WoW! This weekends experiments (with pics).

[ThunderStik]

So, last sunday I made some balls. 4 of them to be exact for a 14in pie. I normally dont try to change to many things at once but up to this point I have become fairly familiar with my recipe and felt like now is the time to learn a bit more.

Goals.

1) To find out just exactly what over kneading will do.
2) Go with a lower amount of yeast to drag the cold ferment out.
3) Go with a lower hydration as I generally have felt my crusts have been a little more moist than what I like on the inside.


Basics of the recipe.

Gold Medal, Better for bread flour.
55% Hydration.
3% Honey
.25% IDY

The setup.
I use a KA Pro 600 which is a bowl lift model.
Home oven at 600+ degrees (cycles between 600 and 630).
Basic oven setup can be seen here.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660

I didnt expect much from these balls because of what I was about to do to the flour but I must say I was quite suprised.

Started with the paddle to mix and quickly went to the spiral dough hook.

I wont bore you with the entire method. If you want me to I will post it up, it will just be later this evening.

First, I hit this dough for 50 min the dough hook. Thats right, it was right at 50 min
with about a 30 second break every 6-8 min. I though for sure this dough was going to be dead. I never really thought it would live through the pounding.

I pitched the yeast in the last 5 min knead session with a final 30 sec or so of hand work and slapping. This was a very very stiff dough.
I broke it down to 4 even balls and just a touch of spray OO in the bowls and covered in plastic wrap and right into the fridge.

Finished dough temp was 86 degrees.

I was just going to go by feel of the dough (poking it with a finger) to judge when it was ready to bake so I had no idea what kind of timeframe I was looking. Nor did I have any idea if it would work at all.

Day 1, dough was hard as a rock.
Day 2, even harder.
Day 3, same.
Day 4, same.
Day 5, there seems to be a small bit of give to it...but just in one spot.
Day 6, hey its starting to loosen up a good bit.
Day 7, hey its not bad. Lets roast 2 of them and see what we got.

Pulled them out and put them on a very lightly oiled  countertop and still covered in their plastic. I let them set out for 3.5 - 4 hrs to come up to room temp and bake in the evening.

It was not elastic hardly at all except fot the last inch or so. It worked quite easily and I had no trouble getting out to the 14in.

Topped with bacon, italian sausage, fresh mozz and emerils roasted garlic red sauce (hey I didnt have anything better as I was not expecting these things to make it).

HOLY COW! Bar none the best Pizza I have had in well .... I cant rightly remember. Seriously!

I could not believe it. My brother said "SOB ...thats it, we are never going anywhere else for pie ...ever and im serious". Matter fact I got 1 an 1/2 slice out of that first one the rest he inhaled on the spot.

There was zero toughness and just a slight bit of chew the way a good crust should be. I didnt take a crumb pic as it looked exactly like my last one I posted up. I wish I would have now cuz there may be some non believers out there but I have nothing to gain in that so...

Shortly I am going to make sure I can replicate it but as of now... I love it.

Pics in next post. Just one pie as they were both identical.

[ThunderStik]

Sorry for the crappy pics, only cam is a phone (not bad for a phone though).

[ThunderStik]

more

[ThunderStik]

Sorry about this pic. Was holding cam with 1 hand.

[bicster]

Looks great to me, would you mind posting your method?

[ThunderStik]

let me look thru my book and will post it up. It will be a day or so, maybe this weekend but I will put it up for you.

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
Your pizza really looks good.  It sure makes me hungry!  I like how your are experimenting with your pizza. 
Norma

[bicster]

let me look thru my book and will post it up. It will be a day or so, maybe this weekend but I will put it up for you.

Unacceptable, I need it now!

[scott r]

I hope I don't sound like an ass saying this, but you are confirming exactly what I have been preaching on here for years.   I really think 85% of the members of this forum are under kneading their dough.   If you don't belive me just buy a dougball from your favorite local pizzeria and I think you will find that it is REALLY well mixed.  I have a feeling you also found that it was really easy to get a uniformly thick pizza, and that the dough wasn't webby at all.  There probably weren't any super thin, or thick spots, and the dough puffed up in the oven almost instantly.    Horray for a well mixed dough......and you made BEAUTIFUL pizzas my friend.   congratulations!

Next time try going a bit shorter, but you are on the right track for sure!

[Pete-zza]

scott,

You have brought us back to about January 2005 with Steve's post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,824.msg7537.html#msg7537  .

Peter

[scott r]

Too funny! 

[ThunderStik]

Nice memory skills Pete! 


(edited, my typing skills have gone to crap lately  )

[Pete-zza]

ThunderStik,

I remembered Steve's post because I found it to be counter to the advice that I had read at the time for pizza dough. Also, I was aware that a long knead time could oxidize the dough and destroy carotenoid pigments, resulting in an overly "white" dough and negatively affecting crust flavor. One of the reasons why Professor Raymond Calvel devised the autolyse method was to shorten the overall knead time and minimize the negative aspects of long knead times, especially at high mixer speeds. In fact, in his book, The Taste of Bread, Professor Calvel states that he believes the carotenoid pigments to be the "flavor carriers". The open question for me has always been whether a standard home stand mixer, like a KitchenAid mixer, is capable of such destructive behavior, particularly at the speeds normally recommended for making pizza dough. As I noted in the same thread as Steve's post, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,824.msg7704.html#msg7704, I speculated that 20 minutes knead time as speed 2 of my basic KitchenAid mixer was perhaps safe. Your recent experiments suggest the need to do more testing on this subject. However, I can tell you that it is possible to destroy pizza dough from kneading. But you perhaps have to use a food processor to do so in a home setting, as I discussed at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1187.msg10649/topicseen.html#msg10649.

I once researched the matter of knead times in the context of pizza dough for home pizza makers and found that generally the knead times were on the short side, except for 00 flour, for which long knead times are quite common and proper. I summarized my findings in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3204.msg27136.html#msg27136.

Peter

[ThunderStik]

Pete,
         As can be seen in the other thread (with the other 2 balls) there was none of the close cell structure or breadlike qualities. The 7 day pies in this thread were the same.

I have watched my mother in law use her KA mixer (artisan I believe) with the C hook and the action does not even come close to the spiral dough hook on my 600 so I would say in this instance the knead more closely mimics one of the big boys.

All I do know at this point is that long term kneading has not resulted in any really of the negative effects that are spoke of. I also know that they were very nice doughs to handle.

I do find it somewhat uneasy that what I am finding first-hand goes against conventional wisdom. To me the only thing it could be really is well...everything in a commercial environment. But it does make sense to go longer though. In the few places I have spoken to they knead their doughs anywhere from 25 min to 45 min. This was one of the things that set me off to do the experiment in the first place.

If they knead for 25-30 min and our mixer are 50% less efficient then it stands to reason that a longer knead would do the average home baker some good (if they so choose). But of course I keep wondering what effect if any the long slow ferment had on the structure of the balls. Im sure had a person tried to use these in the first 1-4 (maybe even 5) days they would have seen some (if not all) of the ill effects that have talked about. And in a commercial situation I can see how this could be a problem when they want to turn around dough in 16-24hrs. We dont have that problem at home and can put the extra time in and to wait for the structure to break down.

Thoughts?

[Pete-zza]

ThunderStik,

I have learned to think and act like Tom Lehmann--or at least I think I have. This usually means dispensing fairly generic and conventional advice that is calculated to minimize problems. Otherwise, Tom, and I as well, will end up spending an inordinate amount of time correcting, or trying to correct, the problems of others, which is made all the more difficult without seeing first hand what the problems are. So, I am unlikely to advise that others, especially newbies, do a lot of unconventional things. There are several members of the forum who can do unconventional things and succeed but it is usually because of their greater experience and skill sets that have evolved and matured over a fairly long period of time. They have also learned the way that things interrelate with each other, including temperature and time and the biochemistry of dough. They also understand dough formulations, ingredients, equipment, and how to use them. And they know how to get out of trouble and to make mid-course corrections when things start to go wrong. In your case, you deviated from conventional wisdom with your kneading experiments but you laid out everything you did and you also pointed out the potential problem areas, especially those that others are likely to encounter if they decide to use the dough within a day or a few days.

Peter