Author Topic: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure  (Read 8021 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 09:53:50 PM »
Joe,

The dough is definitely overhydrated (too much water for the amount of flour). If you used a digital scale and weighed the flour and water correctly, the dough should have been much dryer. I suggest that you gradually add and knead in more flour until the dough forms a rough yet cohesive dough mass. You should then do a final knead by hand for about 30 seconds to a minute, and then shape the dough into a round ball. I would then divide the dough ball into three smaller, equal pieces to got into their respective dough storage containers. If you look at the series of photos starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19565.html#msg19565, you will get a better idea as to what the dough looks like at the different stages.

I don't recognize your particular stand mixer. What brand is it? Also, what kind and brand of flour did you use?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:00:13 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 09:58:36 PM »
Cuisinart SM-55.  So the dough hook should move through the mass, without the mass climbing the dough hook?  I will begin adding flour. 

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2009, 10:08:28 PM »
King Arthur Bread.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2009, 10:11:04 PM »
Joe,

I edited my last post as you were posting. I use a KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook and it is common for the dough to want to climb up the C-hook. As I discussed in Reply 8 that I referenced earlier, I use a thin-bladed spatula to help reorient the dough in the bowl to keep the dough from riding up the C-hook too much. I also stop the machine if necessary and use my hands to reorient the dough ball. Most people who own basic machines like mine usually come up with their own unique methods to deal with these kinds of problems.

When you are done with the dough, you should weigh it. If it is greater than the amount of dough listed in the dough formulation you used, you should scale it back to the weight of the dough in the table. Weighing the final dough should also tell you whether you misweighed either the flour or the water.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2009, 10:18:26 PM »
The dough is 1406 grams.  1375 in the table - I've added both a little water and a few tablespoons of flour - the numbers all make sense.  The dough feels a little sticky to the touch.  Should there be enough flour for it to feel smooth, regardless of how much it climbs the hook?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2009, 10:30:07 PM »
Joe,

I like the finished dough to be a bit on the tacky side. It might be sticky coming out of the mixer bowl but that stickiness usually diminishes and disappears as you do the final hand kneading. I would only dust the outer surface of the dough ball with bench flour if it is still sticky after the hand kneading. Or else do the final hand kneading on a lightly floured work surface.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2009, 10:36:58 PM »
Roger that; hand kneaded on a wooden cutting board; just sticks slightly.  Will cut into the 458.2 g portions and refridgerate.  Is that it?  Is it o.k.?  Does the $300 mixer that I bought just to make pizza basically do nothing whatsoever?

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2009, 10:45:25 PM »
The dough is very tough and elastic.  Pictures:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2009, 10:47:27 PM »
Thought I got more pix in there. 

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2009, 10:49:03 PM »
I guess what I'm wondering about is whether the dough got enough machine kneading, when all it did was ride up the hook.  Should it get more hand kneading?  What changes in the physical appearance of the dough are associated with proper kneading? 


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2009, 11:07:26 PM »
Joe,

At a nominal 63% hydration, the dough should be elastic after the hand kneading, because of the gluten development, but still be supple and not tough. However, even if your hydration was lowered by adding more flour, I think the dough balls should still be OK. Professionals usually use around 56%-59% hydration for similar doughs. It is hard to generalize about surface appearance. You will find descriptions for the finished dough like "smooth" and "satiny" but often my dough balls have a slightly dimpled cottage cheese surface appearance. The dough balls usually smooth out during the fermentation period. The best way to see the range of surface appearances is to make a dough completely by hand and watch the changes with increased kneading.

I am not familiar with the Cuisinart stand mixer or the types of attachments that come with that mixer, although my recollection is that there are a few members who have Cuisinart stand mixers and use them to make pizza dough, apparently with good results. I assume that there is normal mixing and kneading even if some of the dough rides the dough hook. The fallback solution when the dough rides the dough hook too much is to use your hands and do hand kneading to compensate for the occasional adequacies of the mixer. Ultimately, with practice and experience, you will learn the ins and outs of your particular mixer. However, I am a bit surprised at how your dough was wetter than what I am used to. I have made Lehmann doughs with my KitchenAid stand mixer, my Cuisinart food processor, my Zojirushi bread maker, and by hand, and I have not experienced major hydration differences when using all of these methods.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 11:10:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2009, 11:14:43 PM »
It sounds as though you think I may be o.k..  Do the pictures of the "finished" dough tell you anything?  Can you verbalize what you saw in the earlier pictures that led you to describe the dough as over-hydrated?  That would be very useful for me, I imagine.  The dough is in the fridge, and I'm about required to turn in.  Thank you so much; if not for your input, the dough and the mixer could well be in the trash now. 

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2009, 11:32:09 PM »
Joe,

Your finished dough looks to be a bit on the dry side but, as I noted, I think it should be OK with the lower hydration. I would proceed with your original plan to use the three dough balls a day apart. You should learn a lot from that experience.

The dough as you showed it in the mixer reminded me of doughs that I have made with a hydration of around 68%. A good example is the photo at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55474.html#msg55474. The dough on the scale looks less hydrated than it did while it was in the mixer bowl. I literally poured and scraped the dough out of the mixer bowl onto my scale.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2009, 11:40:42 PM »
That's good to know.  I need some patience, and also the data that comes from taking the dough all the way through the process.  Thanks again, Peter, and good night.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2009, 06:34:32 AM »
Dough has risen considerably in the fridge.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2009, 10:02:12 AM »
Dough has risen considerably in the fridge.

Joe,

I don't believe you mentioned it before but did you take the temperature of the water that you used to make the dough? And did you note the finished dough temperature?

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2009, 02:51:45 PM »
I did not take the temperature of the water.  It must have been close to ambient (75 F), because it sat out for quite a while before I began.  I did not take the temperature of the completed dough.  I did notice that it felt very slightly warm as I was handling it.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2009, 03:14:44 PM »
Joe,

Ideally, in a home setting, for a dough that is to be cold fermented you want to have a finished dough temperature in the range of about 70-75 degrees F. Usually, the way that that finished dough temperature is achieved is by controlling the water temperature, which is much easier to adjust than adjusting room temperature or flour temperature (I assume that the friction factor of your mixer remains fixed). If your dough felt warm to the touch, you were perhaps above the range mentioned above. Temperature is a powerful force. If too high, even with the small amount of yeast you used (0.21%), the dough can ferment quite rapidly. The usual practical effect of the faster fermentation rate is that the window of usability of the dough will be shortened. In your case, you might poke the dough balls with your finger once in a while to see if the dough balls are still firm to the touch. If the dough is still firm, you should be OK. If it gets really billowy and soft and with a lot of gas, that is a sign that you may want to think about using the dough. There are no absolute rules on these matters. Different doughs and different dough formulations behave differently.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
Pictures.

I'd say it seemed tough, but there was some gas that yielded when poked.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2009, 03:38:07 PM »
Joe,

Because the Lehmann dough is a low-yeast dough, it can tolerate a fairly long fermentation time compared to higher-yeasted doughs. From the profusion of bubbles at the bottom of the container, I would say that your dough is fermenting at a faster rate than I normally see. However, the top of the dough looks quite normal. If the depression you create by pressing your finger into the dough does not disappear, that is a sign that the dough is not yet ready.

At this point, I would stick with your plan to use the three dough balls spaced apart by a day.

Peter


 

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