Author Topic: AllTrumps  (Read 9957 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 02:51:04 PM »
I was able to find an ingredients list for the Ovaltine Classic Malt powder at the Wegman's website. There are a lot of goodies--including a lot of sources of crust coloration--in the product:

Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Peter


Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »
Damn you, Peter.  As I was posting this a second ago, it says "someone has posted, you may wish to re-post".  Thought I had you beat to the punch!  It was undetectable to the flavor, but the browning was spectacular.

Ingredients:
Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Warnings:
Made on equipment that also processes soy and wheat.

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size: 4 tbsp
Servings Per Container: 16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   mix with 1 cup fat free vit. a & d milk
Calories 80 170
     Calories from Fat 0 0
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Amount Per Serving and/or % Daily Value*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Total Fat 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Saturated Fat 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Trans Fat 0 g 0 g
Cholesterol 0 mg (0%) 5 mg (2%)
Sodium 55 mg (2%) 185 mg (8%)
Total Carbohydrate 18 g (6%) 30 g (10%)
     Dietary Fiber 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Sugars 14 g 26 g
Protein 2 g 10 g
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Vitamin A 45% 50%
Vitamin C 45% 50%
Calcium 8% 40%
Iron 15% 15%
Vitamin D 50% 80%
Thiamin (B1) 60% 60%
Riboflavin (B2) 45% 70%
Niacin 45% 45%
Vitamin B6 45% 50%
Phosphorus 8% 30%

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2009, 03:45:42 PM »
SSG,

For your information, and for the benefit of the members who decide to try your recipe, a teaspoon of any of the Ovaltine products weighs 0.0617283 oz. By contrast, a teaspoon of the Carnation original malted milk product weighs 0.0823045 oz. It is possible that in both cases, a teaspoon or tablespoon of either product is intended to mean a "heaping" teaspoon or tablespoon, which would make sense for a drink, rather than a level teaspoon or tablespoon. Either way, if you used 4.43 tablespoons of the Ovaltine Classsic Malt powder, that would have amounted to 0.8203691 oz., or 23.257463 g., which translates to a baker's percent of 1.13% rather than 1.5%. The Malted Milk Powder entry of the expanded dough calculating tool can still be used, but the ounce weight in the table will have to be divided by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

As a simple example, if my math is right, the formulation for a single 16" pizza would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt (1.69%):
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%):
Total (169.1775%):
345.35 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
224.48 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.49 lbs
4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
5.84 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
3.9 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
584.26 g | 20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs | TF = 0.1025
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

BTW, if you have a pizza stone big enough to accommodate a 16" pizza, with only 1.13% Ovaltine mix I think you might be able to bake the pizza directly on the stone without having the bottom crust burn. If the bottom crust browns too quickly, you can slip one of your pizza screens under the pizza to lift it off of the stone to finish baking.

I meant to mention it earlier but a 16" skin is harder to shape and stretch than a smaller one, especially a skin with a hydration of 65%. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the skins you made were quite extensible. That makes a skin more prone to thin spots.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 04:06:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2009, 05:21:19 PM »
Everything was added by weight on a 1/10th gram scale.  I do have a large fibrament stone, and will give it a shot next time around w/o the screen.  If I want to go to a longer rise to develop more flavor (i.e. a dough with a 72-96 hour window), what would you recommend on yeast / malt amounts?

Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2009, 06:03:32 PM »
SSG,

I have a special scale that can measure small amounts of lightweight ingredients but I only use it where I don't have a volume equivalent. I use my regular digital scale to weigh flour and water but for everything else I use the volume measurements spit out by the dough calculating tools. However, in your case, where you are making a much bigger dough batch than I use, you may be able to use your scale to weigh out more ingredients than I do.

If you would like to retain the 65% hydration and go out three to four days, I think you will have to scale way back on the IDY so that the dough doesn't overferment. Using more sugar, or Ovaltine, is not likely to save you from an overfermention situation. Depending on where you live and whether it is hot/warm or cold/cool this time of year, you may have to go to IDY somewhere in the range of 0.20-0.30%. Where I am in Texas, where it has been around 95-104 degrees F for several days straight (and a correspondingly warm kitchen), I would perhaps go even lower than 0.20% IDY. When I conduct experiments like this to adapt an existing recipe to another version, I use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html and I monitor the volume expansion of the dough to see when it just about doubles. Depending on when that occurs relative to when I would like it to occur, I use that information to determine if and in which direction I might have to adjust the yeast for the next iteration.

As for the Ovaltine, I think it is safe to view it as primarily a sugar product (the sugar, maltodextrine, and barley malt syrup are high up on the ingredients list). On this basis, 1.13% Ovaltine is perhaps a pretty good number. However, I think you could go to 1.5% without inviting potential bottom crust browning/burning problems. That is one of those cases where you may have to do some experimenting. In addition to the contribution of the sugars to crust color development (and other normal purposes), you also have the caramel color, beet color and molasses to contribute to crust coloration (perhaps in a minor way because of their small amounts) and some whey and other dairy products in the Ovaltine that will also contribute to the crust coloration because of the lactose sugars in the dairy products.

I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.

Peter

Offline pwaldman

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 09:05:04 PM »
I was fascinated by the use of Ovaltine to add to the color so I ran to the store to get some.  I made up a couple of dough balls for 14" pies and let them cold ferment for 4 days.  I used Kyrol flour instead of All Trumps but I believe they are very similar.  Here is the formula I used:

Flour (100%)
Water (61%)
IDY (.2%)
Salt (1.75%)
Olive Oil (1%)
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%)
Total (169.1775%)
TF = .08

I used Grande East Coast Blend and on one of the pies I tried Patrick Cudahy Pepato (spicy) pepperoni for the first time.  I use a 2 Stone Oven and cooked at 6000.  Great results overall with the crust color getting nice and brown, crispy and light.  I've included a few photos.

Thanks for the tip on Ovaltine! :chef:

Pete W

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2009, 10:35:17 AM »
We've created an Ovaltine Monster!  Pizza looks great, I did it again this weekend, and it come out very similar, except halfed the yeast and gave it a full 36 hours in the fridge.  Same browning qualities, had some micro-bubbles on the crust, and it seemed to have a deeper flavor.  I can say that Steve's Ovaltine Monster Crust is my new 'go-to' pie...  Also, I extended the knead a bit, and the dough formed skins much easier, even when forming 16's.  Considerably fewer (really only one on one skin) think spots.

Steve

Offline NepaBill

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 12:47:38 PM »
I am a big fan of General Mills (G.M.)  All Trump flours.  I have recently switched from 50111 (bleached bromated) to 50121 (unbleached bromated).  What is the deal with bromated flour?  Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use?  I have spoken with an employee of G.M. in the past regarding the many variations of All Trumps. She has stated in her e-mail that bromated flours are not available in the Western US..

Reply from Brenda:

 Hello Bill, can you tell me where you are located?  This is an important piece of information I would need to answer your questions.  Our bromated flours are not available in the Western U.S.  Thank you,

Brenda


Bill...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 04:29:32 PM »
I did it again this weekend, and it come out very similar, except halfed the yeast and gave it a full 36 hours in the fridge....  Also, I extended the knead a bit, and the dough formed skins much easier, even when forming 16's.  Considerably fewer (really only one on one skin) think spots.


Steve, 

Were the above changes the only changes you made?

Peter

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 08:33:17 PM »
Pete,

Sorry, been in Ontario catching Walleyes for a week.  Those were the only changes and it came out as I'd hoped.  Don't think I'll change a thing from my second attempt.  Though I did make a mistake in the post...think I said 36 hours, it was actually a 72 hour time in the fridge, along with the reduction in IDY, and I took about another 2 minutes into the knead.  And I also apologize for all the typos in my previous post.  If it hadn't of been 10 in the morning, I'd blame it on cocktails.

SSG


Offline tdeane

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 12:57:39 AM »
I am a big fan of General Mills (G.M.)  All Trump flours.  I have recently switched from 50111 (bleached bromated) to 50121 (unbleached bromated).  What is the deal with bromated flour?  Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use?  I have spoken with an employee of G.M. in the past regarding the many variations of All Trumps. She has stated in her e-mail that bromated flours are not available in the Western US..

Reply from Brenda:

 Hello Bill, can you tell me where you are located?  This is an important piece of information I would need to answer your questions.  Our bromated flours are not available in the Western U.S.  Thank you,

Brenda


Bill...
Bromated flour is illegal in most of the world not just Canada.

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 12:58:47 AM »
Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use? 

Bromate=carcinogen.
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 11:08:44 AM »
Bromate = yum.  Here is a short list of other cancer causers...I'm gonna risk it and eat damn good pizza along the way!

 * Dove Beauty Bar: It's 99% water, but watch out for that other 1%. It includes quaternium 15 and formaldehyde, known carcinogens, as well as irritants to the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes.

 * Johnson's Baby Shampoo: Contains carcinogens quaterium 15, FD&C RED 40, which can cause dermatitis.

 * Crest Tarter Control Toothpaste: This best selling toothpaste contains saccharin and phenol fluoride.

 * Talcum powder: Talc, the main ingredient, is a carcinogen that increases the risk of ovarian cancer.

 * Cover Girl Replenishing Natural Finish Make Up (foundation): This makeup includes BHA, talc, titanium dioxide, triethanolamine. These interact with nitrites to form nitrosamines and lanolin, which is often contaminated with DDT and other carcinogenic pesticides

o Tide & Cheer Laundry Detergent: Our favorite detergent contains trisodium nitrilotriacetate, a carcinogen.

* Lysol Disinfectant: While it makes the air sweet smelling, it contains the dioxin.

* Oscar Meyer beef hot dogs: Labeled ingredients in this American favorite include nitrite, which interacts with meat amines to form nitrosamines. Tests have also found other carcinogens such as benzene hexachloride, dacthal, dieldrin, DDT, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, and lindane. If you have to eat hot dogs, look for ones without nitrates in them.

* Whole milk: Certain containers contain DDT, dieldrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, recombinant bovine growth hormone and Igf-1. All of these increase the chances of getting breast, colon and prostate cancers. Look for RBGH-free organic milk.

* Zodiac flea collars: These dog collars include the labeled carcinogen propoxur. Try Trader Joe’s herbal flea collars instead.

* Carpets: Some carpets are made or finished with petrolatum-based chemicals. These chemicals can "outgas" into the home. Petrolatum is believed to a human carcinogen.

Offline abilak

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »
Kinda stirring up an old thread here, but PennMac.com has the unbleached/unbromated all trumps flour in a 50# bag. I have ordered it numerous times. I have the 50# bromated bag now, but I guess I'm going back to the unbromated or KASL after reading all the stuff regarding the topic. Sucks because I actually like the bromated flour A LOT better overall.

Offline Scotto

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 04:52:13 PM »
I use the bromated version of All-Trumps pretty exclusively, especially now that I acquired a 50# bag from the local baker.  I find the texture very unique - a crisp shell on the top and bottom of the crust/rim, surrounding a very tender center.

Offline dbgtr

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2009, 04:05:26 PM »
Scottr, do you prefer the unbromated All Trumps to the KABF, or is there another high gluten malted bread flour that you like in place of the bromated All Trumps?

Offline Matthew

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »
I was able to find an ingredients list for the Ovaltine Classic Malt powder at the Wegman's website. There are a lot of goodies--including a lot of sources of crust coloration--in the product:

Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Peter

I picked up some Ovaltine this morning from the grocery store.  I didn't buy the Ovaltine Classic because for some reason the one in Canada seems to be different than the US one.  Ovaltine Classic in Canada contains cocoa powder.  What I purchased instead is Ovaltine malted milk drink mix.  The ingredients in this order are:  Malt extract, Whole Milk Powder, Whey Powder, Sugar, Palm Oil, Butter Oil, Oligofructcose, Sodium biocarbonate, Salt.  Is there any benefit to using this in my dough?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2009, 06:48:09 PM »
Is there any benefit to using this in my dough?

Matt,

November apparently finds it beneficial for certain doughs. If you do a forum search using "malted milk" and November's user name, you will find several of his posts, and some dough recipes as well.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 05:14:04 PM »
SSG,

For your information, and for the benefit of the members who decide to try your recipe, a teaspoon of any of the Ovaltine products weighs 0.0617283 oz. By contrast, a teaspoon of the Carnation original malted milk product weighs 0.0823045 oz. It is possible that in both cases, a teaspoon or tablespoon of either product is intended to mean a "heaping" teaspoon or tablespoon, which would make sense for a drink, rather than a level teaspoon or tablespoon. Either way, if you used 4.43 tablespoons of the Ovaltine Classsic Malt powder, that would have amounted to 0.8203691 oz., or 23.257463 g., which translates to a baker's percent of 1.13% rather than 1.5%. The Malted Milk Powder entry of the expanded dough calculating tool can still be used, but the ounce weight in the table will have to be divided by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

As a simple example, if my math is right, the formulation for a single 16" pizza would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt (1.69%):
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%):
Total (169.1775%):
345.35 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
224.48 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.49 lbs
4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
5.84 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
3.9 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
584.26 g | 20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs | TF = 0.1025
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

BTW, if you have a pizza stone big enough to accommodate a 16" pizza, with only 1.13% Ovaltine mix I think you might be able to bake the pizza directly on the stone without having the bottom crust burn. If the bottom crust browns too quickly, you can slip one of your pizza screens under the pizza to lift it off of the stone to finish baking.

I meant to mention it earlier but a 16" skin is harder to shape and stretch than a smaller one, especially a skin with a hydration of 65%. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the skins you made were quite extensible. That makes a skin more prone to thin spots.

Peter

I want top make this recipe but how do I put in the ovaltine into the dough calculator its not there?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »
I want top make this recipe but how do I put in the ovaltine into the dough calculator its not there?

David,

You are correct. Ovaltine is not in the expanded dough calculating tool. However, if you go back and read what I wrote in the post you quoted, you will see that I said that you can use the Malted Milk Powder entry of the tool and divide the ounce weight in the table by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

Peter