Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 224791 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #760 on: August 25, 2014, 10:04:27 PM »
Bob,

When you discuss chain pizza, and especially the big four, the narrative is different than for the pizzas sold by independents and artisan pizza makers. And in the big chain arena, Papa John's regularly scores well in the surveys of consumers. Also, as I have noted before on many occasions, I think that the people who make PJ clones as discussed in this thread will end up with better pizzas than sold by PJ.

Peter
Ok Peter...whatever. You did not address either of my statements/questions and that is prolly just as well.  :)

You do make a mean, popular PJ clone though from what the responses show...I dig that man.  ;)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #761 on: August 25, 2014, 10:31:03 PM »
Ok Peter...whatever. You did not address either of my statements/questions and that is prolly just as well.  :)

Bob,

I did not specifically address the "better ingredients, better pizza" issue because that issue was litigated in 1997 when Pizza Hut brought suit against Papa John's over the use of that slogan. Unfortunately, Pizza Hut was unable to prove that consumers relied on the slogan in making purchasing decisions. As a result of that decision, I have always viewed the slogan as just a slogan without meaning. You can read a brief summary of the decision at http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_John's_Pizza .

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #762 on: August 25, 2014, 10:51:41 PM »
Bob,

I did not specifically address the "better ingredients, better pizza" issue because that issue was litigated in 1997 when Pizza Hut brought suit against Papa John's over the use of that slogan. Unfortunately, Pizza Hut was unable to prove that consumers relied on the slogan in making purchasing decisions. As a result of that decision, I have always viewed the slogan as just a slogan without meaning. You can read a brief summary of the decision at http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_John's_Pizza .

Peter
Do you think anything will ever be done about the marketing that joints like PJ and PH get away with in purporting to be `healthy` ingredients, along with their cheap price to all the single moms that purchase that crap 2 to 3 times a week and are raising obese kids....we all have to contribute big tax dollars because of this problem.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #763 on: August 26, 2014, 09:20:57 AM »
Do you think anything will ever be done about the marketing that joints like PJ and PH get away with in purporting to be `healthy` ingredients, along with their cheap price to all the single moms that purchase that crap 2 to 3 times a week and are raising obese kids....we all have to contribute big tax dollars because of this problem.
Bob,

In general, all companies--not just pizza chains like Papa John's and Pizza Hut--have to be very careful about making health claims. There are now so many people out there, like the Food Babe, and many other watchdog organizations that watch what food companies say and do that the companies have learned to be more careful about what they say for fear that they may be sued and possibly harmed by the attendant bad publicity that can easily go viral in today's Internet world. In fact, a while back, Tom Lehmann gave me links to some articles that discussed claims that were made, and settled, against food companies for saying things that didn't strike me as being particularly egregious. Of course, companies like Papa John's and Pizza Hut will promote the quality of the ingredients used to make their pizzas, just as they have always done. But, as best I can tell, they don't make health claims.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that in our system of capitalism the owners and employees of food companies, including the pizza chains, are rewarded for increasingly pushing more product out the door. That is one of the reasons why portion sizes are so large in restaurants. The companies owe no duty to tell diners or consumers to exercise restraint in their eating habits or to exercise or take any other measures to work off the excess calories. And from the restraint standpoint we have clearly failed as a nation, as evidenced by the fact that the U.S. is now the first or second "fattest" nation in the world (Mexico owns the other spot), with a lot of the blame being placed on the increasingly high carbohydrate diets of people as a consequence of trying to reduce the amount of fat in the diet. So, it isn't just companies like Papa John's and Pizza Hut. Eventually, we all end up paying for health issues related to obesity, through our premiums and taxes. There is no individual responsibility or accountability. And all of the polls clearly show that people to not want to be told what to eat, and especially if the government tries to do that.

I will close this post by noting that after several years of increasing obesity in children, the rate of obesity in children has started to abate. But it is still too early to identify the reasons for the decline and whether the decline is just a blip that is likely to reverse again.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #764 on: September 11, 2014, 09:27:13 PM »
I cheated, but made something like a PJ cookie.  For this cookie I used my cake pan.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #765 on: September 11, 2014, 09:34:30 PM »
Nice cookie, cookie.  :chef:
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #766 on: September 11, 2014, 09:37:32 PM »
Norma,

Your cookie looks good. How did it compare with your clone PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookies?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #767 on: September 11, 2014, 10:05:03 PM »
Nice cookie, cookie.  :chef:

Norma,

Your cookie looks good. How did it compare with your clone PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookies?

Peter

Bob and Peter, Thanks!

The cookie was very good, but not nearly as good as Peter's clone PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie.  The cookie I made tonight is really soft but the chocolate chips are not nearly as good as the ones you said to use.  When I went to pick up flour today I thought I would purchase some frozen chocolate chip dough, and then try it in a cake pan to see what would happen.  I have been thinking of offering a PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie at market, but I don't have enough space to store more ingredients at market.  I worried about storing chocolate chips in the warm temperatures at market too.  Also those aluminum pans are fairly expensive.

I want to thank Peter for going through all the trouble of coming up with the clone PF Mega Chocolate Chip  Cookie.  I learned how to make a cookie pizza from you.

These are two photos of what I used.

Norma
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Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #768 on: September 18, 2014, 05:03:41 PM »
Pete,

Is there a way to ensure that the crust of my pizza is thick every time?

It seems like some of my pies will only have half of the crust rise nice and thick around the rim, while the other side doesn't seem to rise as much.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #769 on: September 19, 2014, 05:34:16 PM »
Pete,

Is there a way to ensure that the crust of my pizza is thick every time?

It seems like some of my pies will only have half of the crust rise nice and thick around the rim, while the other side doesn't seem to rise as much.
Avoid drafts.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #770 on: September 19, 2014, 05:48:23 PM »
Pete,

Is there a way to ensure that the crust of my pizza is thick every time?

It seems like some of my pies will only have half of the crust rise nice and thick around the rim, while the other side doesn't seem to rise as much.
Jason,

I'm not sure how you have been getting irregular crusts with unequal rise in the rims. Can you tell me what kind of oven you are using and how you are baking the pizzas? If the rim is uniform in size before baking, it should be uniform in size after baking (but it may be larger).

Peter

Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #771 on: September 19, 2014, 06:12:22 PM »
Jason,

I'm not sure how you have been getting irregular crusts with unequal rise in the rims. Can you tell me what kind of oven you are using and how you are baking the pizzas? If the rim is uniform in size before baking, it should be uniform in size after baking (but it may be larger).

Peter

Peter,

I make the dough and my wife has pretty much taken over rolling out the dough and cooking it. From what I've seen, she always rolls the dough out pretty evenly.

I started having her test longer cooking times to see if that would make the rims puff up more, but I haven't seen a discernible difference in cooking it longer.

Basically, we cook it in a gas oven on a stone. We let the stone heat up for 30 mins at 500f. Then we were cooking it at 500f for 7 minutes. I asked my wife to push it to 8 minutes and the crust still turned out quite well with a golden brown hue like I love.

The pizza is incredible, it's just I've noticed that when the rim puffs out more, it tastes even better, if that makes sense. So I'm trying to figure out how to consistently do that for the entire pizza.

Are there any tricks while it is cooking or does it have to maybe do with how she is rolling out the pizza?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #772 on: September 20, 2014, 02:34:55 PM »
Jason,

From what I have seen from Google Images, there are some Papa John's pizzas that can have enlarged rims that are of above average height but that is normally not the case. It could be that the top heat in the conveyor ovens that PJ uses could lead to an oversized rim but it is also possible that the rim was intentionally or inadvertently made larger by the worker in opening the dough ball to form the skin.

Since this thread is a PJ clone thread, I have tried to instruct members on how PJ makes its skins. Norma posted a video in Reply 679 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg292489#msg292489 that does a nice job of showing how a skin is formed at her local PJ store. Later, in Reply 547 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482, I posted additional material on this subject, including a video that shows everything in pretty much slow motion.

From your post, it wasn't clear whether your wife has been forming the skins with a rolling pin. If that is the case, the rolling pin will force a lot of the gas out of the skin and also leave the skin with a flattened rim. If she is to continue using a rolling pin, she could roll the skin to about two-thirds of the final size and open the skin the rest of the way out to full size by hand. This is a method that is often used to train beginning pizza makers until they get enough skill to open the skins up to full size entirely by hand. Tom Lehmann has discussed this method in a PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/hand-tossed-dough.6410/#post-41080. But, whatever method you wife uses, it will help to make the rim larger at the outset.

I note also that you are baking on a stone. Sometimes it is possible to get a larger rim using a pizza stone by increasing the bake temperature, for example, to 525-550 degrees F, but the risk of the bottom crust burning or turning prematurely brown increases because of the large amount of sugar in the PJ clone dough as it caramelizes once the unbaked pizza hits the very hot stone. You could try a higher stone temperature as mentioned and, as soon as the rim puffs up, lower the oven temperature and slip a pizza screen under the pizza to keep the bottom crust from burning or turning prematurely brown. Another approach along the same lines would be to increase the hydration of the dough by a few to several percent. However, this will change the texture of the finished rim. Also, the dough will be wetter and may be harder to handle. But these are the kinds of changes you would have to consider. Simply baking a pizza longer will not achieve a larger rim. The final rim size is formed pretty much in the period right after loading the unbaked pizza onto the stone. I might add here that whatever approach you decide to use, you should let the stone preheat for about 45 minutes to an hour. Thirty minutes might not be long enough.

Please let me know what you decide to do and the results you achieve.

Peter

Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #773 on: Yesterday at 04:18:02 PM »
Jason,

From what I have seen from Google Images, there are some Papa John's pizzas that can have enlarged rims that are of above average height but that is normally not the case. It could be that the top heat in the conveyor ovens that PJ uses could lead to an oversized rim but it is also possible that the rim was intentionally or inadvertently made larger by the worker in opening the dough ball to form the skin.

Since this thread is a PJ clone thread, I have tried to instruct members on how PJ makes its skins. Norma posted a video in Reply 679 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg292489#msg292489 that does a nice job of showing how a skin is formed at her local PJ store. Later, in Reply 547 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482, I posted additional material on this subject, including a video that shows everything in pretty much slow motion.

From your post, it wasn't clear whether your wife has been forming the skins with a rolling pin. If that is the case, the rolling pin will force a lot of the gas out of the skin and also leave the skin with a flattened rim. If she is to continue using a rolling pin, she could roll the skin to about two-thirds of the final size and open the skin the rest of the way out to full size by hand. This is a method that is often used to train beginning pizza makers until they get enough skill to open the skins up to full size entirely by hand. Tom Lehmann has discussed this method in a PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/hand-tossed-dough.6410/#post-41080. But, whatever method you wife uses, it will help to make the rim larger at the outset.

I note also that you are baking on a stone. Sometimes it is possible to get a larger rim using a pizza stone by increasing the bake temperature, for example, to 525-550 degrees F, but the risk of the bottom crust burning or turning prematurely brown increases because of the large amount of sugar in the PJ clone dough as it caramelizes once the unbaked pizza hits the very hot stone. You could try a higher stone temperature as mentioned and, as soon as the rim puffs up, lower the oven temperature and slip a pizza screen under the pizza to keep the bottom crust from burning or turning prematurely brown. Another approach along the same lines would be to increase the hydration of the dough by a few to several percent. However, this will change the texture of the finished rim. Also, the dough will be wetter and may be harder to handle. But these are the kinds of changes you would have to consider. Simply baking a pizza longer will not achieve a larger rim. The final rim size is formed pretty much in the period right after loading the unbaked pizza onto the stone. I might add here that whatever approach you decide to use, you should let the stone preheat for about 45 minutes to an hour. Thirty minutes might not be long enough.

Please let me know what you decide to do and the results you achieve.

Peter


Peter,

I let her watch a video I believe you posted, that shows how to roll the dough out by hand by spinning/kneading it from the middle until it is spread out how you prefer.

Her technique seems pretty good and the dough is a nice circle which almost always seems pretty evenly rolled out. She is kind of a perfectionist and that's why I let her do it instead of me to be honest.

Everything else is consistent from the way I make the dough, to the heating of the stone, and the time in the oven. If cooking it longer doesn't help, then it seems from what you said, that maybe she should be making the rim a little thicker maybe when rolling it out?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #774 on: Yesterday at 04:26:54 PM »
Peter,

I let her watch a video I believe you posted, that shows how to roll the dough out by hand by spinning/kneading it from the middle until it is spread out how you prefer.

Her technique seems pretty good and the dough is a nice circle which almost always seems pretty evenly rolled out. She is kind of a perfectionist and that's why I let her do it instead of me to be honest.

Everything else is consistent from the way I make the dough, to the heating of the stone, and the time in the oven. If cooking it longer doesn't help, then it seems from what you said, that maybe she should be making the rim a little thicker maybe when rolling it out?
Jason,

Yes, it's worth forming a larger rim. If the dough ball is opened up by hand, then your wife might want to press the dough from the middle to the edge of the skin to force the gases to the outer edge and hopefully form a larger rim at the outset. Otherwise, you may have to resort to using a higher hydration value and an elevated oven temperature, yet being careful not to burn the bottom crust as earlier discussed.

Peter


 

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