inadequacies of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer but I also have a lazy streak in me that says to make the dough and get it into the refrigerator in under 15 minutes and let biochemical gluten development do the work instead of me. However, in the interest of science, I may try out the multiple 30-minute rest periods and reshapings like you and the New York Times used in the above recipe just to see if I can tell a difference in the finished results.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »
thanks pizzastriver. you should definitely see a major difference in the dough quality. it will be very elastic, bubbly, and taffy like. try not to incorporate additional flour into the dough when stretching/folding. also, treat the dough gently, those gluten strands are what you want to keep from tearing so bubbles can form nicely. there is a clip on youtube by the user backhomebaker that demonstrates the stretch and fold technique btw.

I already see a difference in the containers after a day, the side profile already has small bubbles. It was very shiny and taffy like, and I was amazed after the 2nd rest, as a ball  in covered bowl, how it smoothed naturally. The next 2 kneads were only 3 mins tops as It felt like it was getting over worked somehow.  The only time I've tried rest periods I was having serious yeast issues and trying Varasano's without starter culture. The ''bad ol' days'', as I call 'em. This is the first real dough that I will cook with 3 rests. You make a good point about not over flouring during the stretch, I'll try it wetter this time. I, as my man Peter teaches, do the 'flour dusting saran wrap' counter rise after fridge. Any thoughts there regarding any affects, if any? I'll find and watch that youtube you speak of. I'm trying all things with this formula to improve it more before moving on to others.

p.s. You really made this without a starter culture at 550 eh? Amazing!  ;D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 11:29:58 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline fazzari

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 01:55:35 AM »
Found a very interesting video on using steam in your home oven...this is a very interesting technique and seems to work in any oven I've used to bake french bread, ciabatta...you can see the fabulous loaves which come from this guy's oven...by the way Koloa, all your stuff looks excellent!!

John

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Koloa's progress with AT
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2009, 03:53:32 PM »
those gluten strands are what you want to keep from tearing so bubbles can form nicely. there is a clip on youtube by the user backhomebaker that demonstrates the stretch and fold technique btw.

Koloa, Hey! So yes I loved the rest periods on the Lehmann dough, but I wanted to confess I can't find this video you speak of. I searched backhomebaker and nothing, and you can't search user names. I googled it and the closest I found found this, ideal for wet doughs, is this the vid you meant??
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8432/latest-video-back-home

I've been doing a 1/4 turn with a more gentle stretch/pull and fold over, but still palms in firmly at the end.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1