Author Topic: Bromated Flour  (Read 12392 times)

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Offline 2112

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2009, 12:13:51 PM »
Quote
I'm all for a good pizza, but I'm glad I'm in a country that has the sense to ban such a product.

Anything that has the "potential" of being carcinogenic won't be entering into my ingredient list, even-if it was available.

I'd like to know how many pizzerias out there are actually using bromated flour..... is it legal for a pizza joint to use this type of flour and
not advice clientele ?

Kind of scary if you ask me.


I imagine the list of Pizzerias and Bakeries using bromated flour is greater than we could possibly imagine.

I understand what you are saying but being a 'potential carcinogen' is not the same as 'Being a Carcinogen'!!

Everywhere we turn there are 'real carcinogens' lurking with far greater affects than bromated flour.

Gas fumes that we inhale whilst filling our vehicles at the pump. The gasoline itself and all the combustion byproducts in the air we breathe from the exhaust! Engine oil. Engine antifreeze, not to mention every engine additive out there.

Anyone who smokes, and those who are subject to second hand smoke. Chewing tobacco is another.

Wood stains, polyurethane, Spackle, paints, batteries, asbestos, glue, floor tiles, rubber, weed killers, garden herbicides and the like.

The list is a mile long. What about cooking meats at high heat so that an outside char is obtained.

And last but not least the common household charcoal grill!!!

Do any of us own one of those?

So to sum up, I am by no means saying that we should not care what we put into our bodies.

My friends there are many carcinogens that enter our bodies whether we like it or not. But to put it all into perspective, I do not see how a little bromate in our flour is going to tun the tide and make or break our health.

Best of all, we do have the choice whether to use a flour with bromate or not.

Vince
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 03:10:19 PM by 2112 »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2009, 01:16:34 PM »
Over the weekend, I sent a message to Buddy's Pizza in Detroit via their website in which I inquired whether the flours used to make their pizzas are bromated. Today, I received a reply saying that the flour used to make their regular crust pizza dough is bromated.

Interestingly, the person who sent the reply was not aware of any health issues surrounding the use of bromated flours. So, I responded back and cited some sources for the person to read about bromated flours.

Peter

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2009, 10:30:51 PM »
I agree pretty much with what Vince said. Should it be a concern, yes. Do I use it, yes. But I think there are bigger fish to worry about. A guy probably get more carcinogens grilling meat and sitting around the fire pit drinking beer and smoking a cigar. And what the hell, 2012 is right around the corner, right?? Git 'er done......
Jon  :o
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Offline pacoast

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2009, 10:37:06 PM »
[..] and smoking a cigar.

That's probably an apt comparison. I imagine that the risks from bromated flour would be similar to smoking cigars. Will you get cancer from either? Maybe. Will it take years to find out? Most likely. If a large group of people ingest bromine this way over a long time period, will some of them get cancer. Damn likely.

A lot of us tend to discount "far in the future" risks like this. But they are also easy to prevent, if you are so inclined. Or not. As always, your choice.

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Offline 2112

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 04:25:49 PM »
PACoast,

I hear what you are saying. When we are in good health it's hard to see the future and ourselves being ill from the affects of our actions today. How much bromated flour products have we consumed over the years? Am I taking a chance using Kryol with bromate? I sure hope not.

I am not trying to turn a deaf ear to facts but we as Americans must be taking one hell of a risk if we are looking the other way when bromated flour could be the big attrition factor to the members on this board.   :-\

I would like to think I will not be stopped in my tracks because of the little bromated flour I use or the products we eat that came from bromated flour. I have never seen bromated flour advertised with regards to the food we eat.
Maybe I just don't look hard enough.

How much bread, off the supermarket shelves, comes from flour that contains bromate?

I am curious if anyone has some answers.

Vince
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Offline pacoast

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 05:17:42 PM »
Vince, I hope that you & I won't ever suffer from the bromine that we've ingested. I'm sure that I have ingested lots of bromated flour in the past from various bakeries & restaurants. And I won't claim that I'm interrogating every baker before buying that pastry in the display case.

But I am a big believer in tilting the odds in my favour as often as I can. Which means that I try to minimize eating stuff that I know is bad for me. I can't be certain that bromine will cause cancer, but it probably does if you eat enough of it. So I will decline that pastry in the display case if I know in advance that it was made with bromated flour. I won't eat a pizza from a shop if I know that they use bromated flour. And I sure won't buy bromated flour for my own baking. The same thing with BPA laced plastic containers or anything that says it has trans fats in it. Will any of this stuff kill any of us? Who knows, but its seems like a good idea to minimize one's exposure to known risks. Or at least that's how I look at it.

.

Offline November

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2009, 06:37:56 AM »
its seems like a good idea to minimize one's exposure to known risks.

See, now you're just trying to be logical.  You know people hate that.  ;D

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2009, 05:57:16 PM »
I was just talking to the largest dough producer in my area today who was really knowledgeable about dough formulations,  and has a pretty good product as well.  He labels his dough as all natural,  but it is indeed bromated.  He said the fda allows it.  Talking to him more I asked if he thought he could make as good of a dough without bromate,  and his answer was yes,  but the formula would be slightly different.  As he pionted out,  Canada and California seem to be doing fine without it.  Then he started to say maybe he should stop using it.  I said good idea.  What really disturbed me is that he said "all" the great NYC coal fired places dump handfuls of additional bromate to thier flours to further increase strength and spring!  It was spoken as truth so I do not doubt him at all.  He really knew his stuff and has been doing this for 21 years.  Adding this additional bromate surely takes them over thier legal limit,  and just disgusts me.  I never would have thought to add more garbage to an already polluted product.  -marc

Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2009, 10:50:10 PM »
I just bought some King Arthur Sir Lancelot Hi-Gluten flour this week.  I will see how this compares with the All Trumps and the Kyrol.  Hopefully it will perform as well.  Will let you know.
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2009, 10:58:17 PM »
The health of one's customers and patrons should never be compromised for a 'better' product or its features, such as added strength or oven spring.  >:(

There are too many companies that do it willingly already. Just watch the food commercials on TV and you know what I mean.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2009, 11:13:56 PM »
Mike,
Since I am still new to pizza making and experimenting, I have been trying different flours.  I don't want to put my customers at risk. That is why I have been trying to find a high-gluten flour to experiment with.  This is the first time my local supplier had it in stock. 
My granddaughter just found out the other week she has gestational diabetes.  We went to the nutritionist and I was surprised to learn all the information she gave us about how all foods effect you. 
I have eaten many pizzas for years and just learned on this forum that bromated flour is controversial.  I never thought when I ate pizza that there might be some bad ingredients in the flour. 
It makes me wonder how many people in the US know about the bromate or so many other things they add to processed food? 
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2009, 11:27:05 PM »
Mike,
Since I am still new to pizza making and experimenting, I have been trying different flours.  I don't want to put my customers at risk. That is why I have been trying to find a high-gluten flour to experiment with.  This is the first time my local supplier had it in stock. 
My granddaughter just found out the other week she has gestational diabetes.  We went to the nutritionist and I was surprised to learn all the information she gave us about how all foods effect you. 
I have eaten many pizzas for years and just learned on this forum that bromated flour is controversial.  I never thought when I ate pizza that there might be some bad ingredients in the flour. 
It makes me wonder how many people in the US know about the bromate or so many other things they add to processed food? 
Norma

Norma,

My rant wasn't directed at you in any way. I admire what you have done with your business at the Market so far and your determination should be an inspiration to many of us on this board. I know it is for me, at least.

But I'm getting kind of sick and tired of the fact that big food businesses are putting the public at risk just to cut corners on the costs of their food. Or do you really believe a $0.99 burger at McSucks is really made from prime USDA beef? Or how about a $5.99 extra large pie from Pizza Hut and the second one is only $0.05?

Since it's already extremely hard to find other good quality items that don't cost you a month's paycheck and aren't made in China, the food industry shouldn't add to it by putting the public at risk.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your Granddaughter. It's always tough to deal with such occurrences but today's health care/medicine is much better than it was just 5 years ago. Have faith.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 11:28:58 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2009, 12:06:32 AM »
FWIW Norma, you might try getting some ascorbic acid powder as it provides the same effects as bromate. I believe it takes more ascorbic acid to do the same thing as bromate though, so it would take some experimentation.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2009, 12:13:32 AM »
Trogdor33,
Thanks for the tip about the ascorbic acid powder.  Do you know where I can purchase it?  I will first try the flour and see how it works out.  Then if I have problems with the dough and crust will try more experimenting.
Your help is appreciate!
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2009, 12:21:36 AM »
Mike,
I didn't take any offense of what you said.  I also agree the whole food industry shouldn't be putting ingredients in our food just to make the almighty dollar.
Thank you for saying you like what I am doing with my market stand.  Who knows if it will be successful, but I will keep on trying.
I was lucky to have a good father that could build or fix anything and a good mother that always home cooked meals.  Many people today aren't so fortunate.  At least they instilled in me to keep on trying.
I never believed that money is the key to success.  It's about how you feel about what you are doing.
Norma
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Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2009, 01:00:20 AM »
Trogdor33,
Thanks for the tip about the ascorbic acid powder.  Do you know where I can purchase it?  I will first try the flour and see how it works out.  Then if I have problems with the dough and crust will try more experimenting.
Your help is appreciate!
Norma

I buy it at the local health food store, it's about $27/lb from their bulk bins (we all take 2gm/day of it in the winter to keep us from getting sick). You can buy it online here: http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/acids-c-1.html but it is much more expensive, so I would suggest that only to test and then find a cheaper source if you decide to use it in your product. If you do order from them, get a bag of lactic acid too, I learned from November that you can make your dough taste like sourdough by using that, I finally tried it today and it turned out great. As far as the ascorbic acid, I used a gram for the 3lb dough batch (KASL, 64% hydration) I baked today, but I plan on ramping it up with each batch until I find the sweet spot.

-Joe
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 01:02:13 AM by Trogdor33 »
For all you non-geeks who may be wondering what the name trogdor is all about, have a look here: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2009, 09:12:08 AM »
It dawned on me recently how pervasive the use of bromated pizza flours actually is. For example, scott r recently told us that the regional Papa Gino's chain in the Northeast uses bromated flours (I emailed a confirmational message on this matter that went unanswered), and I discovered recently that the small regional chain Buddy's in the Detroit area also uses bromated flours. It is also common for pizzerias that make Sicilian doughs, which benefit from long, final rises, to use bromated flours. I recently had a very nice Greek style pizza in a small local pizzeria that used a brand of flour that I knew was bromated. All Trumps is possibly the most popular flour used by professionals to make the NY style.

Ascorbic acid is just Vitamin C. I bought a powdered form of Vitamin C from a vitamin store, but it is also possible to pulverize a Vitamin C tablet. Ascorbic acid is a well know substitute for bromates in flour. The big national chains like Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Domino's and Little Caesars all use ascorbic acid. In fact, I was specifically told by a technical person at Papa John's that they use ascorbic acid in lieu of bromates. However, having conducted several experiments using ascorbic acid, I do not consider it to be equivalent to potassium bromate. Maybe I didn't use enough of it (recommendations are typically in parts per million), so I can't say what would happen if I used a lot more. However, the chemical mechanism of ascorbic acid is not the same as potassium bromate.

Peter

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2009, 10:11:09 AM »
Following up on my last post, to the best of my knowledge, General Mills has only three commercial flours that use ascorbic acid as a dough conditioner: http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Eharvestking. The amount of ascorbic acid varies with the three flours, but the overall range is about 20-55 parts per million. At one time, General Mills indicated that its Harvest King flour contained ascorbic acid, but apparently that practice was discontinued at some point. The Better for Bread flour that replaced the Harvest King flour at the retail level does not contain ascorbic acid.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2009, 10:17:08 AM »


Ascorbic acid is just Vitamin C. I bought a powdered form of Vitamin C from a vitamin store, but it is also possible to pulverize a Vitamin C tablet. Ascorbic acid is a well know substitute for bromates in flour. The big national chains like Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Domino's and Little Caesars all use ascorbic acid. In fact, I was specifically told by a technical person at Papa John's that they use ascorbic acid in lieu of bromates. However, having conducted several experiments using ascorbic acid, I do not consider it to be equivalent to potassium bromate. Maybe I didn't use enough of it (recommendations are typically in parts per million), so I can't say what would happen if I used a lot more. However, the chemical mechanism of ascorbic acid is not the same as potassium bromate.

Peter
[/quote]

Peter,
Thank you for your information.  I really don't want to use bromates if it can put my customers at risk.  I will try the King Arthur Sir Lancelot and see how it performs.  If things don't go well, I will try adding the acorbic acid. 

Trogdor33,
Thank you for the link http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/acids-c-1.html .  When I looked at the link it reminded me of the candy I used to make in my candying making days.  We used to make the old-fashioned clear toy candy with out any flavorings, but if our customers wanted flavorings we used citric acid for fruit flavors like orange, lemon, lime, and malic acid for butterscotch, root beer and other.  The clear toy candy was a Pa. tradition starting back in around 1900.  Most of the original moulds were produced by Mills Brothers in Phila.  The original moulds are hard to come by now, but you can buy plastic moulds or duplicates.  The candy was easy to make and it was a Christmas tradition.  Years ago, children used to set their plates for Christmas morning.  All they used to get was clear toy candy, some fruit and maybe nuts.  My mother still remembers only getting this.  Can you imagine children now only getting this for Christmas?  :o  I still have many moulds and think I will make some for Christmas.  It is really easy and all you need are the moulds, corn syrup, sugar and water.  At least it's a candy with no additives. :)
You don't really need any moulds, you can just put olive oil on a jelly roll pan and pour the candy in the pan and break it up and then eat it. 
I know this is off-topic, but the citric acid just reminded me of the candy.
Here are a few pictures of what the clear toys looked like.  You can make small pieces, big pieces, and lollipops.
Norma
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 10:34:35 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bromated Flour
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2009, 10:37:45 AM »
I messed up putting the quote from Peter in my post.  Will try to do better next time.
Norma
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