Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 351532 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1025 on: January 17, 2016, 11:25:06 AM »
Peter,

I will give the PJ Pizza a next try tommorow. Would "caputo manitoba" be a good choice as a flour?
d-etip,

I did not see the Caputo Manitoba flour listed at http://caputoflour.com/ or at http://caputoflour.com/sales-pos-products-specs/ but I did see a Caputo '0' Manitoba flour at http://www.molinocaputo.it//index.php?module=ecommerce&modulePage=dettaglio&id=12#. Unfortunately, I could not get the link to the spec sheet for that flour to work. However, according to the brief description of the flour at http://www.adimaria.co.uk/caputo-0-ag-manitoba-flour-25kg/, it appears that the flour is of a fairly high protein value, most likely from wheat from a Canadian wheat supplier. If you have that flour where you are in Germany, you might give it a try and report back on your results one way or the other.

Peter


Offline d-etip

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1026 on: January 17, 2016, 02:31:08 PM »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1027 on: January 17, 2016, 03:19:28 PM »
Peter,

here is a link to what i have bought:
http://www.gustini.de/caputo-farina-tipo-0-manitoba-mehl-a68087r50234101.html
d-etip,

I used the Microsoft translator to see the specs for the flour (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gustini.de%2Fcaputo-farina-tipo-0-manitoba-mehl-a68087r50234101.html%23produkt-inhaltsstoffe), and while I am not sure what system is used for the nutrients, it is clear that the flour is a high protein flour. So, I think it is worth trying the flour.

Peter

Offline Dwain

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1028 on: January 18, 2016, 10:09:34 AM »
Pete,

Though I must admit I did not read all 40+ pages/7 years worth/1028 replies in this thread and this may have already been done, I reduced your paragraphs to one line instructions for the same day PJ clone recipe (reply #24).  Though I've read your instructions for tonight's bake, It makes it easier for a newb like me to follow so I thought others may benefit from it as well.  I look forward to tonight's pie.  Thanks for the hard work and posting.  Please edit as required:

Flour (100%):369.99 g  |  13.05 oz | 0.82 lbs
Water (58%):214.6 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (0.10%):0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Salt (1.50%):5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):15.54 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.9 tsp | 1.3 tbsp
Total (171.1%):   633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

1. Add water, salt and sugar in bowl of stand mixer.
2. Stir to combine with flat paddle and add yeast.
3. Add oil.
4. Once combined, add flour slowly to incorporate.
5. Once incorporated, change flat paddle to dough hook and kneed on speed 2 for 5-6 min.
6. Remove dough from bowl, hand kneed and form into a ball.
7. Place in lightly oiled bowl and let stand at room temp until double in size – about 5.5 hours.
8. Punch down and let double again – about 2.5 hours.
9. Stretch into 14” skin on well dusted surface.
10. Top as desired.
11. Bake on a 14” screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at around 500° F (preheated for 15 minutes) for about 8-9 minutes or until the bottom of the crust has browned.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:02:19 PM by Dwain »
~ May your glass be ever full. May the roof over your head be always strong. And may you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead. ~  Big Deck BBQ and Brew

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1029 on: January 18, 2016, 07:08:32 PM »
Dwain,

Thank you for taking the time to post the same-day PJ clone dough formulation for a 14" pizza.

In general, I believe that over the years PJ has changed the amounts of oil and sugar used in its basic dough. However, it is hard to be sure because the FDA allows for rounding of numbers for the nutrients reported for the PJ products and it also allows for variations of up to 20% in the reported values of certain nutrients (see the article at http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story?guid=21e88016-5636-11e5-a2fb-915d3d2fdb54&storyguid=21e88016-5636-11e5-a2fb-915d3d2fdb54&siteid=nwhpf). But, that said, the numbers you are using should work quite well. However, I might also add that the PJ dough for a 14" pizza may be 20.25 ounces give or take a quarter ounce, not the 22-ounce number you used to come up with the final numbers in your post. This comes from an article that Norma found about one of the PJ commissaries. But your numbers should still be OK for a PJ clone.

As for your instructions, you can add the IDY directly to the flour although there is no harm in prehydrating it if you wish. Also, I noticed that you forgot to add the oil in your instructions. If you would like to give me your instructions for the oil and where to include those instructions, I can make the changes for you.

Since you cited the numbers that pertain to this thread, had I decided to limit myself to the original PJ clone formulation, I would have been able to stop at Reply 3 on page 1 and called it a day. However, I added several other versions of the PJ clone dough that PJ itself does not itself offer--to give our members many other choices--and I also added clones of PJ dessert pizzas, Cheesesticks, breadsticks, the PJ Garlic sauce, and even the PJ Mega-Chocolate chip cookie. If you divide the number of page views for this thread by the number of pages in this thread or the number of posts in this thread, you will see that this thread is among the most compact threads for any major topic on the forum based on page views.

Peter

Offline Dwain

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1030 on: January 18, 2016, 08:04:18 PM »
Thanks Pete.  I edited my instructions and posted my bake in the daily pie thread.  Though I made a mistake by not turning the pie soon enough so it got a little done on one side, my family really enjoyed the pie.  Again, thank you.
~ May your glass be ever full. May the roof over your head be always strong. And may you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead. ~  Big Deck BBQ and Brew

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1031 on: January 18, 2016, 09:10:39 PM »
Dwain's pizza can be seen at Reply 4837 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg411895#msg411895, with the photo reproduced below for convenience. I'm glad that Dwain and his family liked the pizza. The original formulation is at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59357#msg59357.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1032 on: January 24, 2016, 04:09:35 PM »
There are some nice photos (reproduced below for convenience) of PJ clone Cheesesticks made by member hammettjr, at Reply 61 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25603.msg412786#msg412786.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1033 on: February 01, 2016, 02:04:52 PM »
Hi Peter
I wanted to try the PJ clone pizza but there are so many variants that I am totally confused! Is it possible for you to calculate a 2 x16 PJ clone with a 24h ferment time?
I don't have soybean oil. I do have either canola or olive oil.
Also I have only Robin Hood "best for bread" or All purpose flour.
I have Kosher and regular table salt.
Thanks!
Matt


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1034 on: February 01, 2016, 06:19:38 PM »
Hi Peter
I wanted to try the PJ clone pizza but there are so many variants that I am totally confused! Is it possible for you to calculate a 2 x16 PJ clone with a 24h ferment time?
I don't have soybean oil. I do have either canola or olive oil.
Also I have only Robin Hood "best for bread" or All purpose flour.
I have Kosher and regular table salt.
Thanks!
Matt
Matt,

I have been involved in this thread for over seven years and I still don't know the dough ball weights for the various sizes of the PJ pizzas. Even former employees of PJs differ on that score. And the only dough ball weight that I have ever seen in an article is one for the 14" size, and the dough ball weight that was given for that size was 20.25 ounces give or take a quarter-ounce. I can extrapolate from that dough ball weight to a 16" size but I can't say that the extrapolated value--26.5 ounces--is what PJs uses in its business. But for your purposes, that value should suffice.

As for the ingredients that you have on hand, the Robin Hood Best for Bread flour, which is shown and described at http://www.robinhood.ca/Products/Best-For-Flours/Best-For-Bread-Homestyle-White, should work for your purposes. It is preferable in my opinion to all purpose flour. I don't know the precise protein content of the Best for Bread flour, but Canadian flours in general tend to have a higher protein content than their U.S. counterparts. So, if the Best for Bread flour doesn't work out well enough for you and the crust is too chewy, you can always try using all purpose flour.

With respect to the oil, soybean oil is commonly sold in supermarkets as vegetable oil. In the old days, it was usually called salad oil. But to be on the safe side, I would read the label to be sure that the bottle contains only soybean oil inasmuch as some vegetable oils are blends of soybean oil and another oil. But if you want to use canola oil, that might work but at the levels called for in the dough formulation I propose to give you, you might end up with a crust that has a taste that is sometimes described as "fishy". I would not use olive oil in the dough formulation since large amounts of olive oil can yield a flavor that is too potent and pungent. Most pizza chains use soybean oil because it is cheap and does not impart strong flavors to the finished crust.

Either ordinary table salt or Kosher salt can be used for the dough. However, since PJ uses ordinary table salt, that is what I suggest you use.

The PJ clone formulation that you have in mind is the one that I set forth at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076. For this iteration of that dough formulation, I have increased the amount of salt to 1.75%, to be consistent with what I believe to be roughly the amount that PJ now uses.

So, here is the dough formulation as you requested:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169.65%):
Single Ball:
898.96 g  |  31.71 oz | 1.98 lbs
503.42 g  |  17.76 oz | 1.11 lbs
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
15.73 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.82 tsp | 0.94 tbsp
65.62 g | 2.31 oz | 0.14 lbs | 4.82 tbsp | 0.3 cups
37.76 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 9.47 tsp | 3.16 tbsp
1525.09 g | 53.79 oz | 3.36 lbs | TF = N/A
762.54 g | 26.9 oz | 1.68 lbs
Note: Dough is for two 16" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.13155; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note that I added a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. So you should scale the dough to 26.5 ounces. Before preparing the dough, you will want to be sure that your mixer can handle the 3.36 pounds of dough. If you need to do two separate batches of dough, you might want to use the expanded dough calculating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html) to come up with the correct ingredient quantities for just one dough ball.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter




Offline mgsimms

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1035 on: February 02, 2016, 01:46:38 PM »
Thanks Peter. I'll give it a try. So this is for a 2 day cold (fridge ferment?) I noticed that the IDY is .40 instead of .28 in past recipes for 2 d ferment.
Matt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1036 on: February 02, 2016, 02:00:40 PM »
Thanks Peter. I'll give it a try. So this is for a 2 day cold (fridge ferment?) I noticed that the IDY is .40 instead of .28 in past recipes for 2 d ferment.
Matt
Matt,

No, the formulation is for a dough that is to be cold fermented for 24 hours, as I believe you requested. Hence the greater amount of IDY.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1037 on: February 02, 2016, 02:07:25 PM »
Sorry. Yes I did ask for that. Can I cold ferment it in a pyrex bowl with saran wrap with a hole cut out?

 I noticed that you use a screen for the pizza and not bake on a stone. Why? Also how do you prevent it from sticking to the pizza screen? Whenever I bake on a screen, the dough seems to creep just enough into the tiny spots in the screen to cause it to stick!

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1038 on: February 02, 2016, 02:28:41 PM »
Sorry. Yes I did ask for that. Can I cold ferment it in a pyrex bowl with saran wrap with a hole cut out?

I noticed that you use a screen for the pizza and not bake on a stone. Why? Also how do you prevent it from sticking to the pizza screen? Whenever I bake on a screen, the dough seems to creep just enough into the tiny spots in the screen to cause it to stick!
Matt,

Yes, you should be able to put some clear plastic wrap, like the Saran wrap, over the Pyrex bowl but I don't think you need to poke a hole in the plastic wrap. You can also lightly oil and put the dough in a bread bag and twist the open ends of the bag into a pony tail and tuck it under. You can even put a damp towel across the Pyrex bowl if you prefer to use a bowl.

The reason why I baked the pizzas using a screen is because I was trying to replicate what PJ does and they use screens (although many PJ stores have been upgrading to perforated disks more recently). My screen is seasoned so dough does not stick to it, and I don't let unbaked pizzas sit for long on the screen. We have had some members bake the PJ clone pizzas on stones but I have tended to either discourage it, because the dough formulation contains so much sugar that the bottom of the crust can burn or turn brown prematurely when using a stone, or I instruct them to carefully monitor the bottom crust color development. Another potential risk when using a stone is that the pizza may look and seem done when the bottom crust is of the desired color but there may be parts of the pizza that are underbaked and of a pasty or gummy character. You may be able to avoid or minimize some of these problems by playing around with the oven rack position to slow down the bottom crust browning and possibly use the broil function, but ovens and oven types and features can differ quite widely from one person to another. So, you may have to do some experimentation with your particular oven.

Peter


Offline mgsimms

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1039 on: February 05, 2016, 08:20:26 PM »
Hi Peter. So one thing I noticed with making the dough is the weights do not at all correspond to the Tsp/tbsp equivalents as stated. When I weigh out the ingredients they are about 2/3 to 3/4 the required amts. either way the dough came out nicely however wasn't doubled. Maybe 1 1/2x instead.

I seasoned new screens which worked out well. I goofed and forgot to take the dough out and bench it for an hour! Despite that it did form well. I made a dustinator with 50/50 AP flour and Semolina.

In preheated 500'oven for 5-6 min low rack it started to burn bottom quickly. Moved it to top to brown top.  Pizza came out very dark on bottom. Too much sugar? VERY hard to monitor bottom without removing pizza from oven or opening door and sliding out rack

Found dough was too bland tasting. May be due to relative under browning of top crust vs bottom?  What about using convection instead?

BTW I have done those bread bags in the past with my NY recipe. Good idea
Matt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1040 on: Yesterday at 12:29:46 PM »
Matt, 

I did the basic design for all of the dough calculating tools so I can tell you that the volume to weight conversions for the various dough calculating tools, including the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html that I used to come up with the formulation you requested, came from several places: from actual measurements that Steve (the owner of the forum) conducted, from ingredient labels, from Nutrition Facts labels, and from the NutritionData.Self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/. The data at the NutritionDataSelf data is mainly from the USDA database. In some cases, as where there were several brands of a given ingredient, such as vital wheat gluten, I averaged the conversion data for the multiple brands. Also, in a few cases where I could not find any conversion data or a means to calculate same for a given ingredient that I had in my pantry, I conducted my own weighings.

It is important to keep in mind that there are a variety of other factors that can affect weights of ingredients, such as aging, humidity, exposure to moisture, oxidation, storage conditions, and compaction. Even the measuring cups and spoons can produce weight variations inasmuch as their shapes can vary and they can be made of different materials, such as plastic or metal, and can be subject to different manufacturing tolerances. Finally, people do not measure out volumes the same way. Some use heaping teaspoons or scant teaspoons rather than level teaspoons on which most conversions are based. I have conducted hundreds of weighings on my scales, using different measuring cups and measuring spoons, and of metal and plastic, and when the numbers are averaged, they can vary more than one might expect.

In most cases, the conversion data go out to about 5-8 decimal places. However, the outputs of the dough calculating tools are two decimal places. There are no conversions of weight to volume for flour, water or cake yeast.

My practice when using the different dough calculating tools is to weigh the flour and water and any other ingredient using in a fairly large quantity, such as the oil in the PJ clone dough formulations, on my scales. For the rest of the ingredients, I generally use the volume measurements. I even have a special set of mini-measuring spoons to use for very small volumes. That set is like the one shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264.

I am surprised that you did not get two dough balls of the specified weight. The dough formulation I gave you included a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That is my standard number for a PJ clone dough (and many other types as well). When I use that value, I generally have a little bit of dough left over after scaling the dough on my scale.

As for your problem with the bottom crust burning, I did not have that problem in my electric home oven with the pizza on the screen being placed on the lowest oven rack position. Ovens can vary quite widely so maybe you need to use a higher oven rack position. I do not have a convection feature on my oven but I know that some member who do have that feature say that it helps improve top crust browning. All crust browning adds flavor to a crust so use of the convection feature may help you out in that regard.

You might also take a look at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965 where I discussed several ways that I and other members have used with their ovens to achieve desired results. That post is with respect to a NY style of pizza but some of the principles might apply to an American style of pizza such as the PJ pizza with a lot of sugar in the dough.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1041 on: Yesterday at 02:21:00 PM »
The results are in for a blind taste test of Domino's, Pizza Hut's and Papa John's pizzas  ;D:

http://www.businessinsider.com/blind-pizza-taste-test-major-chains-pizza-hut-dominos-papa-johns-2016-2

Peter


Offline mgsimms

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1042 on: Yesterday at 05:02:54 PM »
I loved the quality of the dough. It was easy almost too easy to form into a 16"skin. With out any effort I had accidentally overstretched it and had to gather it all in to fit on the screen. Btw the seasoned screens worked like Magic!
Next time Ill try convection. The intense 500 heat on the underside led to some regional burning of the bottom crust. Convection might even the heat out