Author Topic: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions  (Read 10962 times)

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Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2009, 05:04:50 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.

As for what i'm going to try next, i'm not sure, looks like i've got a few options!

Initially i thought of reducing the yeast only (% wise im not sure, 0.30/0.40%?) but im now thinking along the lines of reducing the hydration slightly and maybe even the oil.

The dough did seem slightly stickier/wetter this time round.

There seems to be a few possibilitys here so im not sure which is the best to try first, reducing just the yeast alone, or the yeast and the water....or the yeast and the oil? or leaving the yeast as is and reducing the water/oil? the possibilities are endless lol

How much can i reduce the oil without affecting the flavour massively?

I guess there's also missing out the autolyse period...

I'll need to have a think about it, i'll be making the next dough in a few days time so i'll report back.

Just when i thought i had it cracked...i feel like i'm back to square one!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2009, 06:06:28 PM »
5thElement,

My personal preference in cases like yours is to resolve the temperature issue first--by trying to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. That is harder to do with a hand kneaded dough, and especially if a prolonged autolyse is used, because by the time the dough is prepared it can have a finished dough temperature that approaches and maybe even reaches room temperature, which may be higher than the desired finished dough temperature. This can happen even if the water is on the cool or cold side. In this scenario, if I wanted to continue to hand knead the dough and use a prolonged autolyse, I suspect my next move would be to decrease the amount of yeast. For example, I might go to 0.35% IDY and I would add it toward the end of the dough making process. It usually isn't good practice to make multiple changes at one time because it is difficult to identify which change, if any, fixed the problem. I would start with the yeast reduction and go from there.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2009, 02:51:02 PM »
Thanks Peter, thats what i thought would be best and as you said, if i make multiple changes, it would be impossible to pinpoint what actually improved it (or made it worse as the case may be!)

I'll make it as usual but reduce the yeast and see how i get on with that and i'll report back on Friday.

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2009, 03:44:09 PM »
This is getting depressing now...

Just had the dough out the fridge for about an hour and it's allready flattened/spread out a fair bit, was able to stretch it out to 12" without even lifting it off the work top, but when i tried lifting it, it stretched out even more and some was stuck and i've had to reball it, and no doubt i'll need to get a rolling pin on it now.

Changes i made this time round, i reduced the yeast to 0.35% and used water out of the fridge. During the autolyse i added the oil and water, rather than adding the oil afterwards.

Result was more or less the same as the last two dough's, possibly slightly better, but not much.

I'll let the reballed dough sit there for 20 minutes before i try stretching it out/cooking it.

Here's the recipe this time round

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.35%):
Salt (1.67%):
Olive Oil (5.39%):
Sugar (1.19%):
Total (168.6%):
237.34 g  |  8.37 oz | 0.52 lbs
142.4 g  |  5.02 oz | 0.31 lbs
0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
3.96 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
12.79 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.84 tsp | 0.95 tbsp
2.82 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
400.15 g | 14.11 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.1248

I've no idea whats going wrong...kneading technique? new flour incapable of absorbing as much water/oil? been working on this for ages now and want to use it where i work as well, but until i get it consistantly right it's going nowhere! really frustrating.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2009, 04:21:54 PM »
5thElement,

No need to despair. We will solve this one.

We both know that the basic recipe works because we both established that, me with my chicken liver pizza and you with your Scottish black pudding/haggis pizza. So, the question is what changed to produce your latest results.

Can you tell me when you made the dough and its age, in hours, as of the time you tried to use the dough? I see that it is still cool in London so I don't see anything to suggest that the finished dough temperature was too high, even if you used an autolyse. For dough temperature to become a problem, it would have to be above about 28 degrees C (82 degrees F). I assume also that your refrigerator temperature was in the normal operating range. If you are using the Allison's strong bread flour, it is hard to imagine that its absorption characteristics are not adequate to the task. Did you by any chance measure any temperatures?

Once I hear back from you, I hope to be able to make some suggestions, or at least ask some followup questions.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:39:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2009, 04:45:57 PM »
This pizza has made a bit of an idiot of me..the end result was great and one of my best yet...i've posted some pictures of it....

I let the re-balled dough sit for about 10-15 minutes and i was able to stretch it on the work top by hand without too much difficulty, a little bit of contracting but nothing out of the ordinary. The crust was pretty tasty and sprung back up to the touch and rose quite nicely in the oven, overall i was really pleased with the pizza.

I'm still not 100% happy though as from what i gather, it shouldn't need re-balling (which i've assumed isn't any good for it) and each time i've had to. The dough is initially very elastic/stretchy/slightly wet, but once reballed seems to feel better.

Changes since the haggis pizza are basically only the flour, tonights and the last pie have been made using Allinsons strong white bread flour. Tonights pie also added the oil into the autolyse, as i hate having to knead the oil in by hand afterwards! i doubt thats really made any difference though.

Unfortunately i don't have a thermometer at home (other than the one in the fridge) so i havn't taken any temperatures (i could borrow one from work no problem though) The fridge has been operating in the correct range also.

As for the age of the dough, it's had atleast 24 hours which includes around an hour and half on the worktop warming up.

Once again Peter, thanks for your patience and persistant help! dunno what i'd do without this place.

Thanks

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2009, 05:04:13 PM »
5thElement,

I agree that it should be possible to make the dough bases without having to re-knead the dough balls and then roll them out after a period of rest. Your recent results seem to suggest a case of overfermentation or possibly overhydration that behaviourally mirrors overfermentation. I am inclined to believe the latter more than the former only because I don't see any signs of anything that you have been doing or have reported that should result in an overfermented dough. Extensible, yes, but overfermentation, no. Consequently, what you perhaps should try next time is to lower the hydration of your dough formulation. I would use 56% and see if that reduces the extensibility of the skins and solves the shaping and stretching problem. I have read and heard a lot about the Allinsons flours but I have never tried them, so it is possible that further adjustment in formula hydration may be needed before we are done. When I have made Papa John's clone doughs, which include a lot of oil (over 7%), I found that using a combination of oil and water whose combined percents roughly equalled the absorption value of the flour I was using (bread flour) worked out very well. Maybe the same approach will work in this case.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2009, 06:43:27 PM »
Looks like i'll give that a try next time, i've noticed when kneading the dough, it certaintly seems more stickier/wetter and i've had to resort to using a little flour on the work top, whereas before i was able to knead it to the point it just came together nicely without using any flour on the worktop.

That also led me to increasing the BRC to 4% this time as i realised more was sticking to my hands the last time resulting in a little loss.

With the lowered hydration, would you recommend increasing the yeast back to 0.5% or leaving it at the lower level of 0.35%?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2009, 06:49:58 PM »
With the lowered hydration, would you recommend increasing the yeast back to 0.5% or leaving it at the lower level of 0.35%?

5thElement,

If hydration is the problem, I don't think it will matter whether you use 0.35% or 0.50% IDY for a 24-hour cold fermented dough, especially since temperature does not seem to be an issue as best I can tell from what you have said and done. If you can get some temperature measurements along the way, I would feel more comfortable, because of the added data points.

Peter


Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2009, 06:15:18 PM »
Hi again,

Time for my weekly update lol

I'm happy to confirm using 56% hydration produced a dough that was alot more manageable (both before and after fermenting)

Before fermenting it produced a nice smooth dough ball which wasn't sticking to everything, but was still slightly tacky and just seemed right.

After fermenting, it didn't all stretch/go wet/sloppy and i was able to shape it on the worktop with relative ease (without any re-balling)

So, i suppose i just need to stick with this hydration next time and see if i can repeat these results.

I guess i've kinda reached the practical limits of this dough formula without drastically altering it.

I'm just baffled as to why the previous 60% hydration seemed to be causing an issue with this new flour?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2009, 06:54:25 PM »
5thElement,

You might try gradually increasing the hydration until you find that the dough misbehaves again. It may be that the particular flour you are using won't tolerate very high hydration values. Usually as you gain more experience working with higher hydration doughs you do get better at it.

I agree that you may have reached the practical limits of the dough without drastically altering it. There are many other dough recipes on the forum for you to experiment with, so just look for one that you think will best meet your particular needs.

Peter

Offline 5thElement

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Re: My first pizza..pictures and couple of questions
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2009, 05:38:32 PM »
Just a quick note to say i tried this recipe again tonight, only difference being that i upped the thickness factor to 0.13, but left the hydration at the 56%.

Result was a perfect dough, easy to shape and stretch, a pleasure to work with.

 :)


 

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