Author Topic: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure  (Read 7420 times)

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Offline duegatti

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I'm going in
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2009, 07:53:29 PM »
Temp is around 685.  Would love if I could get a ball park time.

I don't think anyone is going to like this dough.  It's been out of the fridge for 2.5 hr; it's huge:


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2009, 08:23:17 PM »
Joe,

Just keep going. That's how you learn.

Here is a photo of a dough that I made and that turned out well: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2009, 10:18:28 PM »
You Go Joe,
As peter says, keep on trying.  Great thread here for everyone. The three day, three dough thing is perfect to gain in some good knowlwdge and with Peters help, and it may take a few tries, but you will nail it.  Many of my doughs look like the one you show and come out just fine.
Waiting to hear
John
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Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2009, 11:09:29 PM »
Stretching out the dough was difficult.  It was elastic.  I think everybody says elastic, like it's a good thing.  But elastic to me means that you stretch it out, and it pulls itself back.  Put a couple of holes in the body; couldn't get it round, or nearly 14".  Hit it with flour several times to keep it from sticking to a wooden cutting board.  Finally gave up, and rolled it back into a ball.  I was struggling with the belief that the dough might be overfermented, and all that I had read that one ought to work quickly.  It was a little better the second time.  Maybe it would have gotten even better with even more time; we won't know.  Had some success in holding the dough up and letting it stretch itself out.  Settled on this:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2009, 11:12:57 PM »
The oven - a Big Green Egg (that's another whole issue) lost temperature down to about 640.  Here's a peek; maybe at about 2:30.  The martinis helped with some aspects, but not in keeping detailed notes.  I felt like a lot was going on, because the gasket on the Egg was destroyed by these conditions.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:28:54 PM by duegatti »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2009, 11:15:40 PM »
You get to watch, if you're careful, which is good.  As soon as the top looked like it was in the ball park, I had to go in for a look at the bottom.  I had read about burned bottoms under these conditions, and this is indeed what happened:

Doesn't look too bad from the top. 


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2009, 11:20:30 PM »
There's no way I'm throwing this thing out.  So I eat it.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2009, 11:23:06 PM »
Considering how burned it is, it's not bad at all.  It's chewy - and that's something that I'm after.  I want everything chewy.  Al dente, if you will.  I'd like to get the cheeze that way.  But I'm going to worry about that later.  I'm hoping some of these detail shots can allow for expert analysis of the results, but so far these pictures don't look very good.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2009, 11:24:49 PM »
Shots 05 and 06 ought to be good for diagnosis.  Let's see what else we have.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2009, 11:26:52 PM »
The occassion called for some high speed cleaning:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2009, 11:28:00 PM »
Of greatest concern to me, perhaps unnecessarily - why was the dough so difficult to stretch out?  The burned bottom, and destroyed gaskets - those are Egg problems that I need to work out. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2009, 07:53:23 AM »
Joe,

From your earlier photos, the dough shouldn't have been elastic in my opinion. By any chance, did you re-knead, re-shape or re-ball the dough ball before shaping and stretching it out to size? That is a very common (maybe even the most common) rookie mistake and will almost always result in an overly elastic and "bucky" dough that resists shaping and stretching without tearing. It is possible to let the dough warm up again, but it can sometimes take a few to several hours for the gluten to relax again so that the dough can be handled again in a more or less normal manner. If you look at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19772.html#msg19772, which is the "newbie" thread that I referenced earlier, you will see a discussion on this point. There are also many other points and tips for newbies in the above thread.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2009, 09:25:44 AM »
I just dropped the dough out of the container onto some flour, and it was very difficult to extend and flatten.  I did note in reply #43 that after a bit, I rolled the dough back up.  This was because it was so non-circular, and had a couple of holes in it.  It did anecdotally seem a little easier to work with from that point on.  Perhaps it was not adequately warm the first time?  Lehmann says 2-3 hours; I began work at 2.5 hr, and the dough warmed in the closed containers, which would probably insulate it somewhat.  In reply #13 of the thread you reference - does that plastic wrap go underneath the ball, or just over the top of it?

Conclusions:

1) use cold water to control final dough temperature; note temperature

2) trust the forumlation by weight; don't make adjustments; understand that dough will climb hook over a wide range of hydrations; work dough off the hook manually; note dough temperature

3) warm dought to 55-60 F; stretch it out without working it


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2009, 09:27:32 AM »
However, I am a bit surprised at how your dough was wetter than what I am used to.
Peter

Recall that I had dumped in a small, unmeasured aliquot of water, thinking that this would "thin" the dough and allow better mixing.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2009, 10:18:47 AM »
I just dropped the dough out of the container onto some flour, and it was very difficult to extend and flatten.  I did note in reply #43 that after a bit, I rolled the dough back up.  This was because it was so non-circular, and had a couple of holes in it.  It did anecdotally seem a little easier to work with from that point on.  Perhaps it was not adequately warm the first time?  Lehmann says 2-3 hours; I began work at 2.5 hr, and the dough warmed in the closed containers, which would probably insulate it somewhat.  In reply #13 of the thread you reference - does that plastic wrap go underneath the ball, or just over the top of it?


Joe,

What do the two remaining dough balls look like? If they are as gassy as your first dough ball, you can punch them down and re-ball them provided there will be enough time for them to rise again before using. That should strengthen the gluten structure in those dough balls. For dough handling and shaping techniques, you might also look at the Gemignani video referenced in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

When I cover dough balls with plastic wrap, it is only the top of the dough ball, not the bottom. Many people just leave the dough balls uncovered but that can result in a thin "crust" forming on the top surface. If that happens, you can use the dry top surface as the bottom of the skin, which can yield a more crispy bottom crust.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2009, 11:23:03 AM »
The others are similar - lots of bubbles on the bottom; smooth top.  Temperature is 40 - 41 F.  The one that I pushed on yesterday is lower than the one that I didn't touch.  My schedule will limit me with respect to the disposition of these balls.  I may simply be cooking one late tonight, monitoring its temperature. 

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2009, 02:14:46 PM »
D,
Well I am no green egg pro, but I believe I clearly see a high temp at the bottom stone, and perhaps no top stone? Your pie looks like it should have been taken out earlier, but the top never browned and the cheese didn't really melt. Seemingly these top stones are key when using like ovens, and the gaskets blow and need to be replaced with something else, also common from what I've read. Here's my pal RS's thread on this, he mentions replacing the stock gasket on page 2, and you might find some good pointers overall.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8334.0.html

You're good having the mixer, it was not $300 poorly spent. You can knead more effectively, make higher hydration doughs, make bigger batches, all sorts of good things that I can't do easily if at all hand kneading. What it comes down to, aside from learning to use mixer right, is getting a feel for the dough. This dough looked to me like it needed more kneading and better forming in early stage pics. As it climbed the hook and all I'd guess it didn't knead well, or for long, in mixer. (The great Jeff Varasano makes a point to always start with wet ingredients and add flour slowly to avoid this climbing, for what it's worth.) Once you then re-balled it after warm rise, as it tore, that was it. Hard to get a good result after that. Trying to repair the tear is the best you can do. I'm surprised you got it to re-stretch right away, frankly, so hats off.

A tight ball, of properly kneaded dough, going into container is key.
Here's a couple useful vids on that, as I think some hand kneading at the end is always a good idea, even for mixer users. I stretch a bit before folding over as well, but here's the kneading method.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KX4KFBj5w&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KX4KFBj5w&amp;feature=related</a>


How to make a good ball, and I also slap the top down every few turns. Not hard, but enough to really make it tight.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3vUSCR-_uQ&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=33A3FDE1840AE246&amp;index=4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3vUSCR-_uQ&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=33A3FDE1840AE246&amp;index=4</a>


Also when you take it out of fridge put ball on flour dusted board to rest. Use this same rolling method in video 2, no slaps on top though, to ensure roundness. Dust top and saran wrap it loosely, as Peter said. It's best.

Hope it helped, just keep at it, it all comes into place.  :chef:
J.





.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 02:52:18 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2009, 05:09:37 PM »
Joe,

Since I have a stand mixer, albeit one that is not particularly good at making a high-quality, robust dough, I try to use it as much as possible to make the dough. Usually, I try to limit the hand kneading of the dough once it comes out of the mixer bowl to about 30 seconds to a minute, mainly to be sure that the dough has the right "feel" and to shape it into a round ball. I personally am an advocate of slightly underkneading the dough and letting the biochemical activity do the bulk of the development of the gluten. I do not attempt to work the dough to the point where it will pass the windowpane or gluten window test. I would do that if I were making bread dough but not pizza dough. The notion of slightly underkneading the dough is the basic philosophy of pizza dough preparation that is advocated by Tom Lehmann and Evelyne Slomon and others whose professional grounding is mainly in pizza dough rather than bread dough. You can get further elaboration on this point at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133 and the links referenced in that post.

The other point I would like to make is that if the hydration of the dough is too low, no amount of hand kneading is likely to help. You will still end up with a tight and stiff dough, and one that is likely to be made worse by the additional kneading, including developing tears and other irregularities in the skin of the dough. I would rather leave the dough as is and take my chances with the biochemical gluten development rather than knead it further. Of course, if I detect that the dough is too dry and stiff while in the mixer bowl, I try to make the adjustments there as much as possible to get the desired final condition of the dough before doing the final 30 seconds to a minute of hand kneading/shaping. This is something you will get a better feel for as you gain experience through practice.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2009, 06:41:58 PM »
Unbelievable; huge difference in spreadability.  Almost round; nearly 14".  Pix to follow.  Have to juggle impaired Egg and dough with multiple personality.  Will just be able to equilibrate stone for 15 -20 minutes.  Egg was very hot a minute ago.

Have also conducted simple Egg configuration mod to cut down on bottom burning.  Pie has not stuck to wooden peel yet.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:48:39 PM by duegatti »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2009, 09:37:14 PM »
Aiming for a warmed dough temperature of 55 - 60, here it is at about an hour.  When Lehmann says 2 - 3 hours, perhaps he is talking about the 25 lb dough recipe.   The egg is lit; now it will be the bottleneck.