Author Topic: AllTrumps  (Read 11596 times)

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Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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AllTrumps
« on: June 25, 2009, 10:40:55 AM »
This topic most likely has been covered, but I am having trouble finding it.  I have found a friend who can get me AllTrumps flour, and I'm looking to use in my NY style pies for this weekend.  Would like to get making the dough this morning to get it in the fridge for a couple days.  Can anyone give me their 2 cents worth on AllTrumps (the good, bad and ugly) and how it compares to the Caputo 00 I'm used to using in my italian style pies.

Amazing site and replies, wish I had found it much sooner...good to know their so many pizza freaks like myself out there.

Thanks!


Offline pcampbell

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 12:52:16 PM »
I would just say be aware that it's bleached and bromated.  I don't think potassium bromate is allowed in Italy so I am guessing caputo isn't bromated.
Patrick

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 01:29:15 PM »
I am sure that most NYC pizza operators who use the All Trumps use the bromated, bleached variety. However, as noted at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring, there is a nonbromated, nonbleached version. It may also be harder to find the nonbromated version.

Patrick is correct about the Caputo flours. They are not bleached or bromated.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the unbleached, unbromated All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-high-gluten-unbleached-unbromated-flour/50143000

Offline scott r

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2009, 12:34:10 AM »
All trumps is an amazing flour, but totally different than caputo.    It will provide you with a very light and tender crust, even though it is a high gluten flour.  This is due largely to the bromate, and once you go to the non bromated versions of the flour most of the magic is lost.   At that point its still a decent flour, but not really much different than any other american malted high gluten non bromated flour. It is designed for normal temperature ovens, where caputo is designed for high temperature ovens.   If you use all trumps at high temps you might not like it very much, but at 500 degrees it is very tough to beat (although there are a few other great alternatives that shine in one way or another).   It will brown much faster than caputo in higher temperature ovens, and can sometimes get a bit leathery, but at low temps it provides for classic NY style pizza.  It is also the flour used for what I consider to be some of the best Sicilian and Chicago thin crust style pizza I have had to date, so it is quite versatile.  A good rule of thumb is that if you are cooking below 600 go for the all trumps, and if you are going above 750 floor temp go for the caputo.   In between I like blends.   

Unfortunately bromated flour is probably unhealthy for us and is more than likely a carcinogen, so that is the MAJOR drawback.   

Offline tdeane

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2009, 12:43:48 AM »
I really don't think that All Trumps is necessary to make a great NY style pizza. A good strong bread flour is better in my opinion. I use a medium strong unbleached baker's flour that has a protein level of about 13% and I like it better than All Trumps.

Offline scott r

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2009, 01:01:15 AM »
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it is of course not "necessary" to use all trumps to make a NY style pizza (even though it is the most popular flour for that purpose here in the US).

All Trumps, being a bromated flour, is illegal in Canada where you live and operate your pizzeria.   Are you sure you tried the bromated version?  I know that here in the US where the bromated version is legal the General Mills rep for the new england area has told me the non bromated version is almost impossible to find and comprises only about 1% of his All Trumps sales.

I believe you have in the past said you are baking at 650, right?   You are on the upper end of the heat spectrum where non bromated bread flours start to shine. 

Where All Trumps really shines is when you get down to 450 or so (which is definitely the most popular temperature here in Boston where I live, and maybe even NY  ;) )   Also, terry, you have the good fortune to have been a member here for a while and have worked out all aspects of your dough making to perfection.  You might be quite surprised at how a less learned pizza maker that is having trouble making a great pizza with non bromated or even bread flour can hit the ball right out of the park by simply changing over to something like all trumps.  It is a flour that is very forgiving and robust.  Although my posts on this thread probably sound like an add for All Trumps I have found that I too prefer a non bromated bread flour as my ultimate type for many applications.





« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 08:49:55 PM by scott r »

Offline tdeane

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2009, 01:55:52 PM »
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it is of course not "necessary" to use all trumps to make a NY style pizza (even though it is the most popular flour for that purpose here in the US).

All Trumps, being a bromated flour, is illegal in Canada where you live and operate your pizzeria.   Are you sure you tried the bromated version?  I know that here in the US where the bromated version is legal the General Mills rep for the new england area has told me the non bromated version is almost impossible to find and comprises only about 1% of the All Trumps sales.

I believe you have in the past said you are baking at 650, right?   You are on the upper end of the heat spectrum where non bromated bread flours start to shine. 

Where All Trumps really shines is when you get down to 450 or so (which is definitely the most popular temperature here in Boston where I live, and maybe even NY  ;) )   Also, terry, you have the good fortune to have been a member here for a while and have worked out all aspects of your dough making to perfection.  You might be quite surprised at how a less learned pizza maker that is having trouble making a great pizza with non bromated or even bread flour can hit the ball right out of the park by simply changing over to something like all trumps.  It is a flour that is very forgiving and robust.  Although my posts on this thread probably sound like an add for All Trumps I have found that I too prefer a non bromated bread flour as my ultimate type for many applications.






I tried the bromated version. It's illegal to use it in a commercial setting in Canada but you can still import it and use it privately. I agree it probably is easier to make a decent dough with All Trumps if you don't know what you are doing but if you know what you are doing, I think you can get a superior result with a good bread flour. Pizzabiatch didn't say what temp they are baking at, so that might be good to know.

Offline mzshan

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2009, 07:50:32 PM »
Actually I happen to live in a city next to toronto, everytime I go down to buffalo to fly to states,
I usually pick up a couple of 25lb bags of All trumps and bring them back up, offcourse for personal use that is.

Tommorow (saturday June 27th, 2009) I will try to make a batch of dough NY style using All trumps.
I will be documenting the procedure.

Sunday will be the testing of it at one of local Parks here in toronto, where there is a Woodburning Pizza oven that is open to public use..

So lets see how my pie will turn out.

Shan

Offline Tbombs34

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2009, 08:55:47 AM »
I think I need to move to Canada if they have wood burning pizza ovens in public parks!   :o


Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2009, 04:51:52 PM »
Ok, with the exception to a major oven issue at my in-laws (brand new 60" dual oven, dual fuel Wolf set up), my first attempt at NY Style pies went pretty darn well.  I must say, it wouldn't have gone close to as smoothly withouth the pointers from this forum.

I went with 65% hydrated All-Trump (Bromated), with a 36-hour fridge time, and about 2 hours to come to temp on the counter.  Baked at 525, on a screen 2nd to bottom rack.
6 Ball / 65% Hydration / NY Style Crust
 
 Flour (100%):      2021.15 g  |  71.29 oz | 4.46 lbs   
 Water (65%):       1313.75 g  |  46.34 oz | 2.9 lbs   
 IDY (1.3575%):     27.44 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 9.11 tsp | 3.04 tbsp 
 Salt (1.69%):      34.16 g | 1.2 oz | 0.08 lbs | 6.12 tsp | 2.04 tbsp 
 Malt Powder (1.5%):      30.95 g | 3.21 oz | 0.2 lbs | 4.34 tbsp | 0.27 cups 
 Total (172.5475%):     3487.44 g | 123.01 oz | 7.69 lbs | TF = 0.10197 
 Single Ball:               584.24 g | 20.5 oz | 1.28 lbs   



Unfortuantely, the oven decided to not kick back on when it would hit it's set temp (i.e. only way to get it to re-heat after opening the door was to turn off then back on).  So, first pizza, beatiful.  2nd pizza a bit on the blonde side, 3rd pizza cooked a loooong time, and finally figured it out.  Last 3 were great.

Couple realizations.  I will sweat the pepperoni before using next time.  2, I really like a titch of anchovy in my sauce this time around, added a great depth of flavor.  The cheese blend I used was very well received:  Sliced part-skim mozz covering 90%, with about2.5 oz of fresh mozz scattered, and a bit of good parm reggiano grated on top after cooking.  Picture is included, due to consumption of GG Dirty Martinis and, I only had the mind to take one picture, and only with my phone!  More next time.

One issue I'd like to adress was during hand tossing I did run into a few thin spots, and the dough wasn't quite as smooth as I'd like it.  Would one contribute this to user inexperience, or dough malfunction?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 04:54:31 PM by ThePizzaBiatch »

Offline mzshan

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2009, 08:24:06 PM »
Actually Just one park... In toronto

I wish all of them did..... I did put a post regarding information on it here but it wasnt matching the catagory, so was moved to chit chat...

I think If some one is interested in building one there is some rules and regulations gotta be followed and it shouldnt be any problem construction one in a park.. for public use.

shan

Offline scott r

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 09:21:14 PM »

One issue I'd like to adress was during hand tossing I did run into a few thin spots, and the dough wasn't quite as smooth as I'd like it.  Would one contribute this to user inexperience, or dough malfunction?


This pizza looks amazing.   You really hit the ball out of the park on this one! With a touch of anchovy in the sauce, a great crust and that cheese blend.........all I can say is you are about to be very popular with your friends, family and neighbors!!!

the thin spots are more than likely from under mixing, how you formed your dough balls, or how you stretched your pies.   If you are a newbie its probably a combination. 

Good luck my friend and NICE WORK!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:20:49 AM by scott r »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »
Well,  as sometimes happens,  I have to agree with scott,  nice work!  now just do it without cheating!  -marc

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 10:58:50 PM »
ThePizzaBiatch,

Can you tell me what values you entered into the expanded dough calculating tool other than the baker's percents? Also, did you use any particular water temperatue, and was the "Malt Powder" the Carnation brand of malted milk powder as sold in supermarkets?

Peter
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 07:36:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 01:45:47 PM »
Pete,

I don't have the exact numbers from what I entered.  If they look a bit off, I can tell you that I originally had entered in honey as an ingredient, but decided to give malt powder a chance.  So that number may be approximated.  I copied and pasted the format from another post and transfered over my hand written notes, so if there's a discrepancy, hopefully it's minor.

I actually used Ovaltine powder of all things.  The browning was great.  I went with this as I had used a higher amount of yeast as I thought it might only be a 24 hour dough, and with the higher yeast didn't want to burn through the sugar.

What are your thoughts?

SSG

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 01:52:51 PM »
This pizza looks amazing.   You really hit the ball out of the park on this one! With a touch of anchovy in the sauce, a great crust and that cheese blend.........all I can say is you are about to be very popular with your friends family and neighbors!!!

the thin spots are more than likely from under mixing, how you formed your dough balls, or how you stretched your pies.   If you are a newbie its probably a combination. 

Good luck my friend and NICE WORK!

Thanks for the kind words.  I must say, after years of making italian style pizzas with much success, I was amazed at the transition...rather painless.  Also, I found that the 'average' person eating these pies over the weekend seemed to appreciate them even more than the Italian style...even though my heart is still in the classic.  Guessing it's just the fact that so many more people are accustomed to this style pie rather than my spartanly topped Italian pies.

I'm sticking with my sauce recipe, and not changing the cheese, but I will be using less yeast and giving it a bit longer time in the fridge (48 hours), and use the 'dough ball, thumb/tear test' to make sure I get the proper devleopment out of it next time, as that's what I'm guessing attributed to my occasional thin spot.

SSG

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 02:05:29 PM »
After trying to hand transfer numbers and confusing two of my original calculations, here's exactly what my crust was...sorry for any confusion.  This is for 6, 16" pizzas with a bowl residue of 2.5%.  I used Ovaltine malt powder, it had about 36 hours in the fridge, and about 2-3.5 hours counter time.  I was VERY pleased with the results, and most likely will only change the amount of IDY with a longer time in the fridge.  The browning was great, loved the flavor, texture / crumb.  No complaints...gotta like it when you get lucky the first go around.

Flour (100%):    2067.6 g  |  72.93 oz | 4.56 lbs
Water (65%):    1343.94 g  |  47.41 oz | 2.96 lbs
IDY (1.3575%):    28.07 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 9.32 tsp | 3.11 tbsp
Salt (1.69%):    34.94 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs | 6.26 tsp | 2.09 tbsp
Malted Milk Powder (1.5%):    31.01 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 4.43 tbsp | 0.28 cups
Total (169.5475%):   3505.57 g | 123.65 oz | 7.73 lbs | TF = 0.1025
Single Ball:   584.26 g | 20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs

My sauce was 1.5T of garlic & 4 large anchovies 'melted' into 4T of EVOO.  Crushed a 108oz can of Costco italian tomatoes (pureed with hand mixer prior to adding to as not to puree garlic), 1 10oz can of tomato paste, 3T sugar, oregano to taste, and about a 1.5 teaspoon of crushed red pepper.  Reduced by about 15% over a simmer until reached desired consistency, and salted to taste.  Used 5.5 oz per pie.

Cheese was all part-skim.  Used thin deli slices (local deli, WI mozz) to cover about 90% of the pie, then used about 3.5oz of fresh mozz (local Italian grocery brand) spread around pizza in small chunks, and used a good parm reggiano on top after cooking.



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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 02:22:23 PM »
SSG,

Thanks for the clarification. I had asked for your entries for the expanded dough calculating tool since I couldn't get any of the number combinations to work. It was the first time that I have been stumped since the tool, which I helped design, was first put on the forum. I was thinking that others might want to try out your recipe but for a different size pizza. When I studied your recipe, it looked like the baker's percent version of JerryMac's NY style dough recipe but with a lower hydration, a tiny bit more salt, and a substitution of the malt powder for the honey/barley malt syrup. The only malt powder used in the tool's database is the Carnation's malted milk powder, which a few members have used over the years.

Now that I see your corrected formulation, I can see that you rounded out the thickness factor I calculated for JerryMac's recipe (from 0.0992532 to 0.10) and used the bowl residue compensation (2.5%) that I suggested for his recipe.

At the outset, I also wondered why you used so much yeast (1.3575%) for a 36-hour fermentation, which prompted my question about the water temperature. Then I saw that the baker's percent for the IDY was the same as for JerryMac's recipe. I see, also, that you used regular or sea salt instead of Kosher salt.

Peter

« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:40:21 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2009, 02:38:49 PM »
Pete,

I'm starting to think you live in my oven. 

SSG :)

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2009, 02:42:18 PM »
SSG,

Lol  :-D. It's all in the numbers.

Can you tell me which particular Ovaltine product you used? I'd like to see if I can find an ingredients list for the one you used.

Peter

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 02:51:04 PM »
I was able to find an ingredients list for the Ovaltine Classic Malt powder at the Wegman's website. There are a lot of goodies--including a lot of sources of crust coloration--in the product:

Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Peter

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »
Damn you, Peter.  As I was posting this a second ago, it says "someone has posted, you may wish to re-post".  Thought I had you beat to the punch!  It was undetectable to the flavor, but the browning was spectacular.

Ingredients:
Sugar, Maltodextrin, Toasted Defatted Soy Flour, Barley Malt Extract, Whey, Caramel Color, Beet Juice Color, Milk, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Molasses, Mono- and Diglycerides, Natural Caramel Flavor, Artificial Vanilla Flavor, Soy Lecithin. Vitamins and Minerals: Tricalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Palmitate, Niacinamide, Ferric Orthophosphate (Iron), Vitamin D3, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin).

Warnings:
Made on equipment that also processes soy and wheat.

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size: 4 tbsp
Servings Per Container: 16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   mix with 1 cup fat free vit. a & d milk
Calories 80 170
     Calories from Fat 0 0
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Amount Per Serving and/or % Daily Value*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Total Fat 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Saturated Fat 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Trans Fat 0 g 0 g
Cholesterol 0 mg (0%) 5 mg (2%)
Sodium 55 mg (2%) 185 mg (8%)
Total Carbohydrate 18 g (6%) 30 g (10%)
     Dietary Fiber 0 g (0%) 0 g (0%)
     Sugars 14 g 26 g
Protein 2 g 10 g
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Vitamin A 45% 50%
Vitamin C 45% 50%
Calcium 8% 40%
Iron 15% 15%
Vitamin D 50% 80%
Thiamin (B1) 60% 60%
Riboflavin (B2) 45% 70%
Niacin 45% 45%
Vitamin B6 45% 50%
Phosphorus 8% 30%

Online Pete-zza

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2009, 03:45:42 PM »
SSG,

For your information, and for the benefit of the members who decide to try your recipe, a teaspoon of any of the Ovaltine products weighs 0.0617283 oz. By contrast, a teaspoon of the Carnation original malted milk product weighs 0.0823045 oz. It is possible that in both cases, a teaspoon or tablespoon of either product is intended to mean a "heaping" teaspoon or tablespoon, which would make sense for a drink, rather than a level teaspoon or tablespoon. Either way, if you used 4.43 tablespoons of the Ovaltine Classsic Malt powder, that would have amounted to 0.8203691 oz., or 23.257463 g., which translates to a baker's percent of 1.13% rather than 1.5%. The Malted Milk Powder entry of the expanded dough calculating tool can still be used, but the ounce weight in the table will have to be divided by 0.0617283 to get the corresponding number of teaspoons of the Ovaltine to use.

As a simple example, if my math is right, the formulation for a single 16" pizza would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt (1.69%):
Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix (1.13%):
Total (169.1775%):
345.35 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
224.48 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.49 lbs
4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
5.84 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
3.9 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
584.26 g | 20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs | TF = 0.1025
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

BTW, if you have a pizza stone big enough to accommodate a 16" pizza, with only 1.13% Ovaltine mix I think you might be able to bake the pizza directly on the stone without having the bottom crust burn. If the bottom crust browns too quickly, you can slip one of your pizza screens under the pizza to lift it off of the stone to finish baking.

I meant to mention it earlier but a 16" skin is harder to shape and stretch than a smaller one, especially a skin with a hydration of 65%. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the skins you made were quite extensible. That makes a skin more prone to thin spots.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 04:06:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2009, 05:21:19 PM »
Everything was added by weight on a 1/10th gram scale.  I do have a large fibrament stone, and will give it a shot next time around w/o the screen.  If I want to go to a longer rise to develop more flavor (i.e. a dough with a 72-96 hour window), what would you recommend on yeast / malt amounts?

Thanks again.

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Re: AllTrumps
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2009, 06:03:32 PM »
SSG,

I have a special scale that can measure small amounts of lightweight ingredients but I only use it where I don't have a volume equivalent. I use my regular digital scale to weigh flour and water but for everything else I use the volume measurements spit out by the dough calculating tools. However, in your case, where you are making a much bigger dough batch than I use, you may be able to use your scale to weigh out more ingredients than I do.

If you would like to retain the 65% hydration and go out three to four days, I think you will have to scale way back on the IDY so that the dough doesn't overferment. Using more sugar, or Ovaltine, is not likely to save you from an overfermention situation. Depending on where you live and whether it is hot/warm or cold/cool this time of year, you may have to go to IDY somewhere in the range of 0.20-0.30%. Where I am in Texas, where it has been around 95-104 degrees F for several days straight (and a correspondingly warm kitchen), I would perhaps go even lower than 0.20% IDY. When I conduct experiments like this to adapt an existing recipe to another version, I use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html and I monitor the volume expansion of the dough to see when it just about doubles. Depending on when that occurs relative to when I would like it to occur, I use that information to determine if and in which direction I might have to adjust the yeast for the next iteration.

As for the Ovaltine, I think it is safe to view it as primarily a sugar product (the sugar, maltodextrine, and barley malt syrup are high up on the ingredients list). On this basis, 1.13% Ovaltine is perhaps a pretty good number. However, I think you could go to 1.5% without inviting potential bottom crust browning/burning problems. That is one of those cases where you may have to do some experimenting. In addition to the contribution of the sugars to crust color development (and other normal purposes), you also have the caramel color, beet color and molasses to contribute to crust coloration (perhaps in a minor way because of their small amounts) and some whey and other dairy products in the Ovaltine that will also contribute to the crust coloration because of the lactose sugars in the dairy products.

I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.

Peter