Author Topic: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure  (Read 7428 times)

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Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »
This spreads out much, much more easily.  Almost perfect, but I still get that one area where it's dimpled in toward the center of the circle.  You can actually see the same phenomenon on the first pie.  I'm thinking that I can overcome it, but at one point, it's almost as though something sets up elasticity in the dough, and it almost feels like it's going to shrink itself back up.  I'm afraid of this, happy for the huge improvements, and quit while I'm ahead:


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2009, 09:45:28 PM »
It sits on the counter while the Egg equilibrates.  I've read that a pie will stick to a wooden peel if you leave it there.  I shake it periodically, and it stays loose.  I'm trying to give the Egg as much equilibration as possible without getting into trouble.  After almost 0.5 hr at over 650 degrees, the pie goes in.  Pictures are at about 2 and three minutes.  At three, toppings are beginning to brown.  I'm confident about the configuration change preventing the bottom burning, but if the top is browning, I'll take a look.  And get bad news again; the pie has to come off:



Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2009, 09:48:59 PM »
So - what accounts for the dramatic improvement in the stretchability of the dough?  Had I kneaded the first dough after it was warm - and forgot that I did - rendering it too elastic?  Was the first dough substantially over 60 F, since it warmed for 2.5 hr, and would that even account for the difference?  Did the extra day of cold rise have this effect (even though the dough did not change much in physical appearance)?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2009, 10:11:47 PM »
Joe,

No doubt the longer fermentation time of the second dough ball gave the enzymes more time to work on the gluten and soften it, but your first dough ball was also farther along in the fermentation process than normal, most likely because the finished dough temperature was on the high side. With the small amount of yeast you used, it would have taken a really warm dough to ferment as quickly as your photos of the first dough ball showed.

A warm dough will also be easier to work with than a colder dough. I don't know where you live, but if it is a part of the country where temperatures have been rising, it would be normal for the dough to warm up fairly quickly over a period of 2 1/2 hours. That would also make the dough handle more easily. The only explanation that I can adduce from what you reported on the first dough ball is that you reworked the first dough ball in some fashion and that is what led to the elasticity. A really warm gassy dough will usually be more prone to extensibility than elasticity.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2009, 04:57:07 PM »
So - what accounts for the dramatic improvement in the stretchability of the dough?  Had I kneaded the first dough after it was warm - and forgot that I did - rendering it too elastic?  Was the first dough substantially over 60 F, since it warmed for 2.5 hr, and would that even account for the difference?  Did the extra day of cold rise have this effect (even though the dough did not change much in physical appearance)?

+1 with what Pete said.

My last few batches I have been really paying attention to the warm up times and doing a few experiments. Without a doubt the long warm up time is a huge key to the dough becoming very easily workable.  I usually make 4 pies at a time so i can learn more in one cooking session than just one, especially since doughs can take a few days before they are ready to use.

Remember the dough is alive, and as it warms up those little yeast in there that have mostly asleep are now starting to warm up and munch away creating alot of little bubbles and starting the stretching for you already as you can see in a 1 hour dough as compared to a 3 hour dough.

I have also noticed the difference in the final texture between the finished pies. I much prefer the longer warm up/rise time pies. They are much easier to work, and to me have a better texture.

P.S.   I will take that last pieoff your hands, I like'em a bit on the done side. ;D
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2009, 11:32:01 AM »
So - are we saying that 55-60 degrees is a minimum threshold, and longer warming toward (common) ambient temperatures is in fact desirable, or is 55-60 a target window that one tries not to go outside of?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2009, 11:51:29 AM »
So - are we saying that 55-60 degrees is a minimum threshold, and longer warming toward (common) ambient temperatures is in fact desirable, or is 55-60 a target window that one tries not to go outside of?

Joe,

I couldn't find a reference to the 55-60 degree range in this thread, but if you are talking about the temperature at which a dough can be used to form a skin and minimize bubbling in the finished crust, the 55-60 degree range is really only a threshhold below which you normally don't want to go. Once a dough ball gets above about 55-60 degrees F, it can just sit there for about another few hours and still be usable (a dough ball using high-gluten flour will hold out a bit longer than one using a lower protein flour). Many members who make several dough balls to be used at a single event and bake the pizzas one at a time will often note that the last dough ball in the series was the best one. Sometimes the time between using the first dough ball and the last dough ball can be four hours, sometimes a bit more.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2009, 12:17:26 PM »
Ah ha.  So the fact that my dough on day one was elastic, with a 2.5 hr warm up (albeit it inside the tupperware) to an unknown temperature, and my dough on day two, with a 1 hr warm up to 59 degree, was extensible, further implicates that the elasticity on day one was due to me working the dough out of the refridgerator.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2009, 12:53:45 PM »
Joe,

Generally speaking, if you make several dough balls from the same dough batch, the older dough balls from a fermentation standpoint will normally be more extensible than younger ones, mainly because of the degradation or softening of the gluten with the passage of time. This assumes that you do not re-knead or re-ball any of the dough balls just before using. Also, different dough formulations can perform differently. Some doughs can be used cold out of the refrigerator without incident but others need a warm-up time. About the only way to know what kind of dough ball you have is to run some tests.

It also helps to watch and monitor temperatures, especially finished dough temperatures. If they are out of whack, the chemistry and performance of the doughs will be different, making it difficult to do meaningful comparisons from one batch to another. Of all the temperatures, I think the finished dough temperature is the most important. Since the most effective way to control finished dough temperature is through the water temperature, that makes water temperature vitally important. Room temperatures will always vary, at least in a non-laboratory setting such as in a home, so warm-up times will vary quite considerably over the course of a year. If you were Papa John's making dough balls for twice-a-week delivery to a few thousand stores, you would have a temperature and humidity controlled facility to make the dough balls. And, I can assure you, they measure everything they do, with manuals and charts and everything else. If they don't do that, dough balls will vary all over the place. Of course, in a home setting, the worst that will happen is that you lose a few dough balls or the pizzas aren't as good as you'd like. But that would be intolerable at a place like Papa John's. In my own case, I try to think like the professionals. Once you internalize the procedures, it becomes a habit.

Peter

Offline austinstrickland

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2009, 07:17:24 PM »
Thanks for the pictures dueggatti


Offline austinstrickland

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2009, 07:18:57 PM »
They seem really good..