Author Topic: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions  (Read 9174 times)

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Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2009, 04:38:27 PM »
Thanks again.

I've just made a small dough ball (for an 8" inch pie) using the same recipe as before (scaled down with a thickness factor slightly higher at 0.12) but trying an autolyse, but im unsure if i did it correctly? i added the water and flour and stirred it together then left it in the bowl for 20 minutes...then came back to it and added the salt/sugar/yeast and olive oil and thats where my concern arised. Adding the olive oil at this point made it alot harder to knead it into the dough as it was really oily/wet, it did all get absorbed after 5 minutes or so of kneading, so no big deal, but is this the usual order in which to do it?

As for increasing the hydration, i'll give that a shot next time. I'm tempted to invest in a small mixer with a dough hook, as i imagine upping the hydration will be alot stickier to start with! i do enjoy hand kneading them though, seeing it turn from a sticky mess into a nice smooth ball of dough!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2009, 05:33:31 PM »
5thElement,

You did the autolyse correctly. You also discovered one of the drawbacks--incorporating the oil into the autolysed dough--to using the autolyse method correctly. I could have told you to add the oil to the water at the outset but then you would not have used the purest form of autolyse. Remember, autolyse was conceived by Professor Calvel when the doughs (bread doughs) included only flour, water, yeast and salt, and no oil and no sugar.

There are basically two points of view as to when the oil should be added to the dough. The Tom Lehmann view says to add the oil after the other dough ingredients have been mixed so that the oil does not interfere with the hydration of the flour. The opposing view says to add the oil to the water because it ensures more uniform dispersion of the oil in the dough. I have used both methods and have not detected a material difference in my doughs. Maybe it is more of an issue in a commercial dough making environment. As you discovered, it is a pain to try to incorporate oil into an existing dough by hand. It is easier to do it with a stand mixer but even then it is still more difficult than adding the oil to the water at the outset. I sometimes have to stop my mixer and help incorporate the oil into the dough by hand before resuming the knead.

Once you make the pizza, you can decide on whether you like the results from using the autolyse. Whether you like the results or not, you can experiment in the future with adding the oil before or after the flour.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 04:13:07 PM »
Thanks Pete, glad to hear it wasn't just me doing something incorrectly.

I cooked this pie tonight and i'm pleased to say it was one of my best yet.

I've actually entered it into the "family supper" challenge which you can see here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8658.msg76512.html#msg76512

Looks like i may need to put up with the awkwardness of adding the olive oil afterwards lol i guess i've got a couple of options though, either add the oil bit by bit and work it in, or try reducing the olive oil in the recipe slightly, or simply try adding it with the water like you suggested.

I still need to practice pressing/shaping/stretching these by hand, im happy to be away from using the rolling pin now, but i seem to be making the middle too thin, so i'll need to work on that.

I'm also wondering how you got your dough out the food bag and have it look so good? when i remove mine it tends to stick and i need to reshape it slightly as some pulls away. I guess a spray or rub of oil in the bag would help?

Thanks again for all your help, it's been fantastic being able to come here for advice and it's improved my pizzas immensely.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 04:15:32 PM by 5thElement »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 05:39:19 PM »
5thElement,

I saw your "Family Supper" Monthly Challenge submission, and you did a great job. I don't know if you noticed, but we both used basically the same dough formulation for our Monthly Challenge submissions. In my case, I used less yeast and a two day cold fermentation but the dough formulation was otherwise the same as the one you used.

With respect to the way I used the storage bag, I oiled the dough ball before placing it into the storage bag. I gathered the top of the bag so that it would simulate a closed container--almost like a plastic bowl--and then wrapped a tie around the gathered part of the bag. To remove the dough, which had flattened somewhat after two days, all I had to do was to remove the tie, spread open the bag, and lift the dough out of it. Another way to do it is to place the palm of your hand into the opened bag and against the top of the dough ball, turn the bag upside down, and peel the bag away from the dough. That way, you don't molest the dough.

You have made very good progress in a fairly short time. You even have the jargon down, and correctly. And you know how to use the dough calculating tool. I think you are well on your way.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2009, 06:36:33 PM »
Thanks Peter.

I forgot about us using pretty much the same dough recipe, we also both used offal on the toppings, you with your chicken liver and me with my haggis (main ingredient in that particular haggis is beef lungs! it sounds truly revolting but trust me it tastes nice lol)

Regarding levels of yeast, is there a formula that connects dough weight/yeast amount to ferment times? i just wondered how you know that say 0.5% yeast will take around 24 hours in the fridge and so on. I guess it's more complex than that, depending on the amount of sugars and so on, but is there a general rule?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 07:51:34 PM »
5thElement,

I am sure that there are people out there who are saying that you meant "awful" instead of "offal" :-D.

As far as a yeast/fermentation time formula is concerned, I am sure there is an answer to your question, but I am not smart enough to tell you what it is. In my case, it is basically a sixth sense that comes from having conducted so many experiments and observing results under all kinds of circumstances and conditions. However, one simple formula that I have tested and seems to be a reasonable formula is the one given at the website of the UK yeast producer DCL at http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_tech/tech_dried.html, specifically,

The quantity needed is mainly determined by the recipe and process used and on local climatic conditions. As a guide, when processing a dough at 27C (80F) the quantity in grams of Active Dried Yeast required per 100kg of flour is indicated approximately by dividing a factor 1360 by the number of hours of bulk fermentation.

To be able to use the above guideline, you obviously need to be able to handle the math (which is actually quite simple but a challenge to many people who are not technically oriented), and you have to know how to adjust for different types of yeast, such as IDY, and also the temperature at which the dough ferments, if different than 27 degrees C, or 80 degrees F.

A more technical way that is certain to be more accurate than the above DCL guideline is to use the methodology as discussed by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. However, to use that methodology, in addition to being able to handle the math, you need to have a reference case, which might represent a dough doubling within a certain time period at a specific fermentation temperature using a specified amount of yeast (in this case, ADY). This is an instance where using another November innovation, the poppy seed trick described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html, is likely to come in handy to determine when a dough has doubled in volume. Once you have the reference case in hand, you can determine the fermentation time you want to use and the fermentation temperature you plan to use and, using November's methodology, calculate the amount of yeast needed for the particular case. As you can see from the example given at Reply 6, you can establish pretty much any time/fermentation protocol you want to use, which might even include mixed periods of room temperature and cold fermentations. When I last played around with the above example, I used the online scientific calculator at http://www.ecalc.com/calculator/scientific/ to do all the calculations since I don't have a non-virtual scientific calculator.

Peter


Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2009, 10:35:13 AM »
I wonder if you can tell me where im going wrong here..

The last two pizzas i've made have been somewhat disastrous (although when cooked they turned out okay/tasted good)

My problem has been with the dough,

Same recipe as before...

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.5%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.75%):
274.28 g  |  9.67 oz | 0.6 lbs
164.57 g  |  5.8 oz | 0.36 lbs
1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
4.58 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
14.78 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
3.26 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
462.84 g | 16.33 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = 0.123

13", TF=0.12, BRC=2.5%

Flour and water mixed, autolyse for 20m then i add the sugar/salt/yeast/oil, work it into the ball a little with the wooden spoon then turn it out and knead it until it comes together nicely.

The first one i'm referring to, i'm sure it over fermented as i noticed the fridge was running high (10c instead of the usual 4), it had risen quite a bit in about 8 hours and i let it have almost 24hr in there, the dough when taken out to warm up to room temperature just slowly spread itself out over the worktop and wouldn't hold shape in a ball, was very hard to shape and i ended up re-balling it and using a rolling pin.

I made another pizza last night using the same recipe (different flour though, allinsons strong white bread flour) fridge at the proper temp now and it had pretty much 24hr including about 2 hours warming up on the worktop. When i took it out the bag it was initially very loose/moist and stretching and all went to a mess, so i had to re-ball it and then it was once again really difficult to stretch, kept retracting and was really tough to work with and i had to resort to the rolling pin. It cooked fine though and tasted nice, maybe slightly chewy though.

Where am i going wrong? should i reduce the yeast % slightly? im worried it's over fermenting but im pretty clueless right now.

We only eat pizza one night a week and it's getting really frustrating looking forward to it and ending up with a dough i want to throw out the window lol

On a positive note, the pizza stone is doing a great job, far superior results compared to the pan i was using previously.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:37:15 AM by 5thElement »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
5thElement,

I think we should be able to sort this thing out, but can you tell me what your water temperature was and, if you measured the finished dough temperature, what it was?

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 03:56:52 AM »
Hi Peter,

Unfortunately i never took a temperature reading of the water or the final dough. The water was straight out the tap, so it was colder than room temperature, but nowhere near ice cold. I know thats probably not much help!

Thanks

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2009, 12:36:43 PM »
5thElement,

Initially, I thought that perhaps the problem was temperature-related, possibly because the water temperature was too high, the room temperature was too high, or your refrigerator temperature (10 degrees C, or 50 degrees F) was too high, or possibly even some combination of the foregoing factors. I also thought that using hand kneading and the autolyse rest period (20 minutes) allowed a lot of time (30 minutes or more) for the temperature of the dough to approach a possibly overly high room temperature. However, when I checked the weather in London to get a general idea as to temperatures, I saw a range of about 13.9-20.6 degrees C (57-69 degrees F). That suggested that your kitchen temperature was perhaps on the cool side (around 17 degrees C?). It is still possible that temperature is the 800 pound gorilla in your kitchen, but there is no way of knowing for sure without having temperature readings at the different points in the dough preparation process. You might consider purchasing an inexpensive digital thermometer to check these temperatures, if only to rule out temperature problems as an issue. You should also learn a lot about how temperature can affect a dough's performance. From what you described, it sounds like your dough overfermented.

In the meantime, you can try several different things, either collectively or individually. You can: 1) use less yeast (for the purpose of slowing down the the extent of fermentation), 2) use cold water directly from the refrigerator (to lower the finished dough temperature), or 3) as a simple test, forego the autolyse rest period to see if its omission results in a lower finished dough temperature.  Another possibility is to lower the hydration by a few percent, especially since you are using 5.39% oil, which also contributes to the wetness of the dough. With the reduced hydration, the dough should ferment a bit more slowly.

Please keep us posted on your efforts to resolve this problem.

Peter


Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2009, 05:04:50 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.

As for what i'm going to try next, i'm not sure, looks like i've got a few options!

Initially i thought of reducing the yeast only (% wise im not sure, 0.30/0.40%?) but im now thinking along the lines of reducing the hydration slightly and maybe even the oil.

The dough did seem slightly stickier/wetter this time round.

There seems to be a few possibilitys here so im not sure which is the best to try first, reducing just the yeast alone, or the yeast and the water....or the yeast and the oil? or leaving the yeast as is and reducing the water/oil? the possibilities are endless lol

How much can i reduce the oil without affecting the flavour massively?

I guess there's also missing out the autolyse period...

I'll need to have a think about it, i'll be making the next dough in a few days time so i'll report back.

Just when i thought i had it cracked...i feel like i'm back to square one!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2009, 06:06:28 PM »
5thElement,

My personal preference in cases like yours is to resolve the temperature issue first--by trying to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. That is harder to do with a hand kneaded dough, and especially if a prolonged autolyse is used, because by the time the dough is prepared it can have a finished dough temperature that approaches and maybe even reaches room temperature, which may be higher than the desired finished dough temperature. This can happen even if the water is on the cool or cold side. In this scenario, if I wanted to continue to hand knead the dough and use a prolonged autolyse, I suspect my next move would be to decrease the amount of yeast. For example, I might go to 0.35% IDY and I would add it toward the end of the dough making process. It usually isn't good practice to make multiple changes at one time because it is difficult to identify which change, if any, fixed the problem. I would start with the yeast reduction and go from there.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2009, 02:51:02 PM »
Thanks Peter, thats what i thought would be best and as you said, if i make multiple changes, it would be impossible to pinpoint what actually improved it (or made it worse as the case may be!)

I'll make it as usual but reduce the yeast and see how i get on with that and i'll report back on Friday.

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2009, 03:44:09 PM »
This is getting depressing now...

Just had the dough out the fridge for about an hour and it's allready flattened/spread out a fair bit, was able to stretch it out to 12" without even lifting it off the work top, but when i tried lifting it, it stretched out even more and some was stuck and i've had to reball it, and no doubt i'll need to get a rolling pin on it now.

Changes i made this time round, i reduced the yeast to 0.35% and used water out of the fridge. During the autolyse i added the oil and water, rather than adding the oil afterwards.

Result was more or less the same as the last two dough's, possibly slightly better, but not much.

I'll let the reballed dough sit there for 20 minutes before i try stretching it out/cooking it.

Here's the recipe this time round

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.35%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.6%):
237.34 g  |  8.37 oz | 0.52 lbs
142.4 g  |  5.02 oz | 0.31 lbs
0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
3.96 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
12.79 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.84 tsp | 0.95 tbsp
2.82 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
400.15 g | 14.11 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.1248

I've no idea whats going wrong...kneading technique? new flour incapable of absorbing as much water/oil? been working on this for ages now and want to use it where i work as well, but until i get it consistantly right it's going nowhere! really frustrating.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2009, 04:21:54 PM »
5thElement,

No need to despair. We will solve this one.

We both know that the basic recipe works because we both established that, me with my chicken liver pizza and you with your Scottish black pudding/haggis pizza. So, the question is what changed to produce your latest results.

Can you tell me when you made the dough and its age, in hours, as of the time you tried to use the dough? I see that it is still cool in London so I don't see anything to suggest that the finished dough temperature was too high, even if you used an autolyse. For dough temperature to become a problem, it would have to be above about 28 degrees C (82 degrees F). I assume also that your refrigerator temperature was in the normal operating range. If you are using the Allison's strong bread flour, it is hard to imagine that its absorption characteristics are not adequate to the task. Did you by any chance measure any temperatures?

Once I hear back from you, I hope to be able to make some suggestions, or at least ask some followup questions.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:39:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2009, 04:45:57 PM »
This pizza has made a bit of an idiot of me..the end result was great and one of my best yet...i've posted some pictures of it....

I let the re-balled dough sit for about 10-15 minutes and i was able to stretch it on the work top by hand without too much difficulty, a little bit of contracting but nothing out of the ordinary. The crust was pretty tasty and sprung back up to the touch and rose quite nicely in the oven, overall i was really pleased with the pizza.

I'm still not 100% happy though as from what i gather, it shouldn't need re-balling (which i've assumed isn't any good for it) and each time i've had to. The dough is initially very elastic/stretchy/slightly wet, but once reballed seems to feel better.

Changes since the haggis pizza are basically only the flour, tonights and the last pie have been made using Allinsons strong white bread flour. Tonights pie also added the oil into the autolyse, as i hate having to knead the oil in by hand afterwards! i doubt thats really made any difference though.

Unfortunately i don't have a thermometer at home (other than the one in the fridge) so i havn't taken any temperatures (i could borrow one from work no problem though) The fridge has been operating in the correct range also.

As for the age of the dough, it's had atleast 24 hours which includes around an hour and half on the worktop warming up.

Once again Peter, thanks for your patience and persistant help! dunno what i'd do without this place.

Thanks

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2009, 05:04:13 PM »
5thElement,

I agree that it should be possible to make the dough bases without having to re-knead the dough balls and then roll them out after a period of rest. Your recent results seem to suggest a case of overfermentation or possibly overhydration that behaviourally mirrors overfermentation. I am inclined to believe the latter more than the former only because I don't see any signs of anything that you have been doing or have reported that should result in an overfermented dough. Extensible, yes, but overfermentation, no. Consequently, what you perhaps should try next time is to lower the hydration of your dough formulation. I would use 56% and see if that reduces the extensibility of the skins and solves the shaping and stretching problem. I have read and heard a lot about the Allinsons flours but I have never tried them, so it is possible that further adjustment in formula hydration may be needed before we are done. When I have made Papa John's clone doughs, which include a lot of oil (over 7%), I found that using a combination of oil and water whose combined percents roughly equalled the absorption value of the flour I was using (bread flour) worked out very well. Maybe the same approach will work in this case.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2009, 06:43:27 PM »
Looks like i'll give that a try next time, i've noticed when kneading the dough, it certaintly seems more stickier/wetter and i've had to resort to using a little flour on the work top, whereas before i was able to knead it to the point it just came together nicely without using any flour on the worktop.

That also led me to increasing the BRC to 4% this time as i realised more was sticking to my hands the last time resulting in a little loss.

With the lowered hydration, would you recommend increasing the yeast back to 0.5% or leaving it at the lower level of 0.35%?

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2009, 06:49:58 PM »
With the lowered hydration, would you recommend increasing the yeast back to 0.5% or leaving it at the lower level of 0.35%?

5thElement,

If hydration is the problem, I don't think it will matter whether you use 0.35% or 0.50% IDY for a 24-hour cold fermented dough, especially since temperature does not seem to be an issue as best I can tell from what you have said and done. If you can get some temperature measurements along the way, I would feel more comfortable, because of the added data points.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2009, 06:15:18 PM »
Hi again,

Time for my weekly update lol

I'm happy to confirm using 56% hydration produced a dough that was alot more manageable (both before and after fermenting)

Before fermenting it produced a nice smooth dough ball which wasn't sticking to everything, but was still slightly tacky and just seemed right.

After fermenting, it didn't all stretch/go wet/sloppy and i was able to shape it on the worktop with relative ease (without any re-balling)

So, i suppose i just need to stick with this hydration next time and see if i can repeat these results.

I guess i've kinda reached the practical limits of this dough formula without drastically altering it.

I'm just baffled as to why the previous 60% hydration seemed to be causing an issue with this new flour?


 

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