Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 260076 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Egypt
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #800 on: January 20, 2015, 04:03:56 PM »
sallam,

Did you specifically try the dough formulation at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357? If so and you did not get the results you were looking for, then, yes, it is possible to do as you suggest but I cannot tell you the time periods to use since I do not recall trying that method myself with a PJ clone dough. The method you propose, however, is a fairly common one among pizza operators so it should work if you can work out the details.

Peter

I've tried long room temp fermentation, but the results were bad. It seems that where I live the air possibly has some bad enzymes lurking around, so they invade the dough and develop bad taste before the yeast develops strongly enough to ward off the bad enzymes. Just guessting.

But I've just finished baking 2 pies with an experimental dough that I left in room temp for 1hour before it went in the fridge for 48 hours, opening cold in trays then a 90 minutes rest before baking. The result was huge oven rise, possibly the highest I've seen, but the crust didn't have that beautiful tang that I'm used to with cold fermenting. It tasted as if it was fermented in room temp, with almost no effect from the 2-day cold ferment (other than the oven spring). Perhaps the 1 hour allowed the yeast to develop enough power to block the development of the fridge enzymes that is supposed to give the dough the nice tangy taste?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:20:41 PM by sallam »
I'm a home baker.

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Egypt
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #801 on: January 20, 2015, 09:03:22 PM »
Peter,
You wrote earlier in the thread about your experiment with the use of a poolish. I'm interested to know your formula and procedures, and how long did you ferment the poolish itself.

I'm thinking.. what if I cold ferment a poolish for 2 days, instead of cold fermenting the whole dough. Will such poolish transform the light sour, lovely tangy taste of a 2-day cold fermented dough, to the dough made with such poolish, then left on room temp to double? If so, it would solve the tight fridge space I'm having...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 09:12:35 PM by sallam »
I'm a home baker.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #802 on: January 21, 2015, 07:48:31 PM »
Peter,
You wrote earlier in the thread about your experiment with the use of a poolish. I'm interested to know your formula and procedures, and how long did you ferment the poolish itself.

I'm thinking.. what if I cold ferment a poolish for 2 days, instead of cold fermenting the whole dough. Will such poolish transform the light sour, lovely tangy taste of a 2-day cold fermented dough, to the dough made with such poolish, then left on room temp to double? If so, it would solve the tight fridge space I'm having...
sallam,

As best I can recall, I made two Papa John's clone dough balls using a preferment.

In one case, I used a natural preferment. The results of that experiment are set forth in Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892. I posted the results because I thought that they were noteworthy. I also wanted to satisfy my curiosity that it was possible to make a naturally leavened PJ clone dough and a pizza using that dough that I wouldn't mind eating.

In the second case, I used a preferment to make another PJ clone dough but instead of using a natural leavening it was leavened with only commercial yeast. I mentioned that experiment in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335 but I did not post the dough formulation because the crust was too puffy and breadlike and not close enough to a PJ crust to qualify as a PJ clone. However, since you asked me about the latter version, I went back to my PJ clone file and found the dough formulation I actually used. It is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (1.25%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7%):
Sugar (4.75%):
Total (176.5%):
344.68 g  |  12.16 oz | 0.76 lbs
213.7 g  |  7.54 oz | 0.47 lbs
4.31 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.43 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.17 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
24.13 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.31 tsp | 1.77 tbsp
16.37 g | 0.58 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.11 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
608.36 g | 21.46 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.1394
Note: The KABF is sifted. the dough is for a single 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

For the preferment, I used 6.08 ounces of the flour (1 c. + 1/3 c. + 1.85 t.), all of the formula water (7.54 ounces, or 3/4 c. + 3 T. + 1.4 t.) and about one-half of the formula IDY (about 3/4 teaspoon). The preferment was allowed to ferment for about 3 1/2 hours at a room temperature of about 79.5 degrees F. I then combined the preferment with all of the remaining flour, all of the remaining IDY, and the sugar and oil. The dough so formed was allowed to rest at the above room temperature for 1 1/2 hours. I don't recall exactly how I came up with the above prefermentation protocol but usually my guide in matters like this is the two articles by Didier Rosada at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. What I ended up with was a one-day dough. That was by design.

What you have set forth as a possible approach to use may work but I cannot tell you if your specific numbers will work. For example, you would have to modify the preferment (the amounts of flour, water and IDY) in your case to last for two days at the temperature of your refrigerator, and then combine the preferment with the rest of the formula ingredients to form the final dough and then allow that dough to ferment at room temperature until doubled. The math for doing this sort of thing can get tricky, especially deciding on how to apportion the total formula IDY between the preferment and the final dough, and you might also need to change the amounts of flour and water in the preferment.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #803 on: February 26, 2015, 12:26:29 PM »
Sorry for what I'm sure is a dumb question, but can this recipe be made using King Arthur all purpose flour and ADY? Also, my food scale doesn't even go to tenths for measuring in grams  ???

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #804 on: February 26, 2015, 01:51:38 PM »
Sorry for what I'm sure is a dumb question, but can this recipe be made using King Arthur all purpose flour and ADY? Also, my food scale doesn't even go to tenths for measuring in grams  ???
eagon06,

No need to apologize. Since Papa John's never used all purpose flour, I never adapted the recipes I posted to use that flour. Is there a particular recipe that you would like to try?

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #805 on: February 26, 2015, 02:04:27 PM »
eagon06,

No need to apologize. Since Papa John's never used all purpose flour, I never adapted the recipes I posted to use that flour. Is there a particular recipe that you would like to try?

Peter

Maybe the 24 hour version to make tomorrow? I'm just trying to make something similar with what I have to work with. I could always go buy IDY but wasn't sure if you could substitute.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #806 on: February 26, 2015, 03:24:24 PM »
Maybe the 24 hour version to make tomorrow? I'm just trying to make something similar with what I have to work with. I could always go buy IDY but wasn't sure if you could substitute.
eagon06,

I created the formulation below just for you so I do not have any idea as to how it will work since it strays far afield from what PJ does. I used the PJ clone formulation at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076 as a starting point but updated it to reflect later-acquired information. Here is the modified formulation:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (55.5%):
ADY (0.55%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.39%):
339.75 g  |  11.98 oz | 0.75 lbs
188.56 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
20.01 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a 20-ounce dough ball for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.129922; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Since you will be using ADY, you should prehydrate the ADY in a small amount of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. It can then be combined with the rest of the formula water, which ideally should be on the cool side. If you don't have a scale capable of weighing small amounts of ingredients, I suggest that you use the volume measurements (rounding is OK) set forth in the above dough formulation. You should also scale the final dough as it comes out of your mixer, or as a result of hand kneading if that is what you decide to do, to 20 ounces.

If you proceed, please let us know how things turn out. I value the feedback so that I know whether something works or not, or maybe help improve the recipe.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #807 on: February 26, 2015, 06:03:35 PM »
eagon06,

I created the formulation below just for you so I do not have any idea as to how it will work since it strays far afield from what PJ does. I used the PJ clone formulation at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076 as a starting point but updated it to reflect later-acquired information. Here is the modified formulation:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (55.5%):
ADY (0.55%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.39%):
339.75 g  |  11.98 oz | 0.75 lbs
188.56 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
20.01 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a 20-ounce dough ball for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.129922; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Since you will be using ADY, you should prehydrate the ADY in a small amount of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. It can then be combined with the rest of the formula water, which ideally should be on the cool side. If you don't have a scale capable of weighing small amounts of ingredients, I suggest that you use the volume measurements (rounding is OK) set forth in the above dough formulation. You should also scale the final dough as it comes out of your mixer, or as a result of hand kneading if that is what you decide to do, to 20 ounces.

If you proceed, please let us know how things turn out. I value the feedback so that I know whether something works or not, or maybe help improve the recipe.

Peter

Thanks so much. Before I saw this I decided to give another one a shot based on the Buffalo, NY style.

Flour (100%):    424.57 g  |  14.98 oz | 0.94 lbs (KABF)
Water (58%):    246.25 g  |  8.69 oz | 0.54 lbs
ADY (0.4%):    1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.50%):    6.37 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):    30.99 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.82 tsp | 2.27 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):    17.83 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.47 tsp | 1.49 tbsp
Total (171.4%):   727.71 g | 25.67 oz | 1.6 lbs | TF = 0.1452556

I used AP flour and ADY. Came within 3g if the final weight, going to bake tomorrow. I did mix the water in while still hot so hopefully that won't affect it much?

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #808 on: March 04, 2015, 12:16:29 PM »
Morten,

I suggest that you  try the following PJ clone dough formulation instead:

Flour* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.62%):
339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs
190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.01 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
*The flour should have a protein content between 13.4-13.6%
Note: Dough (20 ounces) is for a 14" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.12992; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The amount of yeast specified is for a two-day cold fermentation. For a 3-day cold fermentation, try 0.25% IDY.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Hi Pete, I went out and bought some KABF and IDY. I would like to make this specific dough (48 hour) formula. I read your instructions from reply 20 and just have a few questions. I don't have a standard Kitchen Aid mixer, I use a Ninja with dough hook (). All this does is whip the ingrediants together (at a very high speed)
until the dough is formed. Just wondering with this process, how should I go about adding the yeast, and what about hand kneading times? As far as your bowl with a hole in it, could I just pop a few tiny holes in a rubbermade? Thanks, can't wait. Going to make a pear & gorgonzola with prosciutto and balsalmic reduction MMMMM
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:23:12 PM by eagon06 »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #809 on: March 04, 2015, 01:13:08 PM »
eagon06,

It looks like the Ninja mixer most closely resembles a food processor, which I have used many times before to make pizza dough. I think the Ninja machine should work for your purposes but I would use ice cold water because the Ninja machine is likely to add a lot of frictional heat to the dough. If the dough is too warm, it will ferment faster and be ready sooner than you might desire.

As for the IDY, I would just mix it in dry with the flour.

If you hand knead the dough, I would estimate that it will take around nine minutes to make the dough. I did describe one method I used to hand knead a PJ clone dough at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312 but that method is not the only possible hand kneading method to use.

I wouldn't worry if the lid for your dough storage container does not have a hole in it since the dough you will be making won't be blowing the lid off of the container.

Peter


Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #810 on: March 04, 2015, 05:14:45 PM »
eagon06,

It looks like the Ninja mixer most closely resembles a food processor, which I have used many times before to make pizza dough. I think the Ninja machine should work for your purposes but I would use ice cold water because the Ninja machine is likely to add a lot of frictional heat to the dough. If the dough is too warm, it will ferment faster and be ready sooner than you might desire.

As for the IDY, I would just mix it in dry with the flour.

If you hand knead the dough, I would estimate that it will take around nine minutes to make the dough. I did describe one method I used to hand knead a PJ clone dough at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312 but that method is not the only possible hand kneading method to use.

I wouldn't worry if the lid for your dough storage container does not have a hole in it since the dough you will be making won't be blowing the lid off of the container.

Peter

Thank you for the reply. If I mix all ingredients into the ninja and then the dough forms, I don't understand why I would need the bench knife after? I know the purpose is to work the flour in, but won't it already be all mixed together?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #811 on: March 04, 2015, 06:01:18 PM »
Thank you for the reply. If I mix all ingredients into the ninja and then the dough forms, I don't understand why I would need the bench knife after? I know the purpose is to work the flour in, but won't it already be all mixed together?
eagon06,

No, you won't need to use a bench knife. The Ninja machine will do a better and faster job combining ingredients than hand kneading will do. The bench knife that was mentioned in the post I referenced was for a different version of a PJ clone dough where the dough was softer and somewhat wetter and harder to handle than a dough from a machine.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #812 on: March 04, 2015, 06:14:33 PM »
eagon06,

No, you won't need to use a bench knife. The Ninja machine will do a better and faster job combining ingredients than hand kneading will do. The bench knife that was mentioned in the post I referenced was for a different version of a PJ clone dough where the dough was softer and somewhat wetter and harder to handle than a dough from a machine.

Peter

Thanks. So, ninja everything, hand knead for about 9 minutes, and then place in oiled container and proceed from there, correct?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #813 on: March 04, 2015, 06:21:21 PM »
Thanks. So, ninja everything, hand knead for about 9 minutes, and then place in oiled container and proceed from there, correct?
eagon06,

No, you don't need to knead the dough by hand if you use the Ninja machine. All you might have to do is to shape the dough as it comes out of the Ninja into a smooth round ball, which you can then lightly oil and place into your dough storage container. When you originally asked about hand kneading, I thought that you were thinking of possibly making the dough entirely by hand, not using a machine.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #814 on: March 04, 2015, 06:32:39 PM »
eagon06,

No, you don't need to knead the dough by hand if you use the Ninja machine. All you might have to do is to shape the dough as it comes out of the Ninja into a smooth round ball, which you can then lightly oil and place into your dough storage container. When you originally asked about hand kneading, I thought that you were thinking of possibly making the dough entirely by hand, not using a machine.

Peter

Perfect! Thanks so much for spelling it out.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #815 on: March 04, 2015, 11:29:26 PM »
Perfect! Thanks so much for spelling it out.
eagon06,

After my last post, I wondered whether your Ninja machine can handle around 20 ounces of dough. The flour (KABF) itself comes to around 2 2/3 cups if measured out using the Textbook flour measurement method (where the flour in the flour bag or other container is stirred to loosen, then lifted by a spoon repeatedly to fill your measurement cup and leveled off using a straight edge). If your Ninja machine can't make the dough in a single batch, you may have to make the dough in two like batches and merge them.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #816 on: March 06, 2015, 04:28:44 PM »
Just got done making it, 575g exact! It fit in there no problem. I really struggle forming a smooth ball however.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #817 on: March 06, 2015, 04:45:19 PM »
I really struggle forming a smooth ball however.
eagon06,

I wouldn't worry too much is the dough ball isn't perfectly smooth. It will smooth out on its own to a large degree as it ferments.

Peter

Offline eagon06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #818 on: March 09, 2015, 03:47:25 PM »
eagon06,

I wouldn't worry too much is the dough ball isn't perfectly smooth. It will smooth out on its own to a large degree as it ferments.

Peter

Peter, I got stuck out of town an extra day. The dough has been in the fridge for 3 days now, is it still okay you think?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22899
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #819 on: March 09, 2015, 03:52:46 PM »
Peter, I got stuck out of town an extra day. The dough has been in the fridge for 3 days now, is it still okay you think?
eagon06,

I think you should be OK. It all depends on how cold your refrigerator operates.

Peter