Author Topic: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure  (Read 8416 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2009, 10:30:07 PM »
Joe,

I like the finished dough to be a bit on the tacky side. It might be sticky coming out of the mixer bowl but that stickiness usually diminishes and disappears as you do the final hand kneading. I would only dust the outer surface of the dough ball with bench flour if it is still sticky after the hand kneading. Or else do the final hand kneading on a lightly floured work surface.

Peter


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2009, 10:36:58 PM »
Roger that; hand kneaded on a wooden cutting board; just sticks slightly.  Will cut into the 458.2 g portions and refridgerate.  Is that it?  Is it o.k.?  Does the $300 mixer that I bought just to make pizza basically do nothing whatsoever?

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2009, 10:45:25 PM »
The dough is very tough and elastic.  Pictures:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2009, 10:47:27 PM »
Thought I got more pix in there. 

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2009, 10:49:03 PM »
I guess what I'm wondering about is whether the dough got enough machine kneading, when all it did was ride up the hook.  Should it get more hand kneading?  What changes in the physical appearance of the dough are associated with proper kneading? 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2009, 11:07:26 PM »
Joe,

At a nominal 63% hydration, the dough should be elastic after the hand kneading, because of the gluten development, but still be supple and not tough. However, even if your hydration was lowered by adding more flour, I think the dough balls should still be OK. Professionals usually use around 56%-59% hydration for similar doughs. It is hard to generalize about surface appearance. You will find descriptions for the finished dough like "smooth" and "satiny" but often my dough balls have a slightly dimpled cottage cheese surface appearance. The dough balls usually smooth out during the fermentation period. The best way to see the range of surface appearances is to make a dough completely by hand and watch the changes with increased kneading.

I am not familiar with the Cuisinart stand mixer or the types of attachments that come with that mixer, although my recollection is that there are a few members who have Cuisinart stand mixers and use them to make pizza dough, apparently with good results. I assume that there is normal mixing and kneading even if some of the dough rides the dough hook. The fallback solution when the dough rides the dough hook too much is to use your hands and do hand kneading to compensate for the occasional adequacies of the mixer. Ultimately, with practice and experience, you will learn the ins and outs of your particular mixer. However, I am a bit surprised at how your dough was wetter than what I am used to. I have made Lehmann doughs with my KitchenAid stand mixer, my Cuisinart food processor, my Zojirushi bread maker, and by hand, and I have not experienced major hydration differences when using all of these methods.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 11:10:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2009, 11:14:43 PM »
It sounds as though you think I may be o.k..  Do the pictures of the "finished" dough tell you anything?  Can you verbalize what you saw in the earlier pictures that led you to describe the dough as over-hydrated?  That would be very useful for me, I imagine.  The dough is in the fridge, and I'm about required to turn in.  Thank you so much; if not for your input, the dough and the mixer could well be in the trash now. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2009, 11:32:09 PM »
Joe,

Your finished dough looks to be a bit on the dry side but, as I noted, I think it should be OK with the lower hydration. I would proceed with your original plan to use the three dough balls a day apart. You should learn a lot from that experience.

The dough as you showed it in the mixer reminded me of doughs that I have made with a hydration of around 68%. A good example is the photo at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55474.html#msg55474. The dough on the scale looks less hydrated than it did while it was in the mixer bowl. I literally poured and scraped the dough out of the mixer bowl onto my scale.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2009, 11:40:42 PM »
That's good to know.  I need some patience, and also the data that comes from taking the dough all the way through the process.  Thanks again, Peter, and good night.


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2009, 06:34:32 AM »
Dough has risen considerably in the fridge.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2009, 10:02:12 AM »
Dough has risen considerably in the fridge.

Joe,

I don't believe you mentioned it before but did you take the temperature of the water that you used to make the dough? And did you note the finished dough temperature?

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2009, 02:51:45 PM »
I did not take the temperature of the water.  It must have been close to ambient (75 F), because it sat out for quite a while before I began.  I did not take the temperature of the completed dough.  I did notice that it felt very slightly warm as I was handling it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2009, 03:14:44 PM »
Joe,

Ideally, in a home setting, for a dough that is to be cold fermented you want to have a finished dough temperature in the range of about 70-75 degrees F. Usually, the way that that finished dough temperature is achieved is by controlling the water temperature, which is much easier to adjust than adjusting room temperature or flour temperature (I assume that the friction factor of your mixer remains fixed). If your dough felt warm to the touch, you were perhaps above the range mentioned above. Temperature is a powerful force. If too high, even with the small amount of yeast you used (0.21%), the dough can ferment quite rapidly. The usual practical effect of the faster fermentation rate is that the window of usability of the dough will be shortened. In your case, you might poke the dough balls with your finger once in a while to see if the dough balls are still firm to the touch. If the dough is still firm, you should be OK. If it gets really billowy and soft and with a lot of gas, that is a sign that you may want to think about using the dough. There are no absolute rules on these matters. Different doughs and different dough formulations behave differently.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
Pictures.

I'd say it seemed tough, but there was some gas that yielded when poked.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2009, 03:38:07 PM »
Joe,

Because the Lehmann dough is a low-yeast dough, it can tolerate a fairly long fermentation time compared to higher-yeasted doughs. From the profusion of bubbles at the bottom of the container, I would say that your dough is fermenting at a faster rate than I normally see. However, the top of the dough looks quite normal. If the depression you create by pressing your finger into the dough does not disappear, that is a sign that the dough is not yet ready.

At this point, I would stick with your plan to use the three dough balls spaced apart by a day.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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I'm going in
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2009, 07:53:29 PM »
Temp is around 685.  Would love if I could get a ball park time.

I don't think anyone is going to like this dough.  It's been out of the fridge for 2.5 hr; it's huge:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2009, 08:23:17 PM »
Joe,

Just keep going. That's how you learn.

Here is a photo of a dough that I made and that turned out well: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652.

Peter


Offline JConk007

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2009, 10:18:28 PM »
You Go Joe,
As peter says, keep on trying.  Great thread here for everyone. The three day, three dough thing is perfect to gain in some good knowlwdge and with Peters help, and it may take a few tries, but you will nail it.  Many of my doughs look like the one you show and come out just fine.
Waiting to hear
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2009, 11:09:29 PM »
Stretching out the dough was difficult.  It was elastic.  I think everybody says elastic, like it's a good thing.  But elastic to me means that you stretch it out, and it pulls itself back.  Put a couple of holes in the body; couldn't get it round, or nearly 14".  Hit it with flour several times to keep it from sticking to a wooden cutting board.  Finally gave up, and rolled it back into a ball.  I was struggling with the belief that the dough might be overfermented, and all that I had read that one ought to work quickly.  It was a little better the second time.  Maybe it would have gotten even better with even more time; we won't know.  Had some success in holding the dough up and letting it stretch itself out.  Settled on this:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2009, 11:12:57 PM »
The oven - a Big Green Egg (that's another whole issue) lost temperature down to about 640.  Here's a peek; maybe at about 2:30.  The martinis helped with some aspects, but not in keeping detailed notes.  I felt like a lot was going on, because the gasket on the Egg was destroyed by these conditions.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:28:54 PM by duegatti »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2009, 11:15:40 PM »
You get to watch, if you're careful, which is good.  As soon as the top looked like it was in the ball park, I had to go in for a look at the bottom.  I had read about burned bottoms under these conditions, and this is indeed what happened:

Doesn't look too bad from the top. 


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2009, 11:20:30 PM »
There's no way I'm throwing this thing out.  So I eat it.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2009, 11:23:06 PM »
Considering how burned it is, it's not bad at all.  It's chewy - and that's something that I'm after.  I want everything chewy.  Al dente, if you will.  I'd like to get the cheeze that way.  But I'm going to worry about that later.  I'm hoping some of these detail shots can allow for expert analysis of the results, but so far these pictures don't look very good.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2009, 11:24:49 PM »
Shots 05 and 06 ought to be good for diagnosis.  Let's see what else we have.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2009, 11:26:52 PM »
The occassion called for some high speed cleaning: