Cool read

[forzaroma]

This is very interesting to me as I was questioning oven spring and developing gluten as discussed with Chau on another thread.
http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/175-the-stretch-and-fold-method.html

[Tscarborough]

That is what I do, but I only do it once after the bulk fermentation, folding it over itself 7 times.

[forzaroma]

Do you do a cold or room temp ferment?

[Tscarborough]

Both.

[Tscarborough]

I was busy and didn't have time to answer fully.

Sometimes I do cold ferment, 1 to 5 days, sometimes I do 24 hour room temp rise, but in either case, there is an hour or 2 bulk warm rise before balling the dough. I do the stretch and fold after the inital rise and before splitting into doughballs. Here is a video of me doing a 24 hour warm rise, but due to technical difficulties (the batteries died) I only filmed 3 of the 7 stretch and folds.  I also use flour instead of oil on the bench, and thus lower the final hydration to the low 70s.

The dough method works for the kitchen and the WFO, although I do generally brush EVOO onto the crust for the kitchen oven to assist in browning.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZijxqShyew" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZijxqShyew</a>

[Jackie Tran]

Mike if I had a secret to my success this would be it.  Though I'm always looking to improve and try out various other methods, the S & F has always been at the core of my dough making from the very beginning, even before the popularity of the tartine bread took off here.  It is such a valuable technique to me.  Not only is it important to do but also when you do it throughout the process of fermentation makes a big difference as well.   And there is such a thing as too many stretch and folds, so you still have to learn how to read the dough.  But this is easy b/c if you do too many or over develop the gluten, the dough can be hard to open and may even tear.  As far as I know it is the best way to develop the proper amount of gluten without over doing it as can be more easily done by mixing with a machine.  

Chau

[scott r]

Right on chau, I feel like you wrote this post for me.   I have been doing lots of trials lately and last night was exactly like you described.   I wanted to try extra stretch and folds beyond what I usually do (four max), and I ended up with a hard to stretch 68% hydration dough that tore.   I actually think its the first dough I have ever made that ripped!     I had done 8 stretch and folds (ouch!).   

[pennygirl]

basically my two favorite mentors on the site discussing a topic that consumes too many minutes of the day at this stage in my learning. And that is the elasticity and extensability balance from doing stretch and folds. I'm doing a four-way version once the dough is laid out flat. I don't use any flour or or oil though. I can't believe what an aid a small amount of water can be on the hands and dough knife.

Haven't used my Bosch in couple weeks but when I am using it, sometimes the dough tends to get hung up around the center shaft and after a certain point...(not long at all actually, maybe 6-8min?) I am seeing the dough almost tearing? In the beginning, I was thinking that was just a stage in developing gluten but now I am thinking that action is undesirable. Chau or Scott, have either of you guys noticed a tearing threshold with the Bosch? 

If tearing exists with the Bosch, it probably speaks to the machine's efficiency in how fast it develops the dough. I might have to be more careful.


Zak

[forzaroma]

I have used it before but not as many as i could should use, but the next batch i will use it more. So it is done while bulk fermentation which when i have done it in the past did give me the best results.

[Jackie Tran]

Zak, Scott r would be able to answer your question more completely.  My trials with the Bosch are very limited.  I can say that when I notice the dough getting tied up in the center shaft of the bosch is when my dough is well hydrated and a relatively wet dough.  As I knead this dough longer and the gluten starts to develop and strengthen, the dough will begin to dry up a bit and eventually it will come down into the bottom of othe bowl instead of getting hung up in the center.  

A tearing threshold if I think I understand what you are referring to would be different for each batch of dough depending on the type of flour and hydration.    I do know that the longer I knead dough in the bosch, the tighter the crumb structure becomes and the finished crumb tends to dry up a bit quicker if not eaten right away.  

As far as doing too many S & F's, I like to cite a few of the pizzas I made as examples of too many S & Fs.

Reply #28
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10734.20.html

Here's another example of a dough that I reballed after it was cold fermented which lead to overgluten development.  

reply #581

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.580.html

You can read a few posts back if you want.  This was an experimental dough that I made following Norma & Peter's Lehman dough with preferment recipe.  

Balling after cold fermentation is generally undesireable but not always.  It just really depends on where the gluten development is at that time.  If the dough is too slack and will benefit from a quick reball, then it's justifiable and needed.  If not, then it will do more harm than good.  But it's through these mistakes that teach us the difference between when it's not enough and too much.  No amount of trying different recipes or techniques will teach us this.  If anything it will only serve to cloud the picture and make learning slower.   For anyone wanting to improve their ovenspring, it's really important to focus on gluten development and hydration ratios.  A balance of those 2 factors and the baking environment will get you there.

Here is another post I made awhile back about working with high hydration doughs and gluten development.  You may find it an interesting read if you haven't seen it before.

Reply #134

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11962.120

Chau

[scott r]

Haven't used my Bosch in couple weeks but when I am using it, sometimes the dough tends to get hung up around the center shaft and after a certain point...(not long at all actually, maybe 6-8min?) I am seeing the dough almost tearing? In the beginning, I was thinking that was just a stage in developing gluten but now I am thinking that action is undesirable. Chau or Scott, have either of you guys noticed a tearing threshold with the Bosch?  

If tearing exists with the Bosch, it probably speaks to the machine's efficiency in how fast it develops the dough. I might have to be more careful.


Zak

zak,   I haven't noticed that going beyond 6-8 minutes in the bosch can hurt the dough, especially with a wetter dough.   I had some truly amazing pies made by widespread pizza that were mixed for 10 minutes in his bosch, and they were not high hydration doughs.   I often mix 70% hydration doughs for a total of 12 minutes, plus roughly four stretch and folds. At 60% hydration 5-8 minutes plus one or two stretch and folds seems about right.  Of course this all depends on what flour I am using, with high gluten flours taking less time, and 00 or all purpose flours taking the most time to mix.  Still, every now and then I have a batch that just needs more mix time, and I end up doing a little extra kneading as I am making my dough balls.

As far as the tearing goes...  I learned early on not to pay much attention to what is going on in the bosch bowl either visually or by feel.   Even if its not pretty during the mix, the end product seems to be very high quality.   With my other mixers (an electrolux dlx, a kitchen aid, and a santos fork mixer) It was easier to judge how well developed the gluten was as it was mixing, but the bosch is definitely different. When I turn my bosch off the dough is never smooth, and it often seems a little shaggy.   I find that my dough needs a little time to sit before it can be judged for gluten development.  I have noticed that a 20 minute or so autolyse (can be less with wetter doughs)  can really help the bosch to mix better, and breaking the mix up into two parts with a rest in between is also a good idea.