Author Topic: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)  (Read 2918 times)

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Offline ThunderStik

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14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« on: June 15, 2009, 12:16:43 PM »
So these are the second 2 balls I made in an experiment to find out exactly what the effect of "over-kneading" will do to your dough.

I beat this dough to a pulp for 50min in my KA.

The first 2 were baked at 7 days, I was going to bake the second 2 at 10-11 days but time was not on my side and it ended up being a full 2weeks.

I could tell from the bake that the yeast were running out of fuel by the coleration and the pies didnt brown up quite like normal. I will say though that the taste was outstanding. About exactly the same as the 7 day dough.

These are the first 2 doughs I have taken out past 4 days and I must say that the extra time is totally worth it. I dont know if I have the proper culinary vocabulary to describe it but I will try.

Its seems that there is something in the flavor... a richness,complexity and depth that I have not experienced in the 1-4 cycles. I like it..I love it.

But the really great thing is, 1) The over-kneading, it did not have nearly the effect on the dough that I would have thought. At most I would say maybe a 3-5% extra chew which I happen to like. This is good to know as one could use this I would think if working with a flour with a lower gluten %. 2) The usable window for this dough is quite wide. I would say that it could have been used as early as day 5 or 6...probably 6.
I believe the long slow ferment loosened up the dough naturally from being the over-beaten rock that it was the first few days. Im sure it also helps that the hydration was 55% with a low yeast%. 3) I expected a puddled mass that would be flowing like honey thru my fingers but was suprised to find out that the dough was very nice to work with. I could pick it up and put it over my fist to do the stretching without problems and zero tears. It even still had an amount of elasticity to it.

All in all this is a very forgiving dough with a wide window of useability.

See this thread for pics of the 7 day and more info on the recipe.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8699.msg75345.html#msg75345

Pics in following posts.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:46:41 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 12:17:59 PM »
Bacon mushroom side
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 12:18:58 PM »
Bacon mushroom
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 12:19:22 PM »
Bottom crust.
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 12:20:14 PM »
Chese pie, for my youngest son.
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 12:20:51 PM »
Cheese side profile.
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 12:31:13 PM »
Sorry guys, at some point I will buy a better camera. also the the small specks you see on the rim as just a small amount of garlic salt that I sprinkle on there. The family likes it as do I and the bones are good for dipping in sauces also.

I just found a good source for All Trumps flour so my next batch will be with the new flour. Thanks for having a look.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:23:19 AM by ThunderStik »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 12:41:34 PM »
I would also like to add that because of the 55% hydration the pizza is a "fresh only". Fresh I loved it but it is tough as far as leftovers go. This is the lowest hyd rate I have used and I will try 58-59% next time. It seems that the 63-65 is a little too moist for me. Thats just my personal taste as I also like pies a little extra done.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 04:17:56 PM »
ThunderStik,

Those are great looking pies. Having made long-lived doughs, I know the taste profile you described. It's a combination of color, taste, aroma and texture that reminds one of artisanal breads. Many of my crusts were actually sweet without having added any sugar to the dough.

I agree with you that you can perhaps go higher on the hydration. Based on my experience, I also don't think you need to go 50+ minutes on the kneading.

Out of curiosity, what prompted you to add the yeast toward the end of the mixing/kneading regimen? Also, what water temperature did you use?

Peter

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 04:56:10 PM »
Lahwdhaffmersie! Daz sum beeeeee-uuuu-teeee-fil pizza!
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 05:40:54 PM »
Pete,
         As to the 50 min of knead time it was just an experiment. I much like many here am learning all I can and had been reading many posts about people worried about knead times. I figured I would do an experiment to find out just exactly what a long hard knead would do. Initially I was planning on going until the dough fell apart. The 30sec breaks I took were not for the dough they were for the mixer (KA 600pro) as the dough was stiff and putting a hurtin on my machine. I know from my previous experience that I usually went about 10-15min depending on the type of dough I was using.

At 50 min I gave up. I now know what the effect of EXTREME kneading are and what will happen. The answer is...not a whole lot, a bit of extra chew but nothing that will ruin a pie at all. So once you have the dough combined well not a whole lot else is needed and you really have to work hard to destroy a dough as even at 50 min I couldnt do it. So I hope maybe some folks will worry less about knead times.

The yeast, in my previous 2 batches I pitched it late and noticed that it took an extra 1.5-2 days before the fermentation process got really geared up. Also as I stated earlier, I didnt expect the dough to make it as I had plans on just destroying it and not making pies out of it.

Late in the game at about 40-45 min I figured the dough wasnt going to give up so I pitched it and kneaded for about 5 more min to mix the yeast in thoroughly and called it done.  I knew it would be a while before the ferm process would start so I figured I would just let it drag out until the dough was totally over fermented. But that didnt happen. I started thinking about it and with the lower hyd this will act to restrain the ferm process from getting out of hand. Also I was hoping to find out if the the long ferm process would turn the rock hard dough to a softer more workable dough. And it did.

Im not at the house right now so I dont have my book but if I remember correctly my water temp was room (about 72). I remember this because my finished doughs are usually 74-76 where this one because of the long knead was a full 10 degrees higher.

I also fully dissolved the honey in the water before I poured it in.

Thanks Pete for the comments on the pies. And your right on with the description of the taste description.


Thank you Ronzo.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:26:44 AM by ThunderStik »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 06:58:06 PM »
ThunderStik,

One of the reasons I asked you about the late addition of the IDY is because I experimented with that approach and also found that it added some extra time to the fermentation process, as I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33253.html#msg33253. Another example is given at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. Another interesting alternative is to use dry ADY, either at the end of the dough kneading process, as discussed at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060, or in the flour itself from the beginning, as discussed at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308.

In your case, with the long experimental knead time, I wonder whether the dough would be usable after a day or two, especially with the lower hydration level you used. It seems to me that it would take quite a long time for the enzymes to break down the gluten mesh to the point where the dough can be easily handled to make skins.

Do you plan to teach your brother how to make his own pizzas, or does he plan to move in with you and your family to be assured a constant supply of pizzas?

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 07:44:22 PM »
Pete,
       Thanks for the good reads.

I believe at no point in the first 3-4 days would the balls have been useable. They were rock hard, i mean to the point you could "thump" and just hear a "thud" and leave no marks kinda hard. So yes it did take a while for the enzymes to break down the dough.


LOL, my brother wont be making pies anytime soon. Matter of fact he does live with us. We have a good size house with a large downstairs that we never ever use. He lost his job a while back so I just told him to move in.

We like having him around as he and I get alon well. While he has a job now we just told him to stay as we are good friends, he plays guitar in my band (I play bass), he is good with my kids and he helps out alot. Plus he makes the worlds best burgers. When I/my wife want burgers we just bring the meat home. When he wants pizza, he knows the next batch isnt to far off. When we want sweets we bother the wife. Its kinda nice, between the 3 of us we make a good cook.  :-D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:28:28 AM by ThunderStik »
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Offline jeff v

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 09:07:19 PM »
ThunderStik,

The pizza looks great, and what an interesting experiment! I must say I am surprised that the dough made it so long, but now I am going to try it.

Thanks for the idea,

Jeff
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 09:10:30 AM »
They look great, but I have no idea how they lasted 14 days, or even 7. I notice the yeast % is .25% as opposed to .40% that you usually see for Lehmann. adding honey as opposed to sugar perhaps explains why it lasts 7, but I can't imagine it going to 14 without the yeast dying off. Glutenboy uses ultra low yeast and no sugar to go 7 days. My perception was it was the lack of sugar, or honey in this case, that kept it alive so lone. (Not much to eat) So this whole concept is very confusing to me as it negates all I thought I understood about yeast and how it survives.

That said, again the pies look great!  :chef:
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 09:57:12 AM »
NY,
     I believe some of what is going on is 1) This was a low hydration dough (55%). The more moisture in the environment the more the yeast are going to thrive and the opposite is also true. 2) From my previous experience I know that adding the yeast late in the process will add 1.5-2 days to the process as opposed to adding it in the beginning.

I think when you add these things in with the lower amount of yeast used you get the situation that I have. Once the balls started coming up to room temp they became fairly active and rose quite a bit. So there was still a good amount of food there for them.

As far as taste, I will say that these were the best tasting pies I have ever made. In the last 5 months or so I have made quite a few batches (usually at least 1 per week). The way I see it is the only way to get good at something is experience so I have made a good bit of pizza. But honestly the pies that came from this batch had the best flavor of any that i have ever made.

Was it a fluke? I dont know as I have yet to try and reproduce it but at this point I have to believe the density of the ball because of the kneading had to play a part in it also but I cannot back this up as I have not done sufficient research into yeast to fully understand them.

Is it worth a try? I dont think it is at this point as it has only happened once. I will try to duplicate it at some point in the near future, if it works out the same then there is something there. But just after a "one off" it could easily be an anomoly that only exists at "X" hyd% and "Y" temp. If I can move the hyd% up a bit and still get the same results and the same type of useability window it would be a great thing though.

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:31:44 AM by ThunderStik »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 10:43:45 AM »
ThunderStik,

All else being equal, a high hydration dough will ferment faster than a low hydration dough. But in the example I gave at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081, I used a hydration of 65%, along with 0.60% IDY, and the dough lasted over 12 days, without any added sugar in the dough. Unlike Glutenboy's case, in which he used a very small dough ball size, which promotes faster cooling, my dough ball weight was over 21 ounces. I used very cold water and a metal storage container, but I think there are other factors involved, including when the IDY is added to the dough. I attempted to analyze the latter matter at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928, but I think there are other, hard to explain phenomena that come into play. The most concentrated discussions on this topic are at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Reading that thread is like getting a PhD degree in pizza dough.

NY Pizzastriver may find Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556 of interest because it describes a 23-day old dough and pizza, again using no sugar in the dough. A 15-day version is described and shown in Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092. Again, no sugar in the dough.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »
Interesting stuff, thanks Thunder, and yeah I really want to try this out.

Peter, yes I see in the 15 day pie is .25% Yeast as well. I also see your point with a 447g ball and the cooling factors, over a 230g for example. This also is aided in making bigger pies, raising the question has anyone gone 15 days with 12" balls individually contained?
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Offline JConk007

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 09:00:54 PM »
NY Striver Based on your other post you can do 1 each day and take it to 16 days!!
cant wait for the results. Or drop 5 off at my house on friday and we cancook em up next week! Jersey Style! ;D
John
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: 14 day cold ferm,Lehmann dough. (with pics)
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 09:33:33 AM »
Yeah! We'll make "Springsteen Specials", that's pizza where you 'Drive All Night' down 'Thunder Road' to reach the 'Promised Land' of pizza making.
 8)
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1