Author Topic: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story  (Read 437 times)

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Online Johnny the Gent

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Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« on: April 11, 2014, 04:12:00 PM »
Today, for the first time in a long time I tried a slice of Domino's (margherita, to be exact) from a franchise here in Belo Horizonte, Brazil.

One of our interns brought some leftovers today, and as she'd tried my pies before and knows I'm a pizza nut inevitably we chatted pizza. As it turns out she doen't like "brazilian style" pizza dough, and prefers Domino's over anything available locally.

Here's what I noticed from the slice I had: light, golden brown rim, with faint blistering perceivable through the heavy corn-meal dusting.  Undercarriage coloration was the same, with visible screen crosshatch markings...Tight, dense crumb (bready), soft, more sweet (slightly) than salty. I kinda liked it. I think. Sauce was robust in flavor, and somewhat thick. Cheese was unremarkable.

So, because I do enjoy a challenge and every now and then I like to experiment - I'll be setting out to recreate roughly the same style pie.  I would really like to show up to work with an entire pie for her, because she deserves it.

I'm not set on doing anything serious like a 100% reverse engineering effort, I'd like to simply be in the ballpark, and have some fun doing it. Very happy that I'll be able to consult some good info here to help guide my efforts.

Well, I'll probably start out with a straightforward direct dough, with about 3% sugar, and oil,milk and maybe even some egg. I'll post results here.

Later, and have a great weekend everybody!
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Online Johnny the Gent

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 09:49:49 AM »
Dough was prepared Friday evening - pie baked this Sunday am.

A roughly 14" pie topped with sweet onions, chopped ham and fresh mushrooms. Out of the oven, a light sprinkling of dried oregano.

So I tried a slice...not bad. It's in the ballpark  ;) 

But for my taste buds this morning, something was missing...some heat >:D! A diced, oil-cured pimenta malaguetta did the trick.
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Offline waynesize

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 12:14:05 PM »
Sorry Johnny, that looks way too good to be a Domino's pizza! You will have to tone it down a bit.

Wayne

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2014, 06:12:03 PM »
Wayne, I've got another couple doughballs (one in the fridge and one in the freezer), next time I'll have to leave a thicker rim.

Thanks for the props - I'll tone it down for the next effort  :-D  ;D

J
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 08:30:07 PM »
J,

I know that you are not striving for authenticity, but you can see the ingredients that Domino's uses for it pizza dough, including the hand tossed dough, at https://order.dominos.com/en/pages/content/nutritional/ingredients.jsp. As you can see there, the dough uses a fairly pedestrian unmalted but enriched flour that is supplemented with vital wheat gluten. In the past, Domino's has insisted that its dough is not frozen. However, as you will note in the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/analysing-dominos-crust.10174/, where a member was trying to replicate a Domino's crust, Tom Lehmann says that the Domino's dough is frozen.

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 10:21:53 AM »
Peter - I was unable to open the link (using Safari and Google Chrome). I did find Tom Lehmann's comments interesting. Thanks for sharing!

Well, I defrosted one of my "Domino's inspired doughballs" last night. The dough was in the fridge for 2 days when I realized that I wouldn't be baking anytime soon - so I froze it for later use.  About 2 hours out of the freezer, the doughball was defrosted, but still cold in the center - but that didn't stop me from getting started. It was easy to open. For this bake I used a large, perforated aluminum pizza baking pan which is about 14" across.  I lightly oiled it, then opened the doughball using cornmeal on my work surface. 

Pie baked on the middle rack of my gas oven which was preheated to 290 degrees celsius for a measly 15 minutes. Bake time around 12 minutes.

Topped with diced pepperoni, fresh mushrooms.  And they say there's a first time for everything: I brushed some butter on the cornicione before putting the pie in the oven.

My thoughts:  The dough had very good flavor, was crisp and tender at the same time - very light as I recall.  I wouldn't hesitate to prepare some of these doughballs for a kids pizza party, or to leave in "standby" mode in the freezer when the urge hits for an "easy"pie, without the need of preheating a stone, using a peel, etc.  In other words, it's a pie that has its applications - especially when used with the perforated aluminum baking pan. 

Enough ranting, cheers! And some pics.
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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 01:09:20 PM »
J,

The link works for me so I am not sure where the problem lies. However, I found this document that contains the same information: http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. Numbered page 3 has the pizza ingredients information.

BTW, your pizzas look great. Can you tell me what dough recipe you used?

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 07:27:24 PM »
J,

The link works for me so I am not sure where the problem lies. However, I found this document that contains the same information: http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. Numbered page 3 has the pizza ingredients information.

BTW, your pizzas look great. Can you tell me what dough recipe you used?

Peter


Thanks Peter. The recipe I used was:

100% AP flour (9.8% protein)
48% water
5% whole milk
4% soybean oil
3% sugar
1.7% salt
1% VWG
1% fresh CY

I made 3 doughballs ~ 450 grams each, with one "peewee" weighting around 280 gms.

1. Mix water, milk, sugar, salt together. Whisk in oil. I added a handful of flour to give the oil something to cling to, therefore "preventing" separation. Whisked a bit more. Whisk in CY.
2. Whisk together VWG and AP flour.
3. Add mixture from step 1 into the flour, using the back of a wooden spoon to mix.
4.  Knead until smooth - folding dough onto itself with quarter turns.
5. I left the entire dough mass ferment in the fridge for 8 hours, before dividing and balling.
6. Dough can be left to ferment in the fridge for another 16 hours or so or frozen for later use ( I tried both and they came out great).


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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 08:44:37 PM »
J,

Thank you.

What follows is a pretty quick analysis but based on a dough ball weight of 450 grams, I believe your dough formulation looks like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (48%):
CY (1%):
Salt (1.70%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Sugar (3%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (1%):
Milk (fresh) (5%):
Total (163.7%):
274.89 g  |  9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs
131.95 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
2.75 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs |
4.67 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
8.25 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
2.75 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.74 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
450 g | 15.87 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Overall, but for the fact that you used whole milk in lieu of whey, the pecking order of your formulation looks to be about right.

If we take the water content of the milk into account, and add the vital wheat gluten to the flour, the "true" hydration is about 51.9%. Adding in the "wetness" contribution of the 4% oil, the "effective" hydration is around 55.9%. That might be a few percent on the low side for an all-purpose flour. Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, and assuming a typical protein content of about 67% for the vital wheat gluten, I estimate that the protein content of the all-purpose flour/vital wheat gluten blend is around 10.2%.

From the Domino's nutrition document at https://order.dominos.com/en/assets/derived/pdf/DominosNutritionGuide.pdf, it looks like your 450 gram dough ball qualifies as the amount of dough for a medium size pizza (hand tossed). I assume that the Domino's nutrition information is for a baked pizza, not an unbaked one. Either way, it looks like Domino's uses much more oil than sugar by weight.

Did you note the size of your pizza by any chance?

In any event you did well.

Peter


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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 06:30:48 AM »
Peter - thanks for providing the formula for a 450 gm doughball. I made approximately 14" pies with this size doughball. I should mention that only the first pie (in Reply #2) was baked directly on soapstone, the others (including pics in this post) were baked on a lightly oiled perforated aluminum tray. 

Below is a pie topped with some sliced grape tomatoes (big ones) and fresh basil post bake. I tried to capture the crispness of the crust in the pics - by folding a couple of slices. You can also see how the rim was brittle and crisp.  This pie was probably more like 13.5"- as I allowed for a thicker/poofier rim. EVOO brushed on rim before baking. I think the butter allows for more browning than EVOO.  The doughball used for this pie was  frozen. All in all a worthwhile project.
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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2014, 11:17:19 AM »
J,

As best I can tell, the four sizes of Domino's pizzas made using hand tossed skins are small (10"), medium (12"), large (14") and xtra-large (16"). So, your 450-gram dough ball weight as used to make a 14" pizza has a thickness factor of 0.1031. For your 13.5" pizza size, the corresponding thickness factor is 0.111. If we assume that Domino's makes a 12" pizza with a dough ball weighing 450 grams, which is not an unreasonable assumption from what I can tell from the Domino's nutrition information, the corresponding thickness factor would be 0.1403. That is about the value I played around with in the Papa John's clone thread. Extrapolating the 0.1403 thickness factor to the 14" size ("large"), would mean a dough ball weight of 21.6 ounces.

I hadn't noticed it before, but the flour that Domino's uses is quite unusual. The Domino's ingredients list for their hand tossed dough lists the flour ingredients as follows: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Iron, Thiamine, Mononitrate, Niacin, Riboflavin, Folic Acid). That combination is for a flour that is enriched, as Domino's states, but unmalted. Under U.S. FDA labeling rules and regulations, if a flour is bleached, the label is supposed to say that. However, since an ingredients list is not a label, maybe Domino's isn't required to say whether the flour they are using is bleached or unbleached. However, as a good corporate citizen concerned with the nutritional interests of its customers, I would think that Domino's would state in its ingredients list that a flour is bleached if that is in fact the case, much as it indicates that its flour is enriched.

But what is highly unusual about the Domino's dough is that fact that the iron is in the Domino's ingredient list right after the Wheat Flour, not further down the list of enrichments as is almost always the case. I am unaware of any commercial flour that has the same composition as the Domino's flour. And you won't find that flour at the supermarket, at least not in the U.S. My guess is that Domino's uses a flour milled and blended to their specifications.

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 04:02:26 PM »
Following up on my last post, I decided to send an email to Domino's customer service in which I asked if the Domino's nutrition information on its pizzas, including its dough, was for those items as baked. I also asked whether the Domino's dough was fresh or frozen. This is the response I received:

Domino’s prides itself on using quality ingredients.  Domino’s works with highly reputable suppliers to ensure that we get fresh ingredients. Our pizza dough is fresh and never frozen.  Also our nutrition information is based on our products at consumption therefore cooked if cooking is required for the product.

The last sentence is consistent with what the FDA rules and regulations require but I wanted to get confirmation of that fact in Domino's case. As for the fresh or frozen issue, some time ago I called Domino's and asked whether the dough was fresh or frozen, and was told that it was fresh. It was because of Tom Lehmann's comments to the contrary that I decided to ask the question again.

What isn't entirely clear is how Domino's allocates the baked weight of a pizza to the individual components, namely, the crust, sauce, cheese and toppings. I once dissected a defrosted frozen pizza and weighed the individual components (see, for example, Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6112.msg242492;topicseen#msg242492), but I don't know how Domino's would do it for a regular (fresh) pizza.

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
J,

As best I can tell, the four sizes of Domino's pizzas made using hand tossed skins are small (10"), medium (12"), large (14") and xtra-large (16"). So, your 450-gram dough ball weight as used to make a 14" pizza has a thickness factor of 0.1031. For your 13.5" pizza size, the corresponding thickness factor is 0.111. If we assume that Domino's makes a 12" pizza with a dough ball weighing 450 grams, which is not an unreasonable assumption from what I can tell from the Domino's nutrition information, the corresponding thickness factor would be 0.1403. That is about the value I played around with in the Papa John's clone thread. Extrapolating the 0.1403 thickness factor to the 14" size ("large"), would mean a dough ball weight of 21.6 ounces.

Very interesting Peter. Wow - 450 grams for a 12" pizza, that's plenty of dough. I prefer to stretch it a bit thinner, but that's just my personal preference.  Also, I think I'm a bit guilty of allowing my dough to "overferment" rather than underferment, so this comes into play as well. Then again, american style pizza is a new frontier for me.   

 However, as a good corporate citizen concerned with the nutritional interests of its customers, I would think that Domino's would state in its ingredients list that a flour is bleached if that is in fact the case, much as it indicates that its flour is enriched.

I agree 100%.

But what is highly unusual about the Domino's dough is that fact that the iron is in the Domino's ingredient list right after the Wheat Flour, not further down the list of enrichments as is almost always the case. I am unaware of any commercial flour that has the same composition as the Domino's flour. And you won't find that flour at the supermarket, at least not in the U.S. My guess is that Domino's uses a flour milled and blended to their specifications.

Perhaps it's been mentioned before, but it seems that Domino's base flour is a low protein - APish type flour?

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 04:18:46 PM »
Following up on my last post, I decided to send an email to Domino's customer service in which I asked if the Domino's nutrition information on its pizzas, including its dough, was for those items as baked. I also asked whether the Domino's dough was fresh or frozen. This is the response I received:

Domino’s prides itself on using quality ingredients.  Domino’s works with highly reputable suppliers to ensure that we get fresh ingredients. Our pizza dough is fresh and never frozen.  Also our nutrition information is based on our products at consumption therefore cooked if cooking is required for the product.

Peter, I've recently come across a youtube video filmed inside one of Domino's dough fabrication plants, and he stated that the dough remains refridgerated, and has a life of 6 days. He never mentioned that the dough was frozen. I'll look around for the video again and post it here

The last sentence is consistent with what the FDA rules and regulations require but I wanted to get confirmation of that fact in Domino's case. As for the fresh or frozen issue, some time ago I called Domino's and asked whether the dough was fresh or frozen, and was told that it was fresh. It was because of Tom Lehmann's comments to the contrary that I decided to ask the question again.

What isn't entirely clear is how Domino's allocates the baked weight of a pizza to the individual components, namely, the crust, sauce, cheese and toppings. I once dissected a defrosted frozen pizza and weighed the individual components (see, for example, Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6112.msg242492;topicseen#msg242492), but I don't know how Domino's would do it for a regular (fresh) pizza.

Peter
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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 05:47:08 PM »
J,

According to its ingredients list for the hand tossed dough, Domino's apparently uses an enzyme with wheat starch. That may be in lieu of malting the flour. But if we look at only the flour ingredients as Domino's sets them forth at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf (as updated at https://order.dominos.com/en/pages/content/nutritional/ingredients.jsp), there really aren't that many options available commercially, and they will tend to be low protein flours. For example, if we look at the General Mills flours, here are a few examples:

Cameo Bakers Flour: http://www.generalmillsfoodservice.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50802000 (Protein: 9.0% +/- 0.50 to 0.75%)

Golden Shield: http://www.generalmillsfoodservice.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53272000 (Protein: 8.5%)

Sureflake Bakers Flour: http://www.generalmillsfoodservice.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=58431000 (Protein: 9.5% +/- 0.5%)

As for dough ball weights, a few years ago a member who said that he was a Domino's franchisee posted the Domino's dough ball weights at the time at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9212.msg79804#msg79804. At the time, Domino's ingredients list for its hand tossed pizza were the same as they are now. See, for example, the 2009 Domino's document at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. The most recent Domino's document that I referenced earlier in this thread as to the ingredients is dated February of this year. To me, the dough ball weights that the former Domino's franchisee provided seem reasonably credible. On this basis, the corresponding thickness factors for the 12", 14" and 16" sizes would be as follows:

12": 0.13253
14": 0.13642
16": 0.13429

For the record, it is not unusual for different pizza sizes to have different thickness factors. That is also true at Papa John's and Mellow Mushroom.

You might also be interested to know how much barley malt is added to malted flours. See, for example, Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388;topicseen#msg106388. GM uses diastatic malt but there are other forms of enzymes, such as fungal and bacterial amylase.

The amounts of sauce and cheese mentioned in Reply 26 referenced above for the different sizes of Domino's pizzas might also be worth testing.

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:51:16 PM »

J,

I don't think that that this is the video you had in mind, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxDsS38gXAM, but I think it accomplishes pretty much the same thing. What I found interesting is the sequencing of the ingredients in the mixer bowl. The sound quality of the video is not all that great but it appears that the yeast (it is not said what form the yeast takes) is added to the water and followed by the rest of the ingredients. Since the Domino's dough has a useful life of around six days, I wondered whether they used any tricks, like adding the yeast at the end off the dough knead, or using dry ADY, to get the dough to ferment very slowly over that time. I believe it is the very low dough temperatures (after a two hour rest at 45 degrees F) that insures that the dough will last six days. Once in refrigerated vehicles, the dough balls should be at around 35 degrees F. I think that that might lead some people to think that the dough is frozen although I suppose that it is possible that dough temperatures might inadvertently dip below freezing somewhere along the way. Papa John's also tries to keep its dough ball really cold, and I was told by a PJ customer service  rep that their dough balls don't reach the freezing stage at its stores, despite reports to the contrary.

Peter

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Re: Domino's - inspiration - a quick story
« Reply #17 on: Today at 04:41:06 PM »
J,

I knew that there was another video that showed how Domino's makes its dough in its commissaries so I did a bit more heavy searching. I found the video at http://www.readingbakery.com/content/videos/video-player.html?video=perfect_pizza_dough_16x9&aspect=wide and posted it in the opening post of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20485.msg202115#msg202115. The video is a testament to the skills and ingenuity of modern technology.

In the middle of the video, at 2:18, I saw a reading of 779.87 kg/h and a temperature of 16.9 degrees C. That converts to 62.2 degrees F. That might be the dough temperature before the dough is further handled in the chillers and eventually loaded into refrigerated trucks. That sound reasonable, if not mandatory for Domino's dough, for it to last six days.

Peter