Author Topic: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions  (Read 11576 times)

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Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2009, 01:43:56 PM »
The dough was divided after it was in the fridge for 48 hours (against the advice given here i know, but i read it too late)

Maybe a longer fermentation would have improved it if those fridge temp's are considered very low.

I'd love to hear how you get on with the dough if you give it a try...

Thanks


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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 07:02:10 PM »
5thElement,

Because of my puzzlement, I have been attempting a virtual autopsy on your last dough and pizza. One of the things I noticed for the first time, in Reply 21, is that you kneaded the dough by hand. I thought you were using a stand mixer. That is why I had suggested the use of cold water--to offset the heat that a stand mixer adds to the dough through the friction of kneading. With a dough ball weight of 330 grams, I can see how it could have ended up on the cool side. I might add that sometimes the finished dough temperature can be high even with hand kneading. For example, right now where I live in Texas, the outdoor temperature has been around 100 degrees F (almost 38 degrees C). Even if I use cold water right out of the refrigerator, the temperature of the dough after several minutes of hand kneading can reach room temperature (in my case, around 82 degrees F, or almost 28 degrees C). When I checked the London temperature (outdoor) today, the range was around 57-69 degrees F (14-20.6 degrees C). If that temperature is close to the temperature where you live, that would suggest a fairly cool dough, perhaps close to room temperature.

Your use of a pan and an oven temperature of 425 degrees F perhaps don't help the situation. The situation might be helped if you had a much higher oven temperature but from what you say it may not be high enough. With a pan, the pan has to first get to the oven temperature before the pizza can start to bake in a meaningful way. If the bake time is too long at a low temperature, the finished product can be mediocre. Your considerably larger amount of yeast in the original recipe you used may have been a major factor in the greater rise in the dough and finished crust. Ultmately, you will perhaps want to invest in tiles or a pizza stone.

Peter

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2009, 04:09:52 PM »
5thElement,

I decided to try the dough recipe I revised for you earlier in this thread. However, in my case, I adjusted the ingredient quantities to make a 14" pizza while keeping the crust thickness the same as what you last used. I also used hand kneading, as will be discussed more fully below. To bake the pizza, I decided to use a pizza screen, for two reasons. First, it was around 90 degrees F (about 32 degrees C) yesterday when I decided to bake the pizza and I did not want to heat my pizza stone for an hour and also unnecessarily heat up my kitchen, and, second, I felt that the use of the screen was closer to your use of a perforated pan.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation for my purposes:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.30121%):
Salt (1.67442%):
Olive Oil-Light (5.39999%):
Sugar (1.19501%):
Total (168.57063%):
271.79 g  |  9.59 oz | 0.6 lbs
163.07 g  |  5.75 oz | 0.36 lbs
0.82 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
4.55 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
14.68 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.26 tsp | 1.09 tbsp
3.25 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
458.15 g | 16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = 0.1049804
Note: Dough for a 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.102922; bowl residue compensation = 2%

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the IDY and flour. The flour was a very well known U.S. brand of bread flour (King Arthur), with a protein content of 12.7%. I then added the water to a large mixing bowl, along with the salt and sugar, which I stirred to dissolve. The water had been taken directly out of the refrigerator and was at a temperature of around 50.6 degrees F (about 10.3 degrees C). It was actually a bit cooler when I first took it out of the refrigerator but it warmed up quite quickly when brought out to room temperature. I then added the oil to the mixing bowl. Next, I gradually added the flour/IDY mixture to the mixing bowl and used a wire whisk to stir the overall mixture and hydrate the flour. Any hand whisk can be used for this purpose but the one I used is shown at the top of the photo in Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Once the hand whisk bogged down, I switched to a sturdy wooden spoon as I continued to add and mix in the flour/IDY mixture. When the spoon started to bog down, I emptied the contents of the mixing bowl onto a work surface where I continued to work in the remaining flour/IDY mixture by hand. To facilitate this step, I used a bench knife to work the flour into the dough mass. The bench knife I use is like the one shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-bench-knife but any bench knife can be used, even the plastic ones (as shown, for example, at http://www.bakedeco.com/dept.asp?id=194). Once all of the dry ingredients were taken up into the dough ball, I hand kneaded the dough for about 5-6 minutes. The finished dough, which I shaped into a round ball, was smooth and silky and slightly tacky. It was almost perfect.

I then oiled the dough ball and placed it into a plastic storage bag. I elected to use a plastic storage bag without a zip-type closure so that it would be a bit easier to remove the dough ball when time came to use the dough. I simply gathered the top of the storage bag and used a metal tie to close the bag. The bag with the dough in it was placed on a flat dish. The first photo below shows this arrangement. The dough went into the refrigerator for 48 hours.

After the 48 hours of cold fermentation, the dough ball was removed from the storage bag and allowed to warm up at room temperature (around 82 degrees F, or about 28 degrees C). The dough ball at this stage is as shown in the second photo below. Because of my warm kitchen, it took only about one hour for the dough ball to warm up sufficiently to use it to make a pizza skin. The dough was quite extensible but I had no difficulty in opening the dough ball out to 14" to fit my 14" pizza screen. The pizza was then dressed and baked. For this pizza, I decided to use chicken livers, caramelized onions, mushrooms and garlic. For the lip-smacking details on this pizza, see the exemplary photo below as well as Replies 3 and 5 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8658.msg75948.html#msg75948

The pizza was baked in my electric oven that I had preheated for about 15 minutes to about 525 degrees F (around 274 degrees C). The pizza on the screen was initially placed on the lowest oven rack position and baked for about 8 minutes. This was a couple of minutes longer than usual for me but the unbaked pizza had a lot of toppings and weighed about 37 ounces. Once the rim of the crust started to turn light brown, I moved the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the uppermost oven rack position where the pizza got additional top baking for about a minute or so. This was in line with the instructions I gave to you with respect to baking your pizza on your perforated pan.

The crust of the finished pizza was quite good and flavorful. It was soft and chewy with a tender crumb. I might have preferred a more crispy bottom crust but I would have had to either bake the pizza longer at a somewhat lower temperature, at the risk of overbaking the cheese and toppings (I didn't want the chicken livers to turn into rocks), or I would have had to use a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F (around 274 degrees C). Another option--one that I have used many times before--would have been to use a combination of pizza screen and preheated pizza stone (the pizza is baked on the screen at an upper rack position and later transferred to the preheated pizza stone at a lower oven rack position for bottom crust browning). I might have used this option had it not been so hot in my kitchen.

What I did proves out the dough formulation but that must be considered in relation to my particular situation with my particular oven arrangement. Hopefully, what I did will be instructive in allowing you to modify your particular operating environment to improve your results or suggest alternatives to the same end.

Peter


Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2009, 12:26:55 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for trying it out! it's really appreciated. The pizza looks great, definately alot more colour in the crust than my previous efforts! i dont suppose you have a side on shot so i can see how that compares?

I guess i'll try it again and adopt some of your methods, i guess im just worried it'll turn out exactly the same again, so im not sure if i need to leave it in the fridge longer, or if i just needed to let the dough ball warm up for longer once it was removed? i wonder what temperature your fridge is? i've been monitoring mine and it seems to be steady at 4 degrees celsius.

I've since purchased a pizza stone so i'll be trying that next time and hopefully i'll have more success.

In the same shop i bought the pizza stone i also picked up 2kg of "Agnesi, Farina, di grano tenero tipo 00" flour and i'll be picking up a small bag of polenta/cornmeal to avoid using so much flour on the bottom in future.

I guess i should master the original recipe to begin with before messing with the new flour, but when it comes to trying it, is it just a case of using the tipo 00 flour the same as the other?

Before coming to this site, i never imagined how involved pizza making can be lol great fun though!

I've attached a picture of the pizza stone i bought (picture taken from amazon)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2009, 02:46:08 PM »
5thElement,

There is a side shot of a slice of the pizza I made at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8658.msg75948.html#msg75948. Although Tom Lehmann says that oil in the dough results in increased volume and crust height, my experience with doughs with oil in excess of about 5% is that the finished crusts are not especially high at the rims. The photo at Reply 3 referenced above seems to confirm this.

My refrigerator is currently running at about 39 degrees F (about 3.9 degrees C) toward the back where I normally store my dough balls. It is cooler where you are in the UK than where I am in Texas, but I think you should find the dough quite extensible after a relatively short warm-up time on the bench.

Now that you have a pizza stone, you may have to revisit the dough formulation to see if it suitable for use with the new stone. That is because the dough formulation includes sugar. Fortunately, there is not much of it (about 1.2%) so you may be able to bake the pizza on your stone without overly browning or burning the bottom crust (usually you have to get above about 2% for the sugar to be a problem in a typical home oven). You may need to try the dough with your new stone to see if the sugar is a problem. If you decide to delete the sugar, your finished crust may end up being a slightly thinner version of the "neglected" American style pizza described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7945.0.html.

The 00 flour behaves differently than the flours with higher protein levels that you have available to you in the UK, so I don't think you should use it for the dough formulation we have been discussing. For one thing, you are unlikely to get much crust color in your home oven.

Now that you have a pizza stone, there will be other possibilities that will open up to you, so you may want to investigate other dough formulations that benefit from having a pizza stone.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2009, 02:20:42 PM »
Thanks for the link to the side on shot.

I wonder if there's a basic dough recipe i can try for use with the stone? the amount of recipes on here is overwhelming and it's difficult to choose one particular recipe!

I'm looking at the Tom Lehmans NY style on the homepage recipe link but im unsure about the quantities, we dont really use "cups" in the UK and the 3 1/2 cups on the recipe says 16 ounces, but when i convert it using various other webpage convertors, it never gives me 16 ounces? im not sure whether the recipe is for one pizza or two either?

I guess i should stick to my original for now and try to perfect that?

Is there anyway i could try my recipe for a 24 hr ferment? just wondering if i could start one tonight and use it tomorrow, rather than going back to my original yeast heavy recipe that rose in around 1 hour.

Thanks for putting up with all my questions!

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2009, 03:36:15 PM »
5thElement,

You can go with either a Lehmann NY style pizza dough or modify your existing dough for one-day use. If you want to stick with your present recipe, I think I would increase the yeast a bit, to around 0.50%, which I think should work where you are in the UK with cool weather.

If you want to try a basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe with your new pizza stone, you might consider the one described at the following thread, starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. If you plan to use hand kneading, there are recommended techniques--the same ones I usually use--set forth at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. You may want to use cool water since the dough temperature will usually rise toward the room temperature as you hand knead the dough to the desired condition. If you have the Hovis strong white flour, that should be a pretty good choice. If your Hovis flour is not the strong white flour but one with a lower protein level, you can reduce the hydration to around 60%. In such a case, you can recalculate the ingredients quantities using the forum's expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The same tool can be used for any number of dough balls for any size pizzas. If you need any help with the tool, let me know.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 05:20:57 PM »
I used a thickness factor of 0.11? and kept the original figures you allready gave me and i've ended up with this

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.75%):
245.29 g  |  8.65 oz | 0.54 lbs
147.17 g  |  5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
1.23 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
13.22 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.94 tsp | 0.98 tbsp
2.92 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
413.93 g | 14.6 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = 0.11

For one 13" pizza

Does that look okay for a 24hr ferment in the fridge? when it comes to using the calculator, im just not sure how much oil/sugar etc to use, hence using the same figures as before.

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 05:34:25 PM »
5thElement,

Based on your thickness factor of 0.11 and the baker's percents you used, the calculations are correct. I usually add a bowl residue compensation of around 2.5% when using hand kneading to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough--such as small amounts of the dough sticking to the mixer bowl, implements, your hands, the work surface, etc. On that basis, the table becomes:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.75%):
251.42 g  |  8.87 oz | 0.55 lbs
150.85 g  |  5.32 oz | 0.33 lbs
1.26 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
13.55 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.01 tsp | 1 tbsp
2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
424.27 g | 14.97 oz | 0.94 lbs | TF = 0.11275
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.11; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You can always scale the dough ball weight back to 14.6 ounces (your number) if you have a bit too much dough as a result of using the bowl residue compensation. Your dough skin should be a bit thicker than what I used to make my pizza but that should be fine.

Peter



Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 06:13:21 PM »
Hi Peter,

I forgot about the bowl residue compensation, thanks for that.

I've went with your figures, weighed it all on my new digital scales which should be more accurate than my others! i also adopted your method of adding the flour to the water and using a whisk to begin with. The dough ball is now in the fridge and i'll report back tomorrow night with the results.

With the stone, is it best on the lower shelf of the oven? (gas oven) and just crank the oven up to the highest temp and let it heat up for an hour?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 06:35:45 PM »
With the stone, is it best on the lower shelf of the oven? (gas oven) and just crank the oven up to the highest temp and let it heat up for an hour?

5thElement,

I have an electric oven and that is what I do. However, some members find the middle oven rack position to be a better position for their particular ovens.

Your next pizza should be a good test of your oven using your stone instead of a pan.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2009, 04:48:47 PM »
Well it's been cooked and eaten now...and it seemed to be a pretty good success!

To start with, the dough seemed easy to work with, for once i was easily able to stretch it by hand, i first pressed it out to around 7-8 inches on the work top then stretched it between my fists, it still contracted a little when placed on the makeshift peel (piece of cardboard lol) but wasn't too bad at all.

The base was alot crispier, the outer rim had alot more colour and the crust tasted pretty good, if anything it was too crispy on the rim/base but im not complaining, it's a step forward i reckon!

The stone was put on the lowest shelf in the oven and heated for atleast 1 hour, in that time the oven got up to around 485/490 degrees according to the oven thermometer i stuck in there.

It seemed to cook a bit quicker on the top and i had to leave it in slightly longer than i'd have liked to to achieve the browning seen in the photos below, but myabe i could have just taken it out slightly earlier and possibly would have avoided the "too crispy" rim i mentioned above.

Anyways, here's some photos
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 04:52:38 PM by 5thElement »

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2009, 05:40:30 PM »
5thElement,

Congratulations. I would say that you did very well. The latest pizza is a big improvement over your earlier pizzas using the pan.

You didn't indicate the size of your stone but if you can make a larger pizza than 12", that might be a logical next step. Also, since you know how to use the dough calculating tool, you can modify the dough formulation to your heart's content. Or you can simply try a different dough recipe.

Peter


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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2009, 03:51:38 AM »
Thanks Peter. The stone is around 13.5 inches if i remember correctly, so 13 inch is probably my limit.

As for altering the dough formulation, im unsure what to alter and how it would affect the dough, for example if i removed the sugar, what would that achieve? if i upped the oil or reduced the water, what would that do? and so on..

I guess im now looking to try and get the crust crisp but still slightly soft and airy/bread like inside, instead of being too crunchy/dry, i think that was the main issue with last nights pie. I read a thread on here suggesting milk might help, but im not sure? maybe just taking it out the oven slightly earlier would have solved it lol

I picked up a bag of polenta/ground maize this morning to use as a releasing agent on the peel as i find i end up with too much flour on the base. My other "issue" with the peel is when shaking it off onto the stone, it slightly changes the shape of the pizza and it contracts a little? not a big problem though really.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 08:44:10 AM by 5thElement »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2009, 09:38:29 AM »
5thElement,

You are correct that there is a practical limit as to what you can do to your existing dough formulation without materially changing its character. But that doesn't mean that you are completely stuck with the dough formulation. For example, if you want a more bread-like crumb, you can autolyse your flour and water for about 15-20 minutes and then add the rest of the ingredients. Along with the autolyse, you can increase the hydration to around 62% to get a somewhat more open and airy crust and crumb. If you want a thinner, NY-style crust, you can reduce the amount of oil and use a thickness factor of about 0.09. If you want a thicker crust, say, like a Papa John's crust, you can increase the thickness factor to around 0.14 or even a bit more. If you omit the sugar altogether, I don't think that you will see a major change in the results given that the sugar is only at a bit over 1%. If you would like to get more crust flavor, you can reduce the amount of yeast and use a day or two more of cold fermentation. An ancillary benefit of making the above kinds of changes is that you will learn something new and it will be in the context of the same dough, not an isolated event with a different dough.

Oven issues are always difficult because there are so many differerent oven designs and configurations. Also, I sense from my reading that the ovens you have in the UK are different than the ones we have in the U.S. It takes experience to "marry" a dough formulation to an oven to get the optimal results.

Since you are new to using a peel and a stone, it will just take practice to improve your "peeling" skills. It is also quite common for a dressed pizza to shrink in size on a peel when you shake the peel while loading the pizza into the oven. One way to compensate for this is is to just make the pizza skin a little bit bigger on the peel before dressing it. Of course, this assumes that your peel is big enough to do this.

Peter

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2009, 04:38:27 PM »
Thanks again.

I've just made a small dough ball (for an 8" inch pie) using the same recipe as before (scaled down with a thickness factor slightly higher at 0.12) but trying an autolyse, but im unsure if i did it correctly? i added the water and flour and stirred it together then left it in the bowl for 20 minutes...then came back to it and added the salt/sugar/yeast and olive oil and thats where my concern arised. Adding the olive oil at this point made it alot harder to knead it into the dough as it was really oily/wet, it did all get absorbed after 5 minutes or so of kneading, so no big deal, but is this the usual order in which to do it?

As for increasing the hydration, i'll give that a shot next time. I'm tempted to invest in a small mixer with a dough hook, as i imagine upping the hydration will be alot stickier to start with! i do enjoy hand kneading them though, seeing it turn from a sticky mess into a nice smooth ball of dough!

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2009, 05:33:31 PM »
5thElement,

You did the autolyse correctly. You also discovered one of the drawbacks--incorporating the oil into the autolysed dough--to using the autolyse method correctly. I could have told you to add the oil to the water at the outset but then you would not have used the purest form of autolyse. Remember, autolyse was conceived by Professor Calvel when the doughs (bread doughs) included only flour, water, yeast and salt, and no oil and no sugar.

There are basically two points of view as to when the oil should be added to the dough. The Tom Lehmann view says to add the oil after the other dough ingredients have been mixed so that the oil does not interfere with the hydration of the flour. The opposing view says to add the oil to the water because it ensures more uniform dispersion of the oil in the dough. I have used both methods and have not detected a material difference in my doughs. Maybe it is more of an issue in a commercial dough making environment. As you discovered, it is a pain to try to incorporate oil into an existing dough by hand. It is easier to do it with a stand mixer but even then it is still more difficult than adding the oil to the water at the outset. I sometimes have to stop my mixer and help incorporate the oil into the dough by hand before resuming the knead.

Once you make the pizza, you can decide on whether you like the results from using the autolyse. Whether you like the results or not, you can experiment in the future with adding the oil before or after the flour.

Peter


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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 04:13:07 PM »
Thanks Pete, glad to hear it wasn't just me doing something incorrectly.

I cooked this pie tonight and i'm pleased to say it was one of my best yet.

I've actually entered it into the "family supper" challenge which you can see here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8658.msg76512.html#msg76512

Looks like i may need to put up with the awkwardness of adding the olive oil afterwards lol i guess i've got a couple of options though, either add the oil bit by bit and work it in, or try reducing the olive oil in the recipe slightly, or simply try adding it with the water like you suggested.

I still need to practice pressing/shaping/stretching these by hand, im happy to be away from using the rolling pin now, but i seem to be making the middle too thin, so i'll need to work on that.

I'm also wondering how you got your dough out the food bag and have it look so good? when i remove mine it tends to stick and i need to reshape it slightly as some pulls away. I guess a spray or rub of oil in the bag would help?

Thanks again for all your help, it's been fantastic being able to come here for advice and it's improved my pizzas immensely.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 04:15:32 PM by 5thElement »

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 05:39:19 PM »
5thElement,

I saw your "Family Supper" Monthly Challenge submission, and you did a great job. I don't know if you noticed, but we both used basically the same dough formulation for our Monthly Challenge submissions. In my case, I used less yeast and a two day cold fermentation but the dough formulation was otherwise the same as the one you used.

With respect to the way I used the storage bag, I oiled the dough ball before placing it into the storage bag. I gathered the top of the bag so that it would simulate a closed container--almost like a plastic bowl--and then wrapped a tie around the gathered part of the bag. To remove the dough, which had flattened somewhat after two days, all I had to do was to remove the tie, spread open the bag, and lift the dough out of it. Another way to do it is to place the palm of your hand into the opened bag and against the top of the dough ball, turn the bag upside down, and peel the bag away from the dough. That way, you don't molest the dough.

You have made very good progress in a fairly short time. You even have the jargon down, and correctly. And you know how to use the dough calculating tool. I think you are well on your way.

Peter

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2009, 06:36:33 PM »
Thanks Peter.

I forgot about us using pretty much the same dough recipe, we also both used offal on the toppings, you with your chicken liver and me with my haggis (main ingredient in that particular haggis is beef lungs! it sounds truly revolting but trust me it tastes nice lol)

Regarding levels of yeast, is there a formula that connects dough weight/yeast amount to ferment times? i just wondered how you know that say 0.5% yeast will take around 24 hours in the fridge and so on. I guess it's more complex than that, depending on the amount of sugars and so on, but is there a general rule?

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 07:51:34 PM »
5thElement,

I am sure that there are people out there who are saying that you meant "awful" instead of "offal" :-D.

As far as a yeast/fermentation time formula is concerned, I am sure there is an answer to your question, but I am not smart enough to tell you what it is. In my case, it is basically a sixth sense that comes from having conducted so many experiments and observing results under all kinds of circumstances and conditions. However, one simple formula that I have tested and seems to be a reasonable formula is the one given at the website of the UK yeast producer DCL at http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_tech/tech_dried.html, specifically,

The quantity needed is mainly determined by the recipe and process used and on local climatic conditions. As a guide, when processing a dough at 27C (80F) the quantity in grams of Active Dried Yeast required per 100kg of flour is indicated approximately by dividing a factor 1360 by the number of hours of bulk fermentation.

To be able to use the above guideline, you obviously need to be able to handle the math (which is actually quite simple but a challenge to many people who are not technically oriented), and you have to know how to adjust for different types of yeast, such as IDY, and also the temperature at which the dough ferments, if different than 27 degrees C, or 80 degrees F.

A more technical way that is certain to be more accurate than the above DCL guideline is to use the methodology as discussed by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. However, to use that methodology, in addition to being able to handle the math, you need to have a reference case, which might represent a dough doubling within a certain time period at a specific fermentation temperature using a specified amount of yeast (in this case, ADY). This is an instance where using another November innovation, the poppy seed trick described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html, is likely to come in handy to determine when a dough has doubled in volume. Once you have the reference case in hand, you can determine the fermentation time you want to use and the fermentation temperature you plan to use and, using November's methodology, calculate the amount of yeast needed for the particular case. As you can see from the example given at Reply 6, you can establish pretty much any time/fermentation protocol you want to use, which might even include mixed periods of room temperature and cold fermentations. When I last played around with the above example, I used the online scientific calculator at http://www.ecalc.com/calculator/scientific/ to do all the calculations since I don't have a non-virtual scientific calculator.

Peter


Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2009, 10:35:13 AM »
I wonder if you can tell me where im going wrong here..

The last two pizzas i've made have been somewhat disastrous (although when cooked they turned out okay/tasted good)

My problem has been with the dough,

Same recipe as before...

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.5%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.75%):
274.28 g  |  9.67 oz | 0.6 lbs
164.57 g  |  5.8 oz | 0.36 lbs
1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
4.58 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
14.78 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
3.26 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
462.84 g | 16.33 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = 0.123

13", TF=0.12, BRC=2.5%

Flour and water mixed, autolyse for 20m then i add the sugar/salt/yeast/oil, work it into the ball a little with the wooden spoon then turn it out and knead it until it comes together nicely.

The first one i'm referring to, i'm sure it over fermented as i noticed the fridge was running high (10c instead of the usual 4), it had risen quite a bit in about 8 hours and i let it have almost 24hr in there, the dough when taken out to warm up to room temperature just slowly spread itself out over the worktop and wouldn't hold shape in a ball, was very hard to shape and i ended up re-balling it and using a rolling pin.

I made another pizza last night using the same recipe (different flour though, allinsons strong white bread flour) fridge at the proper temp now and it had pretty much 24hr including about 2 hours warming up on the worktop. When i took it out the bag it was initially very loose/moist and stretching and all went to a mess, so i had to re-ball it and then it was once again really difficult to stretch, kept retracting and was really tough to work with and i had to resort to the rolling pin. It cooked fine though and tasted nice, maybe slightly chewy though.

Where am i going wrong? should i reduce the yeast % slightly? im worried it's over fermenting but im pretty clueless right now.

We only eat pizza one night a week and it's getting really frustrating looking forward to it and ending up with a dough i want to throw out the window lol

On a positive note, the pizza stone is doing a great job, far superior results compared to the pan i was using previously.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:37:15 AM by 5thElement »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
5thElement,

I think we should be able to sort this thing out, but can you tell me what your water temperature was and, if you measured the finished dough temperature, what it was?

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 03:56:52 AM »
Hi Peter,

Unfortunately i never took a temperature reading of the water or the final dough. The water was straight out the tap, so it was colder than room temperature, but nowhere near ice cold. I know thats probably not much help!

Thanks

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2009, 12:36:43 PM »
5thElement,

Initially, I thought that perhaps the problem was temperature-related, possibly because the water temperature was too high, the room temperature was too high, or your refrigerator temperature (10 degrees C, or 50 degrees F) was too high, or possibly even some combination of the foregoing factors. I also thought that using hand kneading and the autolyse rest period (20 minutes) allowed a lot of time (30 minutes or more) for the temperature of the dough to approach a possibly overly high room temperature. However, when I checked the weather in London to get a general idea as to temperatures, I saw a range of about 13.9-20.6 degrees C (57-69 degrees F). That suggested that your kitchen temperature was perhaps on the cool side (around 17 degrees C?). It is still possible that temperature is the 800 pound gorilla in your kitchen, but there is no way of knowing for sure without having temperature readings at the different points in the dough preparation process. You might consider purchasing an inexpensive digital thermometer to check these temperatures, if only to rule out temperature problems as an issue. You should also learn a lot about how temperature can affect a dough's performance. From what you described, it sounds like your dough overfermented.

In the meantime, you can try several different things, either collectively or individually. You can: 1) use less yeast (for the purpose of slowing down the the extent of fermentation), 2) use cold water directly from the refrigerator (to lower the finished dough temperature), or 3) as a simple test, forego the autolyse rest period to see if its omission results in a lower finished dough temperature.  Another possibility is to lower the hydration by a few percent, especially since you are using 5.39% oil, which also contributes to the wetness of the dough. With the reduced hydration, the dough should ferment a bit more slowly.

Please keep us posted on your efforts to resolve this problem.

Peter