Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 213028 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #740 on: July 05, 2014, 01:08:29 PM »
Yeah she went after all the major beer makers also, and even got a few of them like Budweiser, to tell her what they use. What a joke, the basics of what to use to make beer is pretty simple, however the choices and blending of all the possible ingredients you can use and the amounts used is where the secrets lie, and they are not going to tell her that sort of stuff. If she was not making what I would guess is to be a fairly decent amount of money off her blog of mostly complaining about food and drink manufacturers and businesses, not to mention using scare tactics to try and make her points and opinions valid, I'd also guess she would not be doing it.

JohnA,

Unfortunately, companies that deal with food, including the pizza chains, have to be careful in how they deal with food evangelists like the Food Babe for fear that they might take what might have been a molehill and turn it into a mountain and give the food evangelist a lot of free publicity.

In my case, with respect to Papa John's, I was fortunate to get a lot of good information from PJ about their pizzas several years ago (2009), before they tightened up their practices and stopped being so generous with their proprietary information. That left people with only the nutritional information that PJ published online, as at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/SpecialtyPizzas/subMenu.html, and also allergy related information. Interestingly, the PJ Allergy Guide, as given at http://www.papajohns.com/allergens/PJ%20AllergenGuide_3_2011.pdf, does not mention MSG or any of the natural glutamic acid/glutamate ingredients. Moreover, the soybean oil that PJ uses in some of its products is not listed as an allergen. The reason for this was previously discussed in Reply 636 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg283388#msg283388.

Surprisingly, there have not been major changes since 2009 in the major components of PJ's pizza (dough, sauce and cheeses). Where there has been a change, however, in the degree to which PJ is now willing to educate consumers about their products. After the Food Babe's friend Melanie Warner attacked PJ on its unwillingness to be more forthcoming on the ingredients used to make its pizzas (see http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2013/08/27/the-story-behind-papa-johns-better-pizza, PJ started to open up more about its ingredients and formulations. However, it has not been done in a highly public way. Rather, it has been more on a one-on-one basis with consumers and via private communications. This change in policy actually accrued to Norma's and my benefit when Norma decided to try to clone PJ's Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie, with an example of PJ's change in attitude being evident in Reply 636 cited above. Based on exchanges between Norma and I and PJs, I was able to come up with a clone formulation for Norma to use to make the Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie. I had to do a lot of research on chocolate chip cookies but eventually I came up with a clone formulation for Norma to use. It is the one starting at Reply 642 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg285618#msg285618. Without PJ's relaxed attitude about its ingredients, it would not have been possible to reverse engineer and come up with a clone of the PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie. So, from a purely selfish standpoint, I welcome the more open attitude at PJs, even if it is in private.

As an aside, PJs does use partially hydrogenated oils in some of its products, including its famous Garlic dipping sauce. But there are no trans fats in the 28-gram mini-tubs of that dipping sauce. As previously noted, PJs does use soybean oil, which has some saturated fats, and of course, there are saturated fats in the cheese blend that it uses. It is unlikely that any of these product or ingredients will be changed any time soon, notwithstanding what the Food Babe may say.

Peter



Offline JohnA

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #741 on: July 06, 2014, 02:04:34 AM »
One thing that cracks me up about most of these "food evangelists", as you like to call them, is they all pretty much are only self proclaimed food & health experts that seem to like to stroke their own egos, and not much else. All you need to do is see that even the real experts like food scientist, doctors and nutritonist, seem to always be changing their views about food ingrediants, additives and such. Stuff that at one time they said was unhealthy, now they say it's not as bad as they originaly said it was, and of course they also do the reverse of that, and say stuff that they thought was OK, is now bad for you. I can understand how a company must be carefull when dealing with someone like the Food Babe, but I also feel that they should not be offering them any information that might be considered trade secret type information.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #742 on: July 06, 2014, 02:14:07 AM »
One thing that cracks me up about most of these "food evangelists", as you like to call them, is they all pretty much are only self proclaimed food & health experts that seem to like to stroke their own egos, and not much else. All you need to do is see that even the real experts like food scientist, doctors and nutritonist, seem to always be changing their views about food ingrediants, additives and such. Stuff that at one time they said was unhealthy, now they say it's not as bad as they originaly said it was, and of course they also do the reverse of that, and say stuff that they thought was OK, is now bad for you. I can understand how a company must be carefull when dealing with someone like the Food Babe, but I also feel that they should not be offering them any information that might be considered trade secret type information.
Exactly whom likes to call them food evangelists John?

cb
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:17:48 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline JohnA

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #743 on: July 06, 2014, 03:55:48 AM »
Exactly whom likes to call them food evangelists John?

cb

Peter did, in the post above mine.

And honestly, I think it's a description that fits many of them perfectly.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #744 on: July 06, 2014, 08:21:02 AM »
JohnA and Bob,

The expression "food evangelist" is not original with me. I came across the term in an article that I cited a few days ago in this thread (Reply 738): http://www.bakingbusiness.com/articles/news_home/Trends/2014/06/Engaging_the_food_evangelists.aspx?ID=%7b54DA6F2A-0D49-4658-B7DA-18D94AF8EF6F%7d&e=%%emailaddr%%. That article specifically singles out the Food Babe in respect of the term food evangelist.

Another good recent article that touches on some of the points raised by John A and that helps put matters into perspective from a health and nutrition standpoint and the roles of the private and public sector is this one: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/articles/news_home/Health-and-Wellness/2014/06/Slavin_bemoans_public_misperce.aspx?ID=%7b74F7E01D-777D-46B3-B3E7-ED792B9A8E2D%7d&e=%%emailaddr%%.

The road going forward is going to be a bumpy one, and one littered with misinformation and special interests as members of the private and public sectors lobby for their respective points of view and their self-serving interests. And consumers will be forced or asked to make choices when they are muddled or ambiguous, or they don't even know what they are or understand them.

Peter

Offline USMCKoontz

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #745 on: July 09, 2014, 05:53:06 PM »
Koontzy,

When I first started this thread, my objective was to come up with a clone PJ dough that could last from about 3-5 days of cold fermentation, and possibly up to eight days of cold fermentation, as I understood was the case with the doughs that PJ made at its commissaries. That original PJ clone dough formulation is the one given at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197. Over time, I concluded that the clone PJ dough was a difficult one for people to master using a standard home refrigerator. The reason was that a standard home refrigerator, by virtue of its door being opened and closed many times a day, and with items being removed and replaced with regularity, could not maintain the low temperatures that PJ uses in its refrigerated trucks and coolers in its stores. So, I decided to come up with other versions of the PJ dough that were easier to execute. They are not versions that PJ itself uses. The first such version, which turned out to be the most popular alternative version, based on member feedback, is the one given at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217. I subsequently came up with still other versions for those who were looking for different windows of usability of the PJ clone doughs.

As for the use of volume measurements, you will note that I converted the weights for the PJ clone dough formulation set forth in Reply 2 to volume measurements in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58509#msg58509, based on the Textbook conversion method. As you will see if you spend more time on the forum, most members use good digital scales and use weights rather than volume measurements. The reason is that there are so many ways to measure out flour by volume and each method will produce a different weight. Water is measured out more easily by volume but if the flour volume measurement is variable, because of the particular volume measurement method used, the hydration of the flour can be off, sometimes way off. The dough might be too stiff or too wet. I can think of at least five or six different ways of measuring out a cup of flour volumetrically, and each will produce a different weight. You can see some of the different ways of measuring out flour volumetrically by looking at the Measurement Method pull-down menu for the Mass-Volume Measurement Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. To prove the point, you might try running some scenarios through the calculator to see how the method of measuring out the flour produces different weights for any given volume of flour (you might try using a cup of flour).

As for the PJ clone dough formulation set forth in Reply 20 referenced above, you will see that that reply already gives the weights in volume measurements also.

To the above, I would add that I subsequently came into better information that allowed me to fine tune the original dough formulations referenced above. As a substitute for the PJ clone formulation set forth in Reply 20, I later suggested that members use the modified PJ clone formulation as set forth in Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667;topicseen#msg273667. The main difference was the weight of the dough ball and the relative amounts of the sugar and oil. As a practical matter, one might be hard pressed to tell a difference but since the objective was to try to be accurate in the clone, I revised the dough formulation. I did not modify the original PJ clone dough formulation as set forth in Reply 2 referenced above, but that would be pretty easy to do. The main change would be to use the new amounts of sugar and oil and modify the hydration to be compatible with the rated absorption of the particular type and brand of flour used. That is one of the reasons why I asked you in another thread what kind and brand of flour you were planning to use.

If you can tell me what kind and brand of flour you want or plan to use, and which PJ clone version you want to use, I think I should be able to come up with a modified version to use, including the volume conversions.

Peter



I plan on using King Arthur unbleached bread flour. Also would like to be able to make the dough and use it later that night if possible :)

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #746 on: July 10, 2014, 10:55:00 AM »
Koontzy,

I think you can use the dough formulation and instructions as given at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59762#msg59762. That formulation is intended for a dough that is allowed to ferment at room temperature for about 12 hours. However, that time can be extended or reduced by adjusting the amount of yeast (IDY), increasing it for a shorter fermentation time or decreasing it for a longer fermentation time. The 12-hour period can commence in the morning of the day the dough is to be used or the evening before that day. But, no matter what you do along the above lines, you are talking about minuscule amounts of yeast (around 1/32 t plus or minus a few grains). And the outcome will be greatly affected by the room temperature at which the dough ferments. In that regard, I noted that Reply 30 was posted on July 16, 2008. That would suggest that my numbers and instructions might be applicable this month of July as well. Right now, where I live in Texas, we are experiencing 100 degrees F days, with my kitchen being warmer as well. Since you live in South Carolina, this morning's weather report indicates that your daytime temperature is running about 15 degrees F cooler than where I live. So that can affect how your dough performs in your particular kitchen.

Another possibility is to use a modified version of the dough formulation that was set forth in Reply 30 mentioned above. I modified it this morning to incorporate information I acquired long after I started this thread and composed Reply 30. Here is the revised formulation:

Revised 12-Hour (Room Temperature) PJ Clone Dough Formulation
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.025%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.365%):
339.8 g  |  11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
190.29 g  |  6.71 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.08 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp. (1/32 t)
6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
20.01 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
575.49 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.1318688
Note: Dough (20 ounces) is for a 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.12992; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Since you earlier asked for volume measurements, you can try the volume measurements for the flour and water as set forth below based on using the “Textbook” method of flour measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The actual conversions were made using member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. However, despite that fact that I conducted hundreds of weighings of the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) in different volumes to assist member November in creating the database for the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator, volume measurements can still be problematic. It is inherent in the process. As a result, you may have to tweak the amounts of flour and/or water to get the desired final dough condition.

KABF: 2 c + 2/3 c + 1 T + 0.58 t (a bit over 1/2 t)

Water: 3/4 c + about 2 1/2 t (The level of the water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.)

The instructions for preparing and managing the dough are the same as given in Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59357#msg59357 as supplemented by Reply 30 referenced above.

Since this is the first time I have modified the original formulation given in Reply 30, should you choose to use the modified formulation I would hope that you will let me know how things turn out.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #747 on: July 15, 2014, 09:45:32 AM »
Yesterday, as I was researching another matter, I stumbled across a pdf document that is entitled Papa John's Employee Manual. That document, which is at http://blakemward.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/5/8/21582402/employee_manual0.pdf, purports to explain the various duties of a PJ employee at the store level. I don't know if that document is an official Papa John's document (more on this below) but there is a section at page 11 of the document that describes how to execute the so-called "edge-lock".

As was earlier described in this thread, at Reply 153 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg85508#msg85508, the edge-lock is the technique used by workers at the PJ store level to form the rims of the skins used to make the PJ pizzas. According to this article, http://tnjn.org/2013/may/01/papa-johns-the-story-behind-th/, the edge-lock is considered by some to be the hardest part of making a PJ skin. To complicate matters even further, there is also a 'double edge-lock", a "cheese lock" and a "sauce lock". These are not described in the foregoing documents, but I believe that the double edge-lock is the final re-forming of the rim of the skin after all of the other maneuvers have been completed and the skin has been placed on the pizza screen in preparation for dressing and baking. I believe that the sauce lock is executed by leaving a space between the layer of sauce and the rim, and that the cheese lock is executed by superimposing enough of the cheese in the space and on top of the outer edge of  the sauce layer. This latter step is supposed to lock the cheese in place. Otherwise, the cheese can slide off rather than sticking to the crust when the eater bites into it. In the employee manual referenced above, there is only a discussion of the initial edge-lock. But, the width of the skin is supposed to be 3cm. I found this interesting, because I had been using a rim size of 1 1/4", or 3.175cm.

There is also a discussion in the employee manual, starting at page 12, on how to form, slap and stretch the skin. But, curiously, there is no discussion of the docking step, which is executed after the skin is initially formed and before the skin is placed on the screen. This is why I wondered if the employee manual is an official PJ employee manual.

To get a better idea of how the above steps are implemented, I conducted a YouTube search to see if I could find a video that demonstrated these steps. Fortunately, I was able to find a video that is the best video I have seen on the subject. It translate the words in the employee manual into action. The video is at:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avAsirL6sAY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avAsirL6sAY</a>


What is so good about the video is that it is an instructional video that is essentially a slow motion version of how PJ workers are supposed to form the skins in the PJ stores.

In the employee manual referenced above, there is also a discussion, starting at page 13, of the amounts of sauce and cheese to be used for the various sizes of pizzas at PJs. I was most interested in the amounts of the sauce and cheese for the 14" size since that is the size of all of the PJ clones that I made in the course of this thread. From the amounts stated in the manual for the 14" size, I saw that I was using the correct amount of cheese (2 cups) but that I was a bit low on the sauce, by less than a half-cup. However, in viewing the video referenced above, it seems that the amount of sauce is more like what I used. So, it may well be that the employee manual numbers are not entirely accurate.

So, for our members who would like to have added authenticity to the way they form their PJ clone dough skins, there you have it.

Peter

P.S. Since documents like the PJ Employee Manual often tend to disappear with the passage of time or the links become inoperative, I found that there is a copy available at the moment at the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20140715005602/http://blakemward.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/5/8/21582402/employee_manual0.pdf.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #748 on: July 15, 2014, 11:09:55 AM »
i'm fully aware of this and have used the techniques, albeit the photo is that of a NY style, the process (minus docking) was the same.
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #749 on: July 15, 2014, 12:13:23 PM »
Jon,

Knowing that you used to work at Papa John's and that you are a serious student of the craft, I can't say that I am surprised that you are able to make such a professional looking pie. Your photo demonstrates that the techniques you learned at Papa John's have merit and also have applicability to other styles than the PJ American style (sans the docking in your case).

Here is another YouTube video showing the edge locking. Right at the very end of the video, the gal tries to restore the rim but does it so fast that it is easy to miss if you aren't watching her carefully.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a71QCz-NfCs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a71QCz-NfCs</a>


This video also shows the same techniques but racing the clock:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAe-mCrW3xs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAe-mCrW3xs</a>


Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #750 on: July 15, 2014, 01:56:49 PM »
Papa needs a makeover!  :-\

Bob,

I was thinking of your "makeover" comment when I very recently read this interview with John Schnatter on the occasion of Papa John's opening around 100 stores in the area in and around Dubai: http://gulfnews.com/life-style/people/papa-john-s-owner-has-come-a-long-way-1.1056627. What I found notable was John's regimen to keep himself in good shape, specifically:

For the last 22 years I have been working out at the gym and have not missed a single day, and

When I’m not making pizzas, I love riding bicycles and try and do 125 miles (201km) a week, go golfing, and lift weights.

Although I know that there is arguably always an element of promotion of Papa John's in articles like the one referenced above, I personally love stories like the John Schnatter story--how one can start from modest beginnings and through hard work become an enormously successful businessman, yet have a balanced life as a father and husband. In my opinion, we need more such stories.

As an aside, the above interview mentions the cheese lock. It appears that cheese lock is one of the things that is on the PJ quality checklist.

Peter





Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #751 on: July 15, 2014, 02:23:38 PM »
you sure got that right peter,,,media moguls/moungrels got this place so screwed up...

wish there were a thousand more guys like papa.....heck, i can always make my own pizza but i can`t change the new media influence on my gf`s grandchildren. 
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Offline reeter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #752 on: July 23, 2014, 09:56:08 PM »
The Bitchy Waiter just took Food Babe on with a post.

Pete-zza I just put your PJ clone in the fridge an hour ago.  I made a double batch.  The final weight came out good, but it sure was a chore sprinkling all the yeast on it.  There were truly quite a few grains that didn't make it. Hope it works without that bit.  I just figured if a double batch would make 2 -14" pizzas, then it might make 4 of 11", or less, that will fit in the little cooker I got. Size isn't a big factor for me right away. The TF factor is still eluding me, but then I haven't gone back to study it.  I just had to get something on the burner, so to speak, while I still had the momentum.  I am not familiar with PJ pizza, so this will be fun.
reeter