Author Topic: Bromated Flour  (Read 11817 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21289
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Bromated Flour
« on: June 03, 2009, 08:11:37 PM »
I have been looking for information about bromated flour.  I see that potassium bromate is added to flour as an oxidizing agent to gluten.  It make the flour more stretchable and elastic.  Does it make a lighter and more open dough in the finished product?  I am looking to make Pizza with All Trumps which is bromated.  Is is true some states banned this additive in their flour?
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 08:22:59 PM »
Quote
Is is true some states banned this additive in their flour?

That's true.

Bromated flour is legal in the US, although state-by-state labeling laws require the manufacturer to clearly label the flour as such. And a lot of companies nowadays add ascorbic acid to the flour instead of potassium bromate, because it is classified as a carcinogenic and might be harmful to your health.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21769
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 08:35:07 PM »
Norma,

This is a very controversial matter. For a brief description of potassium bromate, see the entry for that ingredient in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P.

If you do a forum search on the term "bromate", you will get two pages of hits. One of the more contentious threads is the one at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4867.msg41290.html#msg41290.

Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is a common substitute for potassium bromate but it performs differently and is not nearly as effective.

Peter

Offline Cass

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 73
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 08:44:14 PM »
I am looking to make Pizza with All Trumps which is bromated.
AT makes a bromated, and an unbromated.  :)
If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.
Epictetus

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 11:57:48 PM »
Does it make a lighter and more open dough in the finished product? 
Norma

Bromate allows you to mix your dough for less time, while still allowing the gluten mesh to retain the same amount of gas.   This shorter mix and better gas retention helps you to end up with a pizza that is tender and soft, even when baked at low temperatures.  It is especially helpful for people who like to bake their crusts a bit longer to obtain more char.   Typically this procedure could make a pizza too tough, but not with bromate.   It tends to make pizza lighter and fluffier, yes.....but I wouldn't say more open.  It actually tends to make smaller voids, so I would call that less open.  I hope I have helped.   

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21769
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 09:05:49 AM »
Norma,

For Tom Lehmann's view on the subject, see his post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=30723#30723.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21289
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 11:03:46 AM »
Essen1, Peter, Cas, and Scottr,
Thank you all for helping me understand this topic more.  I wonder if other countries are banning the bromate from their flours, how is the US allowing it?  ::)  I still will try the All Trumps and see how it performs.  I read Novembers posts about this subject and that was very interesting.  I wonder how many people know about this subject? 
Thanks again,
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline canadianbacon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1041
  • Age: 49
  • DoughBoy
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 03:01:03 PM »
I'm all for a good pizza, but I'm glad I'm in a country that has the sense to ban such a product.

Anything that has the "potential" of being carcinogenic won't be entering into my ingredient list, even-if it was available.

I'd like to know how many pizzerias out there are actually using bromated flour..... is it legal for a pizza joint to use this type of flour and
not advice clientele ?

Kind of scary if you ask me. 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-bromated-flour.htm

Quote:

Bromated flour is flour which has been enriched with potassium bromate, a maturing agent which promotes gluten development in doughs. Some commercial bakers use bromated flour because it yields dependable results, and it makes stronger, more elastic dough which can stand up to bread hooks and other commercial baking tools. Home bakers may choose to use it for much the same reason, when they can obtain bromated flour. Ascorbic acid has replaced potassium bromate as a food additive in a number of areas.

Potassium bromate is classified as a potential carcinogen, meaning that it may be harmful when consumed.
In theory, the substance is supposed to bake out of bread dough as it cooks, but if a residue remains behind in the bread, it could be harmful in the long term. A careful balance is required of manufacturers, since they must add enough of the substance to bromated flour to make it perform as expected while not adding too much. Many flour producers have switched to ascorbic acid, which has similar properties without the potential health risk.

In some countries, bromated flour has actually been banned out of concerns about health risks. In the United States, bromated flour is legal, although state by state labeling laws may dictate that a flour producer clearly label flours which contain potassium bromate. Some organizations such as the Center for Science in the Public Interest have lobbied the Food and Drug Administration to ban potassium bromate as a food additive in the United States. Many bakeries and flour mills pride themselves on using unbromated flour, and market their products accordingly.

Typically, bromated flour is used in bread production. Adding potassium bromate makes the bread stronger and more elastic, and also promotes big rises of bread. The resulting bread tends to be strong and springy, well suited to commercial production especially. The substance also bleaches the flour slightly, creating the creamy white color which most people associate with flour. It tends to be used in low protein flours more commonly, since these flours do not develop enough gluten on their own.

Consumers who are concerned about using bromated flour can seek out flours which do not contain potassium bromate. When baking bread, a high gluten flour is very useful, and many flour mills formulate products specifically for bread production which will be clearly labeled as “bread flour.” A number of options including whole wheat and white unbleached are available.

/ end of quote
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2009, 03:10:05 PM »
I know what flour is being used at about 100 different pizzerias around the us.  Other than those using caputo for neapolitan style pizza (which is not many in the grand scheme of things), pizzerias in California, or Chris Bianco making his NY/Neapolitan hybrid, I only know of 3 pizzerias not using bromated flour. 

« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 10:20:16 PM by scott r »

Offline canadianbacon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1041
  • Age: 49
  • DoughBoy
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 03:18:03 PM »
so with that said, I guess the theory of somebody eating a slice of pie, and then walking around like it was the 1960s, and being high
is basically not happening.  Nor has anyone fell extremely ill, or died, and I guess you can't overdose if you eat a full pie to yourself,
so perhaps the threat is just overblown. 

I wonder if the major chains like Pizza Hut and Dominos use this type of flour...  hmm.


I know what flour is being used at about 100 different pizzerias around the us.  Other than those using caputo for neapolitan style pizza, which is only about 10 or so pizzerias, or chris bianco making his NY/Neapolitan hybrid, I only know of 3 pizzerias not using bromated flour. 


Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 03:48:04 PM »
they once did, but no major chain uses it any more.  (I guess I should have mentioned that it was only independently owned pizzerias that I was talking about above).    Remember when bertucci's, Domino's, Pizza hut, etc, had way better pizza.   Well, guess what changed

This should tell you something.   If they are willing to let their product go down hill because of an ingredient that might be bad for you,  it is probably bad for you!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21769
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 06:49:37 PM »
Since bromates are a problem in California, it seems to me that the big chains would find it easier to go with nonbromated flours rather than go through the hassles of trying to work around California, as by re-configuring their dough manufacturing facilities that source California with product.

Peter

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 10:28:22 PM »
Peter, I have recently started buying ingredients from the supplier who stocks Papa Gino's with their raw ingredients.   Yesterday, when I was looking over the shoulder of one of their employees at the list of available flours I saw that Papa Ginos had bought hundreds of bags of Spring King flour from horizon milling.   http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/springking.shtm

This flour is listed as containing bromate.   They have no sign of a non bromated version.   Is it legal for Papa Gino's to list their pizza ingredients on their website without including the bromate?   

I was saddened when I found that they are using this flour, as I have often recommended that friends and family eat their pizza because of the lack of bromate.   

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21769
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 10:51:45 PM »
scott,

I read dough formulations and ingredients listings all the time and pay very close attention to these kinds of things and the ingredients lists almost never state whether the flour is bromated. Sometimes you can get the answer if you know the brand of flour and can find the specs for it. I think it is legal just to state "flour" in the ingredients lists (some use "wheat flour" as the description). I don't even think they have to state whether the flour is bleached either, although you will occasionally see bleached flour listed. As you know, bleached flours and bromated flours often go together. In Papa Gino's case, because they are so regional and concentrated in the Northeast, using a bromated flour is not an issue for them.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 10:52:08 PM »
Quote
In theory, the substance is supposed to bake out of bread dough as it cooks, but if a residue remains behind in the bread, it could be harmful in the long term.

I think you'd have to consume numerous loaves per week in order to become sick or develop some sort of long term damage. But that is in regards to bread. I assume the same applies for pizzas but who's eating so much pizza or bread that the effects could be potentially harmful?

Quote
so with that said, I guess the theory of somebody eating a slice of pie, and then walking around like it was the 1960s, and being high
is basically not happening.  Nor has anyone fell extremely ill, or died, and I guess you can't overdose if you eat a full pie to yourself,
so perhaps the threat is just overblown.  


That reminds me of the Tombstone ads on TV.

"And what would you like on your Tombstone?" "Oh, just put down I overdosed on it!"  ;D

But seriously though...I'm wondering what amounts of potassium bromate one would have to consume in order to become seriously ill?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline pacoast

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 11:00:09 PM »
I wouldn't knowingly eat something made with bromated flour, nor use it. It's a group 2B suspected carcinogen & a highly reactive oxidizer. It is known to cause cancer in animals. It has not yet been proven to cause cancer in people. But then cigarettes were not proven to cause cancer for a long time after a reasonable person would have deduced that they were bad for your health.

According to Wikipedia
Quote
Potassium bromate has been banned from use in food products in Europe, as well as the United Kingdom in 1990, and Canada in 1994, and most other countries. It was banned in Sri Lanka in 2001[3] and China in 2005. It is also banned in Nigeria, Brazil and Peru.

In the United States, it has not been banned. The FDA sanctioned the use of bromate before the Delaney clause of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act went into effect in 1958 — which bans carcinogenic substances — so that it is more difficult for it to now be banned. Instead, since 1991 the FDA has urged bakers to voluntarily stop using it. In California a warning label is required when bromated flour is used.


If your pizza is not fully baked, you will probably end up eating residual bromate. And in point of fact, as Tom Lehmann points out is of little benefit for those who are not making frozen dough. Even in that niche application it is helpful, rather than essential. It will eventually go the way of partially hydrogenated (trans) fats. If you want to eat some now, while it's still a legal additive (in the US), that's your choice.

.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 11:15:17 PM by pacoast »

Offline pcampbell

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 767
  • Age: 33
  • Location: VT & NJ
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 08:24:23 AM »
Almost every mom & pop place I have ever checked out uses All Trumps or Pillsbury.  If you ask over on PMQ, a verysmall handful of people are NOT using bromated flour.

My guess is that most consumers do not know what bromated flour is or the potential dangers of it.

Anything that is organic, is of course not bromated also.     
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 08:46:15 AM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21289
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 09:40:17 AM »
Here is an article from the AIB International on using potassium bromate if anyone is interested in reading it.

https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

Norma
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 09:42:40 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1216
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2009, 10:31:27 AM »
I was thinking about this papa ginos thing that scott brought up,  and the way bread products are labeled.  Are they allowed to not include bromate as an ingredient because they are so convinced that none remains in the product after it has been baked? -marc

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21769
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2009, 01:20:31 PM »
I was thinking about this papa ginos thing that scott brought up,  and the way bread products are labeled.  Are they allowed to not include bromate as an ingredient because they are so convinced that none remains in the product after it has been baked? -marc


Marc,

That is a very perceptive observation--one that would never have occurred to me. However, I think it would be presumptuous for Papa Gino's to make such a claim since, as scott r noted at Reply 74 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71086.html#msg71086 and at Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71459.html#msg71459, the Papa Gino's pizzas tend to have undercooked or even raw dough and a gumline in their crusts, which could suggest higher levels of bromate in their baked pizzas.  Also, as you can see at the Papa Gino's website at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=ingredients, the ingredients list given for their "Pizza Shell" comprises "Wheat flour, dry yeast, salt, water ". Clearly, that is not the correct order of ingredients by predominance, by weight. That suggests a level of unsophistication or just carelessness or ignorance on the part of the person who wrote the copy.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 01:23:38 PM by Pete-zza »


 

pizzapan