Author Topic: Help recover failed dough !  (Read 6122 times)

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Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Help recover failed dough !
« on: June 28, 2009, 11:30:09 AM »
So I tried to repeat some recent success with pizza hut style pizza but i messed something up.

The dough this time was left in the fridge as per instruction but it's not rising like it was when i left it out of the fridge to rise.

Also this time i used warmer water (with a thermometer @ 110 degrees ). Also I used all-purpose flour instead of bread to see if it would be lighter.

I now have two pans in the fridge not rising. Is there any clever way to make the most of it or is it just trash ???

Thanks.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 12:58:49 PM »
Don't throw away the dough. How long has the dough been in the refrigerator?

Peter

Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 01:41:22 PM »
Pete,

My wife asked me to cook it anyway b/c my two girls were hungry. I heated up the dough to room temp then removed and let the oven and stone heat up to 500 for about 30 minutes. I baked and much to my surprise everything turned out very similar to my previous attempt when the room-temp rising was excellent.

????

To your question, the dough was in the fridge for about 20 hours, one pan rose to maybe 115% of original volume. The other even less than that. My previous batch rose to about 190% of original volume.

The difference this time was just that it had slightly less air inside, and flavor in the dough tasted "simpler"  (as if less salty even though salt measure was equal)

I can still say it was delicious, especially since i put more cheese and sauce compared to last time. I'm glad to learn that this recipe has a large margin of error.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 01:48:23 PM »
Miami_Pizzaman,

Refrigeration effectively puts the yeast to sleep so the dough will not rise as much. I would have expected some rise of the dough in the refrigerator because of the use of the warm water. From what you now report, that appears to have been the case.

Alls well that ends well.

Peter

Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 02:47:27 PM »
So then the warm water allowed some yeast activity before the mass could be cooled by the fridge temp?

What, then, is the purpose of putting the dough in the fridge as so many recipies indicate?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 03:00:45 PM »
Miami_Pizzaman,

Yes, the warmer water allowed the dough to start to ferment and that meant that it would take longer for the refrigerator to cool the dough down.

During the time that the dough is in the refrigerator, the enzymes and bacteria can still perform, even if slowed down a bit, resulting in increased byproducts of fermentation that contribute to the flavor, color, aroma and texture of the finished crust. Some people, including many professionals, like to work with cold fermented doughs rather than room temperature fermented doughs because it is easier to work with and manage cold fermented doughs than room temperature fermented doughs that can be subject to many variations in room temperature, including seasonal variations over the course of a year. Cold fermentation is also more conducive to inventory control because dough balls can be held in storage longer and not thrown away or recycled, as might occur with room-temperature dough balls that are not used by the end of the day. For most of us who are not professionals, the main reason for using cold fermented dough is because of the positive attributes mentioned above.

Peter


Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 03:08:52 PM »
Interesting.  My first batch probably had more of this activity that you're mentioning. (bacteria and enzymes). .....and it did have a more complex and tasty flavor.  I'm guessing four hours at room temp yields more activity than 20 hours of fridge storage. I wonder if the order of temp control matters; for example:  what would the differnence be between 20 hours cold followed by 3 hours room versus 3 hours room followed by 20 hours cold.

As to more a more airy crust, the internet is saying more yeast, more kneading, and more gluten; but it's not saying what the drawbacks are to each of those.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 03:48:00 PM »
Miami_Pizzaman,

You used about 1.2% ADY, which is a bit on the high side, even for a dough that is to be made and used within a few hours. At that level, there will be a fair amount of fermentation activity at room temperatures and a lot of gas (carbon dioxide) production. It usually takes quite a while to get high levels of fermentation byproducts with a cold fermented dough. In your case, you may have gotten more of a "yeasty" taste with your original pizza. Also, since you used all-purpose flour rather than bread flour for the latest version, you perhaps got a bit less "wheat" flavor because bread flour has more protein and other components that can contribute to more crust flavor than you will get using all-purpose flour.

Most pizza dough recipes you will find on the internet usually call for a lot of yeast and being able to make and use the dough within a fairly short period of time. Occasionally, a recipe will call for an optional period of cold fermentation. This forum goes far beyond those simple objectives.

Peter

Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 04:55:03 PM »
Thanks Pete,

I used All Purpose b/c I was at Barnes and Noble bookstore the other day and a book about pizza there called for All Purpose for the Pan-style pizza. Also I figured it may feel "lighter" even if the flavor was "simpler". In the end, although other factors were in play, the flavor was less but it WASN'T "lighter".

How could I tell if a room-temp rise and fermentation get to the point of "dangerous"?  The dough had a smell that didn't seem to contain anything I could describe as offensive or suspicious. In fact, it had a slightly alcoholic component. (good). The fridge temp dough had very little smell at all.

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 05:10:26 PM »
Miami_Pizzaman,

I don't know how long it would take for a dough to become "dangerous" if, by "dangerous", you mean a crust made from the dough would be unhealthy to eat. However, a dough can become unusable if it ferments to the point where there is significant depletion of the natural (and any added) sugars and the yeast goes into starvation mode. That would be the point of fatal overproofing or overfermentation. This condition is usually accompanied by breakdown of the gluten structure (because of the action of certain enzymes) and release of water into the dough, making the dough wet and slack. At this point, it is not worth trying to salvage the dough since that almost never works.

The "alcohol" smell you detected was most likely ethyl alcohol, which is a normal byproduct of fermentation. Most cold fermented doughs tend to use much smaller amounts of yeast than room temperature fermented doughs, especially those that are allowed to ferment for exceedingly long times, so you are not as likely to get the alcohol odor. About the only times I can recall where I got a real whiff of alcohol has been with long room-temperature fermented doughs. I did get some complex aromas from doughs that I cold fermented for long periods but that was after about 15-20 days of cold fermentation.

Peter



Offline Miami_Pizzaman

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 07:45:45 PM »
Thanks Pete.

Before these Pan Pizzas I tried my luck at Thin Craker style. Only the last of my three attempts were successful, and that's b/c i added several ingredients to the DKM recipe. Is the risk of unhealthy or unstable dough more prevalent if butter or other fat is included?  I added about 50g of butter to the DKM and let it rise at room temp for several hours.

I read at the bookstore that the thin-style benefits more from extra fermentation time than other types.

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Re: Help recover failed dough !
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 08:04:56 PM »
Miami_Pizzaman,

I have not read or seen anything to suggest that the use of butter in a dough leads to a less safe pizza product than one that does not include it, unless the concern is about trans fats or saturated fats as a general health issue. There are quite a few dough recipes on the forum that call for using butter. I have seen no evidence that suggests that using butter in reasonable quantities (which is usually specified in recipes) renders a dough unstable. Oil and butter in pizza dough formulations can be substituted for each other without any problems.

Cracker-style doughs usually contain considerably less water than other types of doughs, which means that they will ferment more slowly. Hence, their fermentation times will usually be longer than for other types of doughs with higher hydrations. The DKM dough formulation you used calls for a hydration of around 36%. By contrast, the Pizza Hut pan clone dough you made has a hydration of about 56%.

Peter