Author Topic: AllTrumps  (Read 11884 times)

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Offline pwaldman

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 09:05:04 PM »
I was fascinated by the use of Ovaltine to add to the color so I ran to the store to get some.  I made up a couple of dough balls for 14" pies and let them cold ferment for 4 days.  I used Kyrol flour instead of All Trumps but I believe they are very similar.  Here is the formula I used:

Flour (100%)
Water (61%)
IDY (.2%)
Salt (1.75%)
Olive Oil (1%)
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%)
Total (169.1775%)
TF = .08

I used Grande East Coast Blend and on one of the pies I tried Patrick Cudahy Pepato (spicy) pepperoni for the first time.  I use a 2 Stone Oven and cooked at 6000.  Great results overall with the crust color getting nice and brown, crispy and light.  I've included a few photos.

Thanks for the tip on Ovaltine! :chef:

Pete W


Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2009, 10:35:17 AM »
We've created an Ovaltine Monster!  Pizza looks great, I did it again this weekend, and it come out very similar, except halfed the yeast and gave it a full 36 hours in the fridge.  Same browning qualities, had some micro-bubbles on the crust, and it seemed to have a deeper flavor.  I can say that Steve's Ovaltine Monster Crust is my new 'go-to' pie...  Also, I extended the knead a bit, and the dough formed skins much easier, even when forming 16's.  Considerably fewer (really only one on one skin) think spots.

Steve

Offline NepaBill

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 12:47:38 PM »
I am a big fan of General Mills (G.M.)  All Trump flours.  I have recently switched from 50111 (bleached bromated) to 50121 (unbleached bromated).  What is the deal with bromated flour?  Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use?  I have spoken with an employee of G.M. in the past regarding the many variations of All Trumps. She has stated in her e-mail that bromated flours are not available in the Western US..

Reply from Brenda:

 Hello Bill, can you tell me where you are located?  This is an important piece of information I would need to answer your questions.  Our bromated flours are not available in the Western U.S.  Thank you,

Brenda


Bill...

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 04:29:32 PM »
I did it again this weekend, and it come out very similar, except halfed the yeast and gave it a full 36 hours in the fridge....  Also, I extended the knead a bit, and the dough formed skins much easier, even when forming 16's.  Considerably fewer (really only one on one skin) think spots.


Steve, 

Were the above changes the only changes you made?

Peter

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 08:33:17 PM »
Pete,

Sorry, been in Ontario catching Walleyes for a week.  Those were the only changes and it came out as I'd hoped.  Don't think I'll change a thing from my second attempt.  Though I did make a mistake in the post...think I said 36 hours, it was actually a 72 hour time in the fridge, along with the reduction in IDY, and I took about another 2 minutes into the knead.  And I also apologize for all the typos in my previous post.  If it hadn't of been 10 in the morning, I'd blame it on cocktails.

SSG

Offline tdeane

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 12:57:39 AM »
I am a big fan of General Mills (G.M.)  All Trump flours.  I have recently switched from 50111 (bleached bromated) to 50121 (unbleached bromated).  What is the deal with bromated flour?  Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use?  I have spoken with an employee of G.M. in the past regarding the many variations of All Trumps. She has stated in her e-mail that bromated flours are not available in the Western US..

Reply from Brenda:

 Hello Bill, can you tell me where you are located?  This is an important piece of information I would need to answer your questions.  Our bromated flours are not available in the Western U.S.  Thank you,

Brenda


Bill...
Bromated flour is illegal in most of the world not just Canada.

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 12:58:47 AM »
Why would it be outlawed in Canada for commercial use? 

Bromate=carcinogen.
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 11:08:44 AM »
Bromate = yum.  Here is a short list of other cancer causers...I'm gonna risk it and eat damn good pizza along the way!

 * Dove Beauty Bar: It's 99% water, but watch out for that other 1%. It includes quaternium 15 and formaldehyde, known carcinogens, as well as irritants to the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes.

 * Johnson's Baby Shampoo: Contains carcinogens quaterium 15, FD&C RED 40, which can cause dermatitis.

 * Crest Tarter Control Toothpaste: This best selling toothpaste contains saccharin and phenol fluoride.

 * Talcum powder: Talc, the main ingredient, is a carcinogen that increases the risk of ovarian cancer.

 * Cover Girl Replenishing Natural Finish Make Up (foundation): This makeup includes BHA, talc, titanium dioxide, triethanolamine. These interact with nitrites to form nitrosamines and lanolin, which is often contaminated with DDT and other carcinogenic pesticides

o Tide & Cheer Laundry Detergent: Our favorite detergent contains trisodium nitrilotriacetate, a carcinogen.

* Lysol Disinfectant: While it makes the air sweet smelling, it contains the dioxin.

* Oscar Meyer beef hot dogs: Labeled ingredients in this American favorite include nitrite, which interacts with meat amines to form nitrosamines. Tests have also found other carcinogens such as benzene hexachloride, dacthal, dieldrin, DDT, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, and lindane. If you have to eat hot dogs, look for ones without nitrates in them.

* Whole milk: Certain containers contain DDT, dieldrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, recombinant bovine growth hormone and Igf-1. All of these increase the chances of getting breast, colon and prostate cancers. Look for RBGH-free organic milk.

* Zodiac flea collars: These dog collars include the labeled carcinogen propoxur. Try Trader Joe’s herbal flea collars instead.

* Carpets: Some carpets are made or finished with petrolatum-based chemicals. These chemicals can "outgas" into the home. Petrolatum is believed to a human carcinogen.

Offline abilak

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »
Kinda stirring up an old thread here, but PennMac.com has the unbleached/unbromated all trumps flour in a 50# bag. I have ordered it numerous times. I have the 50# bromated bag now, but I guess I'm going back to the unbromated or KASL after reading all the stuff regarding the topic. Sucks because I actually like the bromated flour A LOT better overall.


Offline Scotto

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 04:52:13 PM »
I use the bromated version of All-Trumps pretty exclusively, especially now that I acquired a 50# bag from the local baker.  I find the texture very unique - a crisp shell on the top and bottom of the crust/rim, surrounding a very tender center.

Offline dbgtr

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2009, 04:05:26 PM »
Scottr, do you prefer the unbromated All Trumps to the KABF, or is there another high gluten malted bread flour that you like in place of the bromated All Trumps?

Offline Matthew

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »
I was able to find an ingredients list for the Ovaltine Classic Malt powder at the Wegman's website. There are a lot of goodies--including a lot of sources of crust coloration--in the product:

Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Peter

I picked up some Ovaltine this morning from the grocery store.  I didn't buy the Ovaltine Classic because for some reason the one in Canada seems to be different than the US one.  Ovaltine Classic in Canada contains cocoa powder.  What I purchased instead is Ovaltine malted milk drink mix.  The ingredients in this order are:  Malt extract, Whole Milk Powder, Whey Powder, Sugar, Palm Oil, Butter Oil, Oligofructcose, Sodium biocarbonate, Salt.  Is there any benefit to using this in my dough?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2009, 06:48:09 PM »
Is there any benefit to using this in my dough?

Matt,

November apparently finds it beneficial for certain doughs. If you do a forum search using "malted milk" and November's user name, you will find several of his posts, and some dough recipes as well.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 05:14:04 PM »
SSG,

For your information, and for the benefit of the members who decide to try your recipe, a teaspoon of any of the Ovaltine products weighs 0.0617283 oz. By contrast, a teaspoon of the Carnation original malted milk product weighs 0.0823045 oz. It is possible that in both cases, a teaspoon or tablespoon of either product is intended to mean a "heaping" teaspoon or tablespoon, which would make sense for a drink, rather than a level teaspoon or tablespoon. Either way, if you used 4.43 tablespoons of the Ovaltine Classsic Malt powder, that would have amounted to 0.8203691 oz., or 23.257463 g., which translates to a baker's percent of 1.13% rather than 1.5%. The Malted Milk Powder entry of the expanded dough calculating tool can still be used, but the ounce weight in the table will have to be divided by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

As a simple example, if my math is right, the formulation for a single 16" pizza would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt (1.69%):
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%):
Total (169.1775%):
345.35 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
224.48 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.49 lbs
4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
5.84 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
3.9 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
584.26 g | 20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs | TF = 0.1025
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

BTW, if you have a pizza stone big enough to accommodate a 16" pizza, with only 1.13% Ovaltine mix I think you might be able to bake the pizza directly on the stone without having the bottom crust burn. If the bottom crust browns too quickly, you can slip one of your pizza screens under the pizza to lift it off of the stone to finish baking.

I meant to mention it earlier but a 16" skin is harder to shape and stretch than a smaller one, especially a skin with a hydration of 65%. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the skins you made were quite extensible. That makes a skin more prone to thin spots.

Peter

I want top make this recipe but how do I put in the ovaltine into the dough calculator its not there?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »
I want top make this recipe but how do I put in the ovaltine into the dough calculator its not there?

David,

You are correct. Ovaltine is not in the expanded dough calculating tool. However, if you go back and read what I wrote in the post you quoted, you will see that I said that you can use the Malted Milk Powder entry of the tool and divide the ounce weight in the table by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2009, 09:38:17 PM »
This is what I got, I just noticed that the recipe was for a 16" pizza. I put in that I wanted 10 12" pizza's is this right. I divided the .62 ounces of the powder by .06172863 and got 10.20 ounces

Flour (100%):    1592.94 g  |  56.19 oz | 3.51 lbs
Water (65%):    1035.41 g  |  36.52 oz | 2.28 lbs
IDY (1.3575%):    21.62 g | 0.76 oz | 0.05 lbs | 7.18 tsp | 2.39 tbsp
Salt (1.69%):    26.92 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.82 tsp | 1.61 tbsp
Malted Milk Powder (1.13%):    18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 7.71 tsp | 2.57 tbsp
Total (169.1775%):   2694.9 g | 95.06 oz | 5.94 lbs | TF = 0.08405
Single Ball:   269.49 g | 9.51 oz | 0.59 lbs

Online Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2009, 09:47:30 PM »
David,

What thickness factor did you enter into the tool and what bowl residue compensation did you use?

Peter


Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2009, 09:15:33 AM »
.082 TF and 2.5% residue.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2009, 10:10:24 AM »
.082 TF and 2.5% residue.

David,

Thanks. The tool doesn't provide that information. I would have to guess.

Your use of the tool was correct. However, the 0.63 ounces of Ovaltine translates to 10.21 level teaspoons, or 3 level tablespoons plus one level teaspoon plus about a quarter teaspoon.

BTW, what kind of oven will you be using to bake the pizzas and at what temperature?

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2009, 10:30:22 AM »
Its a GE Spectra, I put the temp to 550 and have the pizza stone in the middle rack position. As for the 10.20 TBSP, I said that because I didn't know if I should have rounded up the .01 because it was at 10.206. I have another question that doesn't have to do with this, does a lower number in the % for hydration mean its more hydrated. I know that sounds off. But I am reading things and they are saying higher hydration and the number is 57%, I thought my previous doughs were high hydration because it was 70%? I am very confused now.

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2009, 10:54:03 AM »
David,

The more water the higher the hydration. Depending on the type of flour, the hydration number can vary over a fairly wide range. For example, the rated absorption value for a high-gluten flour such as the All Trumps is around 63%. However, most pizza operators using that flour to make a NY style will use a hydration in the range of 56-59%. The main reason is that it is easier to open up the dough balls to form skins at the lower hydration values. Also, it is easier to train workers to form the skins. The problem becomes most severe when you are talking about making large pizzas, typically above 14" and especially when you get to 16" and 18". A highly hydrated dough becomes harder to form into skins at the larger sizes. There are some pizza operators who use hydrations above 65%, but it is not common. In the case you referred to (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9616.0.html) where you first saw the 70% hydration value, that value is not the actual hydration value. As I noted at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9616.msg83451.html#msg83451, the actual hydration value should take into account both the base flour (All Trumps) and the semolina flour. Doing that, the actual hydration value is around 63.3%. The expanded dough calculating tool cannot perform that calculation. You have to use a regular desk calculator.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2009, 06:28:32 PM »
Where can I buy ovaltine from, I went to 4 super markets abs they didn't have them.

Offline Matthew

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2009, 06:33:58 PM »
Where can I buy ovaltine from, I went to 4 super markets abs they didn't have them.

Do you have an oriental supermarket nearby?  If so, that would be your best bet.

Matt

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2009, 06:38:03 PM »
Where can I buy ovaltine from, I went to 4 super markets abs they didn't have them.

David,

I couldn't find the Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix in any store me either. I found it at a Big Lots store that specializes in close-outs and over-runs. You might use the store locator at the Ovaltine website at http://www.ovaltineusa.com/WhereToBuy.aspx. However, the mere fact that a search shows several stores doesn't mean that they actually have the product on their shelves. In my area, Kroger's was indicated as a source of the product but I did not see in on the shelves of the Kroger's near me.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2009, 07:33:28 PM »
They had the Rich Chocolate mix and the Chocolate Malt mix but not the Classic one. There is a really big Asian supermarket near me I will go check it out tomorrow and see if they have it there.