Effects of High Gluten Flour vs. Bread Flour

[Tbombs34]

What will be the effect of using 100% high gluten flour (KASL or All Trumps) vs. using 100% bread flour, assuming all other things (ingredients, mixing process) are the same? 

[scott r]

A crust that can be left to ferment longer, will rise higher (more oven spring), can be mixed less to reach its peak gluten development, but will be a bit chewier/tougher and less soft/light.    The differences are quite subtle, though, and mixing/management/proofing techniques along with your recipe will have much more of an impact on everything mentioned above.   

[Pete-zza]

Tbombs34,

To what scott r has said, I would add that you should get a bit more crust coloration and flavor, because of the higher protein content of the high-gluten flour.

Peter

[JimmyMak]

Does anyone know the spec on King Arthur special blend

[Pete-zza]

Does anyone know the spec on King Arthur special blend

Unlike General Mills, King Arthur does not disclose much in the way of specifications for its flours at its website. The best you are likely to find is a document such as the one at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/Nutritional-Analysis.pdf. The Special flour listed in that document is the same as the bread flour sold by King Arthur at the retail level (see confirmation in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204.html#msg39204).

Peter

[JimmyMak]

Thank-you for the quick response

[pcampbell]

Any thoughts on whether high gluten will  perform better than bread flour in a deck oven at or above 600F?

Still trying to get the best out of this old baker's pride clone deck oven.  The balance between bottom and top heat seems to get worse as temperature gets higher (bottom burns before top is done) and I am wondering if high gluten flour will behave differently in this situation?  It may just be that this oven is made for ~525-575F at hottest and that is that, but I'd like to see what other options are.  I have not tried high gluten (bromated or non bromated) flour on it... I have easy access to bromated high gluten, but haven't gotten my hands on any KA sir lancelot unbromated high gluten flour yet.

Thanks 

[norma427]

Any thoughts on whether high gluten will  perform better than bread flour in a deck oven at or above 600F?

Still trying to get the best out of this old baker's pride clone deck oven.  The balance between bottom and top heat seems to get worse as temperature gets higher (bottom burns before top is done) and I am wondering if high gluten flour will behave differently in this situation?  It may just be that this oven is made for ~525-575F at hottest and that is that, but I'd like to see what other options are.  I have not tried high gluten (bromated or non bromated) flour on it... I have easy access to bromated high gluten, but haven't gotten my hands on any KA sir lancelot unbromated high gluten flour yet.

Thanks 

pcampbell,

I haven't tried bread flour in my deck oven, but can tell you by my experiences and the different kinds of flours I have tried, I can get very different results by just increasing my oven temperature by 25 degrees.  I have tried different oven temperatures with my Baker's Pride GP-61, but none above 550 degrees F.  My oven takes about an hour to warm-up to the desired temperature on the hearth.  Sometimes I change the temperature some to try out different pizzas.  Even 25 degrees in my oven can make a difference if my bottom bakes before my top.  I did get almost burnt results and had to throw those pizzas away.  Maybe I haven't tried a high enough hydration.  This is something I will try someday. 
My oven is propane gas. 
I have tried Pillsbury Balancer, Kyrol, All Trumps, and now KASL.  The flour I liked the most was All Trumps bromated.  I would still be using that if it wasn't bromated.  I can't find the unbromated in my area. 
If you live near me I would purchase you some of the KASL.  I really am used to using this now and do really like it. 

Norma

[malvanova]

 Hey  Pete-zza if I wanted to increase the gluten with vital gluten is there a % or formula of any kind to follow,just purchased some red mill vital gluten, I like to increase my bread rise with 5 roses flour it states 12% on the bag it is bleached, is all bleached flour bromated.  thanks


   Phil

 

[Bob1]

Hey guys,
King Arthur has a very good spec page.  I also found that it was at 14% moisture which contradicts a few other posts.  I think you will find this helpfull.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html

Thanks,

Bob

[Pete-zza]

Hey  Pete-zza if I wanted to increase the gluten with vital gluten is there a % or formula of any kind to follow,just purchased some red mill vital gluten, I like to increase my bread rise with 5 roses flour it states 12% on the bag it is bleached, is all bleached flour bromated.  thanks


   Phil

 

Phil,

You can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/.

As you can see at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring#50145, it is possible to have a bleached flour that is unbromated. As an example, see the Trumps 50145.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I also found that it was at 14% moisture which contradicts a few other posts. 

Bob,

Can you tell me what contradiction you have in mind from other posts?

Peter

[malvanova]

  Thanks Peter you are a wealth of information


      Phil

[Bob1]

Pete,
I thought there was a post by someone stating that the 14% for KASL was at 0 moisture but I cannot seem to locate it.  Possibly my mistake.  I was in the middle of a lot of multitasking when I posted last night.  My post was directed to JimmyMak's old post  "Does anyone know the spec on King Arthur special blend".  I did not realize that it was from last June.  Well, in any case King Arthur has a professional flour link that has more info on the flours.

Thanks,

Bob

[Pete-zza]

Bob,

I think you may have been thinking of the type of discussion on moisture content of flour as covered at http://web.archive.org/web/20060822034202/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf and possibly elsewhere on the forum.

Peter

[pcampbell]

pcampbell,

I haven't tried bread flour in my deck oven, but can tell you by my experiences and the different kinds of flours I have tried, I can get very different results by just increasing my oven temperature by 25 degrees.  I have tried different oven temperatures with my Baker's Pride GP-61, but none above 550 degrees F.  My oven takes about an hour to warm-up to the desired temperature on the hearth.  Sometimes I change the temperature some to try out different pizzas.  Even 25 degrees in my oven can make a difference if my bottom bakes before my top.  I did get almost burnt results and had to throw those pizzas away.  Maybe I haven't tried a high enough hydration.  This is something I will try someday. 
My oven is propane gas. 
I have tried Pillsbury Balancer, Kyrol, All Trumps, and now KASL.  The flour I liked the most was All Trumps bromated.  I would still be using that if it wasn't bromated.  I can't find the unbromated in my area. 
If you live near me I would purchase you some of the KASL.  I really am used to using this now and do really like it. 

Norma

Thanks! I may take you up on that offer sometime!

It sounds like I need to put in some more testing time on this oven... testing lower temperatures but in smaller increments.  This takes a bit of patience because the oven does not heat up or cool down very quickly!

I am not sure how much this really has to do with hydration or the flour vs just plain old top/bottom heat balance but any little differences in the flour or hydration will help.  Basically would like to bake at the highest possible temperature but with an even bake.

I am not surprised the bromated flour performed the best but happy to see others are straying away from it! 

[norma427]

Thanks! I may take you up on that offer sometime!

It sounds like I need to put in some more testing time on this oven... testing lower temperatures but in smaller increments.  This takes a bit of patience because the oven does not heat up or cool down very quickly!

I am not sure how much this really has to do with hydration or the flour vs just plain old top/bottom heat balance but any little differences in the flour or hydration will help.  Basically would like to bake at the highest possible temperature but with an even bake.

I am not surprised the bromated flour performed the best but happy to see others are straying away from it! 

Patrick,

The price of KASL in 50 lb. bags, purchased two weeks ago was 19.50.  If you ever need any, just let me know and you could stop at market and pick it up.  The price can go up or down from week to week.

I would like to also try to bake with a higher temperatures, but would need to do some tests first to see if my current dough formula could take the higher temperatures.  I don’t know when I will find the time to do that, but will someday. 

Even my oven has different hot spots that I have to watch while baking the pizza. My left bottom oven is hotter on the left than on the right.  My top oven doesn’t get as hot as the bottom.   Before I started making pizza, I had someone go over the whole oven and I needed a new jet pilot light, new thermostat, and many adjustments before the oven would work properly.  It still is a pain to light the pilot light and let it heat, before turning the knob to get the whole oven started. 

I do really like the KASL now, but the price is higher.  I am still going to stay with the KASL because I think it makes a good pizza and doesn’t have the bromates.

Norma

[Bob1]

Pete,
I never was able to open that KA link.  I went back to some of the old Henrik posts http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2172.0.htmland either I don't quite understand or there may be some contradictions regarding European and American flours.  I will try to start a thread in the next few days when I have time to review things.  If possible please note that the European flours are rated in Wet and dry gluten. 

WHEAT FLOUR TYPE "00"
MANITOBA NERO

Flour produced using the most prestigious American wheat.
Ideal for croissants, panettoni (Italian Christmas cake), colombe (Italian Easter cake in the form of a dove), puff pastry, frozen croissants.
W: 330/370
P/L: 0,45/0,6
Proteins: 16,5
Dry gluten: 13,7
Product Code: 25 kg: 33050025   50 kg: 33050050


Also try to check out this page http://www.aaccnet.org/7/PDF/Wet%20Gluten_Dry%20Gluten_Method_Index_38-12-02.pdf It is interesting but I need a little help grasping it.  Here is their formula for both wet and dry measurements.  I just find it hard to believe that The KASL is 3 or 4 % higher than this Manitoba just because it is measured at 14% water.

Thanks,

Bob