Author Topic: Sour dough starters  (Read 32730 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2005, 12:00:08 PM »
Steve

Sorry but  I am new and was wondering who is Jeff Varasano. I also did not know that Patsy's used a starter...


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2005, 12:08:35 PM »
pizzanapoletana,

I am not 100% sure Patsy's incorporates a starter either.

If they don't, then I would like to know how they consistently produce a crust which is light years ahead of any other pizzeria crust I have personally tasted. The crust is so light and possesses such a complex layered crunch, how else could they be doing it? One theory I have heard whispered is that they use a much higher hydration percentage than the other coal oven joints. Could that contribute to it as well?

I would also be interested in your professional opinion as to the viability of buying raw dough (from your favorite pizzeria) and using it as the basis for a home-made starter. With the thought being that you will then be able to replicate the pizzeria's crust flavor and perhaps some of it's properties. Would the pizzeria actually have to be using a daily starter for this approach to work?

I'm confused...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 12:24:17 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2005, 01:01:00 PM »
PF

You must travel to Naples ASAP. Only then you will realize that soft/light Crust can be achieved easily.

The starter is a plus, that result in the best products ever, but I have friend that can make a soft/light pizza with commercial yeast. The secret is the idratation, a medium  strenght flour, and long, very long fermentation period at room temperature, which in turn means very little ammount of yeast.

With your last question you have touched a delicate argument for me... In fact it is the thesis behind the chapter on Natural leavening in my book.  I hope you will forgive me for not to be able to say too much about it, but let me tell you that if the occurance of few factors is consistent, what you suggest is a possibility.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2005, 01:18:06 PM »
I've got to buy your book. When will it be available?
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2005, 01:30:24 PM »
The book hopefully will be available in the summer.

Now, I have searched the forum and got around who is Jeff and the Patsy's starter.

As I said before, I have different starters at home and all behave different and taste different. The key is to avoid cross contamination.

Steve, therefore, I 'd like to advise you to read my early post, as it is my understanding that you will have 4 starters going, and this is a great risk for cross-contamination.

Jeff, reading your first post on the Petsy's and Johnny's starters, let me tell you that if one took over the other is because some cross contamination occurred and the patsy's strain was stronger. However if you take your current Petsy's starter in a laboratory for analisys, I am confident they will find some strains of yeast and bacteria from the Johnney dough. I am saying this because you said that at the time you were new and you lost Johnney one, but if you did something that cause crosscontamination, most probably you did it  both ways.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 09:37:42 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline varasano

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Cross Contamination
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2005, 04:25:54 PM »
After the cross contamination incident I gave up on the whole culture for a while and about 5 months later got a new Patsy's dough and started over again. So I think I'm clean.

Your pizza's look excellent. I think that yours and mine are the most neopolitan looking on the site.

----

Steve, I saw your mason jar photos. I'm sure you know this already, but check out my video on my page to see what the culture looks like when I actually use it. I don't use it if it has hooch.  I do at least 2 feeding cycles and get it all bubbly before using it.  I agree that a long slow rise is needed for a light crust. I do a cold rise. A long room temperature rise with very little yeast is very interesting. I'll try that someday. I'm interested in other's comments on it.

Jeff

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2005, 07:15:22 PM »
Thanks for clarifying the cross-contamination dubts.

Thanks also for the compliment about my pizza. Just one thing: Mine is a 100% Neapolitan pizza cooked in under 2 minutes in a  Neapolitan wood burning oven. I have changed the first picture I have posted because that pizza was cooked in an oven which was still cold, thus i baked for about 2 minutes something, almost burning on a side...

It is vital to use the starter at the peak of activity, especially when using tiny quantities.

Take care

Offline Steve

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Re: Cross Contamination
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2005, 08:22:18 AM »
Steve, I saw your mason jar photos. I'm sure you know this already, but check out my video on my page to see what the culture looks like when I actually use it. I don't use it if it has hooch.  I do at least 2 feeding cycles and get it all bubbly before using it.  I agree that a long slow rise is needed for a light crust. I do a cold rise. A long room temperature rise with very little yeast is very interesting. I'll try that someday. I'm interested in other's comments on it.

Peter Reinhart says to simply pour off (discard) the "hooch" before using it to make bread as the hooch adds a vinegary taste to the finished product. Ed Wood from sourdo.com says to stir the hooch back in and use it that way... I'm sure that Mr. Wood enjoys the tanginess of real sourgdough bread, but I dislike it and will be using Reinharts method.

By the way, I made two pizzas the other night. One with IDY, the other with the Patsy's starter. Let me tell you... there was a HUGE difference in taste. But, alas, I followed Mr. Wood's instructions and stirred the hooch back in before I used it. And, the pizza crust tasted like SF sourdough bread... very tangy.... I didn't like it, but my wife did. I will be trying again soon without the hooch.

Offline varasano

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2005, 04:00:14 PM »
If your starter has hooch, it's at least one and possible several feeding cycles away from being ready to make dough.   It should be bubbly and have no hooch. Were you able to download my short video? It gets hooch after a few days in the fridge with no more flour to eat.

I stir the hooch back in, like Ed, but I feed and 'wash' it so it's diluted out most of the time.  I'm surprised you said it tastes like SF. Did you buy SF from Ed? It's possible that the patsy's is already dead. It may have been taken over already. It should taste nothing at all like SF. I hope that's not the case, but do you think it's possible?

Jeff


Offline varasano

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2005, 04:50:15 PM »
Hey Marco,

Well I can't compete with the wood oven, But I'm cooking very hot (825 F) for about a 2:15 pie.  Your pizzas look SO much better than that other person you were arguing with online ;-)

I've read over a lot of your posts now and I'm going to try out some of your methods. I'm too busy to do it this month but I'm going to get to is sometime. You are maybe the first person here I think I can learn from. Check out my webpage, if you haven't already.

Jeff

Offline canadave

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2005, 06:32:50 PM »
Quote
You are maybe the first person here I think I can learn from.


Glad you're here too.... ::)  I guess the rest of us here have to pick it up a notch, eh?

Offline Steve

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2005, 06:49:32 PM »
I'm surprised you said it tastes like SF. Did you buy SF from Ed? It's possible that the patsy's is already dead. It may have been taken over already. It should taste nothing at all like SF. I hope that's not the case, but do you think it's possible?

Yes, my crust was very tangy (it rose nicely). I ordered the Italian starters from Ed, no SF. I made sure that I used sanitized mason jars and kept them loosely sealed. I used different (clean) spoons to stir in the new flour/water, so I don't think any cross comtimination occured. I'm going to try again without the hooch and see what happens.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2005, 07:03:39 PM »
Guys

Any starter if wrongly refreshed, may well become acetic. It is a matter of quantity of original starter vs refreshment,  temperature and time.

To correct this there are many ways,  which I am sure you may be aware of one from Ed book (I use a different method).

The presence of hooch, just show that the starter has become dorment. The strter should be used at peak of activity and that is way before the  hooch begin to form.


Jeff

Nice web page and nice pictures. I prefer fresh taste on pizza and I would suggest you trying not to bubble the cheese off.

Look at my pizza and all Ron's pictures from Naples on the other post, you will notice that the cheese is never over cooked or brown.

Ciao



Offline pftaylor

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2005, 08:49:27 PM »
pizzanapoletana,
Thanks for pointing out a few of the many differences between American pizza and authentic Italian neapolitan pizza. They truly are different animals aren't they? They don't even remotely look like each other. Must be due to, well, just about everything not just the bubbled cheese. From oven type, ingredients, and preparation technique.
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Offline varasano

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2005, 09:14:51 AM »
Hey Marco,

Lately I've been putting the cheese on in fewer, bigger pieces, rather than spreading it out. This is keeping it from over bubbling. But I am having a real problem finding quality fresh Mozz in my town.  You can kind of see the problem i'm having from the photo's.  The cheese is almost breaking down into ricotta.  It's weird.  Even if I put it on in big pieces, in just a minute under the 800F temps it's melted away, spread out and bubbling.   

I'm anxious to try your very little yeast method and I may even get to it this week.

Jeff

Offline varasano

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2005, 09:22:27 AM »
I recently tried cheese from MozzNY.com.  Raw it was much better than what I get locally. But cooked it was only a little better.  I was surprised because it seemed very different but then broke down in a similar manner. The actual browning of the cheese that you see in the photo is due to the second kind of dry sliced cheese that I put underneath the sauce.  I do that most times, but not always. I know it's not authentic, but I've enjoyed the change that it's made in my pie.  But I'm going to leave it off when i do some experiments using your recipe. I want to get as close to authentic as possible.

Does anyone know any other place that ships high quality fresh mozz?

Jeff

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2005, 09:54:04 AM »
For the past several weeks I have totally eliminated the use of commerical yeast. I have posted numerous photos of the finished product with closeups of the dough before cooking. Bubbles galore. The key is to whip up the biga into a frenzy which eliminates the requirement for a commercial yeast booster.

In fact, When a properly tweaked biga is boosted with commercial yeast, I couldn't control the over generation of bubbles which caused blister holes in the finished crust.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 10:54:24 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline pam

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Re: Caputo Recipe
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2005, 01:23:30 PM »
Hi PTfTylor

you can probably have a try with this recipe, which I have posted some time ago on an Italian pizza forum:

1650g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
1 lt Water
50g of Criscito (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast
45g Sea salt

In baker's percentages:

100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria
60.6% water
3% starter (0.152% fresh yeast)
2.73% sea salt
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2009, 08:31:35 AM »
Pizza Napoletana,

Thank you for your reply.

While I was awaiting your reply, I did some calculations based on your recipe.
         


Hi Peter,
Where is Marco's recipe that you are referring to posted? 

Matt

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2009, 09:14:30 AM »
Matt,

This is the one I was referring to: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915.html#msg12915 (Reply 4). You should keep in mind that the recipe was given as a starting point for our members to play with. I have been informed that it is not the dough formulation that Marco himself uses. That remains his secret.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2009, 09:30:23 AM »
Matt,

This is the one I was referring to: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915.html#msg12915 (Reply 4). You should keep in mind that the recipe was given as a starting point for our members to play with. I have been informed that it is not the dough formulation that Marco himself uses. That remains his secret.

Peter

Thanks Peter,
It's a good starting point.  I am going to play around with it until I get results that I am happy with.  Can't wait for the good weather so that I can start!

Matt

Offline s00da

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2009, 10:43:53 AM »
Matt,

I have so far used the Ischia 6 times with amazing results. To me, the most important thing was managing room temp. fermentation. I started with Marco's recipe but then increased hydration and decreased salt. My dough is mixed using room temp. water by gradually adding flour over an approximate 30 mins duration. It is then rested for 25 mins. and then punched and folded for a couple of minutes before placing it in a plastic container. The dough is then fermented for 16 hours at 77 F (after that it will start over-fermenting) until it's then divided to 5 balls that I leave to proof for 4.5 hours before baking.

The pies are coming out very beautiful with a nice char and an amber color. Oven spring is just perfect but I noticed that it had more spring when I use to ferment the dough for 12 hours initially as I was having problems with over-fermentation.

The Ischia flavor is almost undetectable and currently I'm trying to enhance this area by fermenting the dough for longer time in a cooler place that I found at home  ;D 72 F should let me shoot for longer time I hope.

Note that I'm replacing 00 with AP flour that's weaker than American AP flour and thus gives the desirable soft pies. We have no Caputo suppliers here but I guess I was lucky with this AP flour.

Below are my current percentages that yield 5 ~250g balls that are stretched to 12" pies:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    774.02 g  |  27.3 oz | 1.71 lbs
Water (62.02%):    480.05 g  |  16.93 oz | 1.06 lbs
Salt (1.795%):    13.89 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.49 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
Total (163.815%):   1267.97 g | 44.73 oz | 2.8 lbs | TF = 0.079092
Single Ball:   253.59 g | 8.95 oz | 0.56 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    12 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs
Water:    12 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs
Total:    24 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    762.02 g | 26.88 oz | 1.68 lbs
Water:    468.05 g | 16.51 oz | 1.03 lbs
Salt:    13.89 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.49 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
Preferment:    24 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs
Total:    1267.97 g | 44.73 oz | 2.8 lbs  | TF = 0.079092

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2009, 11:04:09 AM »
Giovanni mentioned a pending book several times but I don't see it in the list of books in the forum.  Does anyone know if it was ever published?  If so, could you give the details of where to find it?  Thanks.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2009, 11:32:56 AM »
Giovanni mentioned a pending book several times but I don't see it in the list of books in the forum.  Does anyone know if it was ever published?  If so, could you give the details of where to find it?  Thanks.

I don't think it was ever completed.

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Re: Sour dough starters
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2009, 11:35:41 AM »
UnConundrum,

I believe that giovanni was referring to the book Classic Sourdoughs, by Ed Wood of Sourdough International. As I was scanning the posts, I saw pizzanapoletana (Marco) make reference to a "book" and, indeed, at one time he contemplated publishing a book, but, alas, it did not materialize. I'm sure that Marco would have informed us of such a momentous event.

Peter


 

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