Author Topic: NY pizza--my latest test  (Read 3037 times)

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Offline canadave

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NY pizza--my latest test
« on: February 01, 2005, 08:25:46 PM »
Well, I'm back up and running with my oven, so I decided to celebrate by preparing a new type of NY pizza dough recipe, based on some of the good input and suggestions I've seen on the board the last little while.

Here's the deal:

--2 lbs flour (1/4 of it imported genuine Italian "00" pizza flour, the rest high-gluten flour)
--20 oz. cold water
--1 tsp sugar
--1 package (2 1/4 tsp) instant yeast
--2 Tbsp regular olive oil

I did a 5 minute knead in the stand mixer, 5 minutes rest, then 20 minutes kneading again on low in the stand mixer.  The dough emerged a bit sticky (any stickier and it would've been kind of hard to handle), but smooth.  Into the cookie tins and then the fridge.  I'm going to try baking one pizza tomorrow, then one the day after; I'll report back on taste testing.

Dave


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2005, 08:59:17 PM »
Hi CanadaDave,

sounds good !! .... where did ya get the 00 flour by the way ? ye lucky bastid  ;D  ;D

I have yet to find anyone here that sells it.... dang :-)

anyway I look forward to your tests in the name of filling ye belly, urr I mean in the name of science.

sounds good Dave.

Mark
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline canadave

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2005, 10:12:57 PM »
Quote
sounds good !! .... where did ya get the 00 flour by the way ? ye lucky bastid     ;D
Actually, Mark, I got it from a local Italian grocery in Little Italy in Edmonton called the Italian Centre Shop Ltd.  They have a website which I can't seem to find right now, but if you do a search of this forum for "italian centre" you'll find a post where I mentioned the website address.  You might try calling them and seeing if they'll ship some down east ;)  Otherwise, all I can suggest is to find the closest Italian neighbourhood and asking residents where they shop for good food ingredients ;D

Offline canadave

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2005, 03:30:15 PM »
lol....

Well, I just tried making a pizza from my latest test batch of dough.  I let the dough warm up for an hour or so, then grabbed it and started turning it in my hands.  I couldn't turn it fast enough to prevent it from ripping apart in about four seconds!  :o  Wow.  What a mess!

Strangely, when I tried to salvage the dough by quickly picking up the pieces, smooshing them together, and then hand-kneading it for a couple of minutes with a little more flour, it became impossible to stretch!  Finally had to resort to the dreaded rolling pin just to get it stretched out to make a 12" pizza.  What a disaster :(

Steve, you say you didn't have any problems with the 20 minute knead?? 

Then again, maybe it had something to do with the hydration level.  I did notice that the dough felt slightly wetter and stickier than usual on its way out of the mixer.

*sigh* back to the drawing board.....

Dave

Offline pftaylor

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2005, 03:36:56 PM »
Dave,
I have also noticed a tremendous difference in the handling of 00 dough vs KASL. While I have not suffered the major setback you described, it seems that 00 dough requires a different handling procedure which I haven't quite figured out yet. It is very very soft and responded well to a much shorter mixing and fermenting time for me.
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Offline canadave

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2005, 03:46:15 PM »
Hmmmm, thanks for confirming my suspicion...I figured the 00 flour had something to do with it.  I have to say I've never had any luck with 00 flour, but then again I'm probably trying to use it to create things it wasn't designed to create (namely a NY pizza).

Dave

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2005, 03:55:30 PM »
Hi Dave,

don't give up  ;D

One thing thing about pizza, if it turns out not so great, it still tastes good enough to eat, so try and try again.

I'd get some more tips on using this flour, hopefully somebody who uses it all the time can point you in the right direction.

anyway good luck with future batches.  How much did you buy ? enough for several tries ?

Mark
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline DKM

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 11:54:45 AM »
Well, I'm back up and running with my oven, so I decided to celebrate by preparing a new type of NY pizza dough recipe, based on some of the good input and suggestions I've seen on the board the last little while.

Here's the deal:

--2 lbs flour (1/4 of it imported genuine Italian "00" pizza flour, the rest high-gluten flour)
--20 oz. cold water
--1 tsp sugar
--1 package (2 1/4 tsp) instant yeast
--2 Tbsp regular olive oil

I did a 5 minute knead in the stand mixer, 5 minutes rest, then 20 minutes kneading again on low in the stand mixer.  The dough emerged a bit sticky (any stickier and it would've been kind of hard to handle), but smooth.  Into the cookie tins and then the fridge.  I'm going to try baking one pizza tomorrow, then one the day after; I'll report back on taste testing.

Dave

I think this will be my weekend try.

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Gils

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 03:09:13 PM »
lol....

Well, I just tried making a pizza from my latest test batch of dough.  I let the dough warm up for an hour or so, then grabbed it and started turning it in my hands.  I couldn't turn it fast enough to prevent it from ripping apart in about four seconds!  :o  Wow.  What a mess!

Strangely, when I tried to salvage the dough by quickly picking up the pieces, smooshing them together, and then hand-kneading it for a couple of minutes with a little more flour, it became impossible to stretch!  Finally had to resort to the dreaded rolling pin just to get it stretched out to make a 12" pizza.  What a disaster :(



Then again, maybe it had something to do with the hydration level.  I did notice that the dough felt slightly wetter and stickier than usual on its way out of the mixer.

*sigh* back to the drawing board.....

Dave

I am not familiar with 00 flour, but I have a couple of questions and thoughts.

1. when you say ripping apart? I assume this to me the dough was so loose that the weight of it caused to to pull apart to fast?

The stickiness of the dough leads me to believe that the hydration level was in fact a bit high. you should get a tacky feel from your dough but not sticky.  Adding flour would probably be the quick fix to that.

On the stretching problems, I think next time you encounter this you might knead it with more flour till you achieve the consistency and then let it sit again. turn on your oven to 150 and let it warm up a minute or so then shut it off. place the dough bowl with a towel over it and let it sit for about 10 minutes or so.  This allows the gluten network that you worked over, to once again relax so the dough becomes plyable once more. You can do that on the counter as well, though the warm oven aids in the action a bit.   

When you are throwing/stretching dough, and it is a bit tighter than you would like, you can work it a bit and then let it relax a few minutes. Work it and relax it. It might take a bit more time, but saves you having to start over.

Again I am not sure about the 00 flour but I do know this works in general.

Hope it helps

Mike

Offline dinks

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2005, 03:29:33 PM »
CANADAVE:
  Good Afternoon to you.I read your story with much interest. I am not certain if I understood what you said about your bout with your recent pizza dough you prepared.
    I hope you do not mind me mentioning to you 2 things of great importance. If you expierenced a very slack dough after you machine kneaded for 20 minutes that is because you overmixed the dough. In yeasted lean breads (Which pizza dough is) 10 minutes will suffice but only if you are not employing the autolyse technique. If doing same then approx. 8 minutes will suffice. 2 things happen when you over mix, The gluten bonds  become over stretched & break down & being that you are also excessively incorporating oxygen which has a devastating effect on the dough.The result is that the liquids are released from the concoction & this is exactly what happened to your dough.  My friend, 10 minutes is all you need,ie, 2 minutes to have the water, instant yeast ,& flour to become a viable mass, then 4 minutes of kneading then mix in the salt & continue kneading for additional 4 minutes. ( On #2 to #2 1/2  mixer speed.)

   Now then, on the use of Italian  "OO" flour. There is no standard on this flour. In other words each miller will mill it with various strengths. Some at 8% protein... some maybe at 10% protein... maybe some may go as high as 11% protein.    PIZZA  BAGELS  BIALIY'S & FRENCH & ITALIAN BREAD SHOULD ALWAYS BE  MIXED WITH HI- GLUTEN FLOUR. I HOPE THIS HELPS. Have a nice day my friend.
   ~DINKS.


Offline canadave

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2005, 05:06:56 PM »
 
Quote
  I hope you do not mind me mentioning to you 2 things of great importance. If you expierenced a very slack dough after you machine kneaded for 20 minutes that is because you overmixed the dough. In yeasted lean breads (Which pizza dough is) 10 minutes will suffice but only if you are not employing the autolyse technique. If doing same then approx. 8 minutes will suffice. 2 things happen when you over mix, The gluten bonds  become over stretched & break down & being that you are also excessively incorporating oxygen which has a devastating effect on the dough.The result is that the liquids are released from the concoction & this is exactly what happened to your dough.  My friend, 10 minutes is all you need,ie, 2 minutes to have the water, instant yeast ,& flour to become a viable mass, then 4 minutes of kneading then mix in the salt & continue kneading for additional 4 minutes. ( On #2 to #2 1/2  mixer speed.)

Steve, your thoughts? :)

Thanks everybody for the comments...I basically borrowed the long knead idea from Steve and others.  I agree that in the end, the dough turned out way too stretchy.

On a positive note, I did manage to make a fairly tasty pizza using my second of the two dough balls from the test batch.  This dough ball was in the fridge 48 hours instead of only 24, and I also stretched it directly on my pizza peel this time (it was when I tried my normal "droop from my fists and let gravity do the work" method with the first dough ball that I started running into problems).  It wound up tasting quite good, although a tad "unleavened bready", like a piece of matzah.

I still think I'm going to go back to all high-gluten flour; it just seems easier to work with.  And maybe I'll go back to my regular knead time as well (unless Steve or others have a differing opinion?)

Thanks,
Dave

Offline varasano

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2005, 01:30:19 AM »
Hey Guys,

I haven't posted in a while. Super busy.  Steve, I haven't forgotten about the culture, but I just couldn't get to it this week.  I'll get it out before I head out to Vegas on Wed. 

I made a dozen 270g doughs (about 7 lbs) in a single batch in the DLX last night. It was the most ever in a batch for me. I think it was kinda pushing it. The machine was fine, but my lack of experience with those levels threw me a bit.  The dough came out good, but not as smooth as the last batch.  I video taped it so I can post it up when I get a chance to edit some clips.  I'll take some photos of the party tomorrow night and try to post Sunday.

I got a shipment of Bella Rosa from Eschalon. Those are supposed to be their top of the line. I wasn't impressed. The tomatoes had a lot of peel, like they were not processed cleanly.  They were acidic and had that can residue taste you sometimes get.  They weren't horrible, but I won't recommend them in my recipe.  I also opened a $4 can of Sclafani DOP certified San Marzano tomatoes. They were much better than the Eschalon, but not that impressive either.  I'll tell ya, my regular supermarket brand, which is Cento Whole Peeled (from Italy) for $1.85 is better than either of these two. I played with my sauce a bit. I'm going to have very minimalist sauce recipe added to my main page at some point. I usually don't add much, but I'm honing in on a simple formula.

I also got a shipment from MozzNY.com in Brooklyn. I haven't seen the result on the pie yet, but the raw cheese tastes excellent - far, far superior to what I get locally in Atlanta. It cost a fortune to ship though - over $30 to FedEx. They shipped it in Dry ice and styrofoam & it was still cold when it got here. But hopefully this will solve the cheese breakdown problem you see at the very bottom of my recipe page:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

I also got a shipment of King Arthur High Gluten, but I didn't want to make too many changes at once so I just used the Bread Flour again.

I'm ready for the party. I wouldn't even do another one so soon after the last one, but since Marianna is in town all the way from Moscow, I had to do it:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/MariannaB.htm

The last party just 2 weeks ago
http://www.think2020.com/jv/2005_01_21Pizza.htm


Ciao,

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY pizza--my latest test
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2005, 04:25:55 PM »
Dave,

On the face of it, it seems to me that your recipe should work. It may well be that the hydration percent was a bit high (almost 63%), but that can be easily corrected. But, that said, I have learned that whenever 00 flour is involved, you can never know for sure what is going to happen.

Part of the problem is that, as DINKS has pointed out, 00 flour can have different protein content. For example, King Arthur sells a 00 "clone" (which I do not recommend) that has 8.5% protein. On the other end of the spectrum, the Caputo 00 flour has 11.5-12.5% protein. The Bel Aria and Delverde 00 flours fall in between. Some of these 00 flours are made up of "national" (e.g., Italian) flours and some are a blend of national and "foreign" flours, such as the Manitoba flour. All of the above flours are called "00" but there is no way to tell them apart since labeling requirements in Italy are either nonexistent or sketchy at best. To complicate matters further, each brand of 00 flour can have different kneading requirements, with the lowest protein 00 flours requiring anywhere from 20-30 minutes to adequately develop the gluten (because there is so little of it to begin with), to 15 minutes for those 00 flours that start out with higher protein and gluten from the outset.

From my experience in having worked with the different 00 flours over the past few years, trying to use all of these different kinds and brands of 00 flours interchangeably in any given recipe will not produce the same results. I found myself having to come up with a different recipe for each brand. Furthermore, combining the 00 flours with other flours, such as high-gluten flours, adds another dimension to the equation whose outcome cannot be easily predicted. Dom Demarco at DiFara's has been able to successfully combine 00 flour (Delverde) and high-gluten flour (All Trumps) but I think that is because he has developed and mastered a single recipe using only those two flours. If I gave him the Caputo or Bel Aria 00 flours to substitute in his recipe, I suspect he would have to do a fair amount of work to successfully pull off the substitution.

It is for all the above reasons that I tend to stick with only the Bel Aria and Caputo brands and use them in the purist sense--for primarily Neapolitan style pizza doughs and an occasional DiFara type dough. I will leave to others more creative and inventive than I to try to make a NY style dough or other useful hybrid dough using 00 flour.

As for your attempts to salvage your first dough round based on the recipe you posted above, Mike makes some good suggestions in his earlier posting. Tom Lehmann says that one should never try to do what you did because it will result in the gluten regaining its elasticity and becoming almost impossible to handle thereafter. I wondered about this and on one occasion decided purely out of curiosity to re-ball and reshape a dough that was extremely extensible. The ball became so tight and elastic that it took about a half hour of rest to get it to become marginally workable again. It was quite a revelation. I used room temperature to resurrect the dough, but Mike's approach is even better since heat softens the gluten and makes it relax so that it handles better. A dough made with 00 flour is especially receptive to heat, and it that principle, in fact, that I rely on when I make my one-hour 00 pizzas (including the pizzas with eggs).

I don't think you should give up too easily on your recipe. You might lower the hydration percent a few points (remember that Neapolitan doughs based on 00 flour typically have only a 50-53% hydration percent) and you might reduce the knead time as DINKS has suggested. If you can determine what the protein level is for your 00 flour, that should guide you a bit further toward determining how long you should knead (the less protein, the longer you should knead, and vice versa).

Peter
« Last Edit: February 05, 2005, 10:26:04 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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