Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?  (Read 48520 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2010, 04:34:20 PM »
Oven cooks decently.  Brick seems a little soft inside, (floor) also the floor is bricks, not larger stones.  Takes a long time to get up to temp. 

Every single one seems to have "shipping damage", the one mentioned above, the one on ebay, and the one I worked with. 

Will it work? Yes. 

Is it a quality product?  Hard to say..  I guess time will tell..
pizza, pizza, pizza


Offline seerad

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2010, 10:44:21 AM »
From experience, I personally love the Cirigliano Forni! The owners here grew up in Naples and it's the only oven that they'll use.  Our oven arrived with some slight damage to the clay casing around the brick and we were pretty ticked, so we called the company that sold them, Euro Gourmet, and they made it right.  They have really good customer service.  I can't speak for others' experiences but mine was and continues to be very good as we also have Euro Gourmet ship us the product for making the pizza as well.

They actually have perfected a pizza oven on wheels (built with a Cirigliano Forni, of course) that is a complete pizza oven on wheels solution with a triple sink and fridge and prep section.  The owners of the company are looking into purchasing one. Just not sure if we want to spend the money right now with the economy the way that it is.  Oh well, we'll see. If we end up buying it I'll let you know if the craftsmanship and service are consistent as what we've had in the past.  I guess it's possible we just got lucky.

Has anyone else seen the oven on wheels?

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2010, 12:08:47 PM »
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in faireness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders.

Ciao

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2010, 12:58:54 PM »
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in fairness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders
I was reading another thread from a few years back where you made mention of some of those concerns too, You stated that the door opening may be too tall in relation to the dome height, the dome height may be in error for the diameter of the deck, and a few other speculations which may cause increased fuel usage to maintain proper temps.
The place in London you are referring to that has one of these ovens, how can you be sure it is the ovens fault for an inferior product and not the base recipe or the procedures that they chose to use for their pizza?

I currently do BBQ for a living, (I am adding a WFO to the restaurant in the very near future, hence my presence here) and I have had some very nasty BBQ that was cooked in the same model BBQ Pit that I use, but I do not blame their pit for the poor quality, I blame the cooks and the base recipes for the inferior product because what I pull out of the pit is fully different and far superior in every aspect of theirs.

The Cirigliano Forni product is on my research list as a possible oven provider, as is earthstone, Forno Bravo, pacific Coast, and a host of several other commercial rated ovens besides woodstone ovens, woodstone got crossed of my list of possibles very early in the game by speaking with people that own and have used them along their substantial high purchase costs.

So I am researching commercial ovens as we discuss this topic. I just want to verify what you state about your dislike from a products made in a Cirigliano Forni unit is actually caused by the oven, and not the cooks or the way they operate the oven.

Do you feel the dome dimensions are in error? maybe the dome dimensions are fine, but the door is too tall? materials and thickness of the materials, the composition of the bricks?
Any and all information on the likes dislikes of each different manufacturer would be very helpful to me and others at this point, but ask that you please substantiate your opinions with the "Whys & hows" of your likes & dislikes.

Thanks
G-R
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2010, 01:31:24 PM »
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in faireness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders.

Ciao

I understand that there are certain physical characteristics that form a criteria for judging a Neapolitan oven, but, in your view, do you (personally) consider any oven not made in Naples a candidate for "true Neapolitan pizza oven" status?

I ask to try and determine whether or not geography has any significance whatsoever...


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2010, 03:06:33 PM »
 Hi Mo/Got rocks,

From a previous reply and from various previous messages on this forum I have covered all that, in details. I also noted you previous comments about geography and that if VPN approve them that any oven is good enough but unfortunately that is not the case. As part of your research you should actually use the ovens in a commercial environment at their peak service and see, even in a 5 minutes time frame how many pizza they cook and what intervention the pizza makers needs to have to cook the pizzas.... I do not know too much about you and you probably do not know about me, but I have actually produced pizza in a commercial environment and still do so (500+ pizza at service at Franco Manca in Brixton with a Forno Napoletano Oven..).  Please let’s not go down the route of comparing the BBQ with an oven…. Plus I already say and demonstrated that I can cook pizza napoletana in most wood burning oven, but I, and any decent Neapolitan pizzamaker, could probably only do so for 1 or 2 pizza at the time, as we would constantly need to move the pizza all over the floor and up and down to catch the heat…..

Few bullet points for you:

I am not saying that I do not like the Pizza Metro's pizza, I am just say that do not cook as in Neapolitan oven, and therefore the final product is affected by default, but I actually like it for what it is, accidently closer to the one find in Salerno/Sorrento pizza by the meter. To cook properly it takes more then two minutes. If you just raised the temperature that it burns underneath without cooking evenly. I have, as many Neapolitan pizzaiolo,  the expertise to judge how an oven cook as described above. I am happy to prove it to you any time. I have been next to the guys at Pizza Metro when using the oven at peak and observed the troubles. The Fornaio was also confirming the above as they were working and even stated at a point "unfortunately we do not have an oven like at Donna Margherita (5 minutes away).

It is not a question of regionality, but the Neapolitan ovens has only ever been built by a couple of families that have maintained the secret of constructions for at least the last 300 years. These ovens have developed in Naples out of necessity of cooking pizza in a specific way making easier for the pizzaiolo to work. And therefore, where outside Naples pizza napoletana has never been produced, that type of oven as never arrived..  The oven functionality is dependent on the dimension that affect both active heat (the flame and coal) and how much wood it consume. The peculiar materials, mostly naturally extracted in the Neapolitan region, are then, with the secret of construction, equally responsible for the passive heat from the floor and for how long the keep warm and how long the oven last. If you build an exact replica in dimension of a Neapolitan oven not using the specific materials and knowing exactly how they build certain things, you may have something that look like a Neapolitan oven but it won’t cook as one (even in Naples you can find those built by brick layers that at Forno Napoletano we often replace), and therefore even then it cannot be called a Neapolitan oven.

Final bullet point: The best testimonials comes from people that have tried a Neapolitan oven, especially the best examples like in Spaccanapoli, Nella, Il Pizzaiolo and Bettola amongs others in US, and can tell you what a difference it makes as even reported in an earlier response by David about Motorino. Then to go back to your statement about if VPN approve it then it is ok, visit all the original VPN members in Naples and see if any of them have any other but a Neapolitan hand built oven by one of the always mentioned family. They are business people as well and if a prefab oven was up to the task of producing our pizza, then they would have use it as it would cost 1/5 of an hand built one described above. And to tell you more, I know two pizzaioli that went they first went independent (after working for years in one of the many historic pizzeria) installed a prefab oven for 1500 euro, only to have to close the restaurant again for two weeks soon after to replace it with one made by our master builder! When VPN started in America any wood oven would have done it as they were trying to protect the sign “pizza napoletana” advertised in places that did not even have that… In my Opinion, now that we have a different situation, they would love to go back to some of their members and ask them to install proper oven because their pizza could greatly benefit from it, but how can they do that???? And if they only start asking their new members, it would be even more inconsistent..


If my advise is not good enough from you good for me. i have been here before and now many people that have read me are in a different place (Can you guys remember the argument on coal ovens....)

Ciao

Marco
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 03:08:41 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12833
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2010, 03:43:58 PM »
Marco,

Of the wood ovens that are available in the United States (excluding custom built ovens), which would you reccomend for home use. Recognizing that they are not true Neapolitan ovens, which comes the closest?

Thanks,
Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2010, 04:02:34 PM »
Marco,

Of the wood ovens that are available in the United States (excluding custom built ovens), which would you reccomend for home use. Recognizing that they are not true Neapolitan ovens, which comes the closest?

Thanks,
Craig

For home use? Build your own! That was why we started a thread on wood ovens many years ago.. for home use approximation...

Offline phdonme

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
  • Age: 34
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2010, 04:17:26 PM »
Marko, will you be at the pizza expo in Las Vegas?

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2010, 04:47:23 PM »

but I have actually produced pizza in a commercial environment and still do so (500+ pizza at service at Franco Manca in Brixton with a Forno Napoletano Oven..). 

Hi Marco,

I am curious, how long to did it take to cook 500+ pizzas in your Forno Napoletano? Or is that an all-day?

I have cooked 100+ an hour in the Valoriani with really good results. I'm not going to try and defend it as a "true Neapolitan pizza oven" but if speed of cooking and volume is to be one of the measuring points, then I would only say that other models might at least warrant some consideration.

I am certainly still learning and defer to those with much more experience. I do, however, like to explore facts and that is why I ask pointed questions.

I think you're right about the VPN and certainly don't look to them (the American association anyway) for much guidance in these discussions as they seem to have a rather undefined criteria. Whether they started out a certain way and later have followed a different path, I cannot say...

Anyway, I appreciate the discussions here and have learned much as a result...

mo.


Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2010, 05:01:43 PM »
Maybe there is something being lost in translation, that other thread was filled with emotion, and had zero factual evidence besides conjecture, I was hoping we could avoid that here and see facts posted instead.

Quote
As part of your research you should actually use the ovens in a commercial environment at their peak service and see, even in a 5 minutes time frame how many pizza they cook and what intervention the pizza makers needs to have to cook the pizzas....

That is infeasible for me, and and for most other people to be able to just jet off around the world to eat pizza at different places and watch them being cooked, That is why I am partaking in internet based research. There is absolutely nothing that I cannot learn through proper communication son the "World Wide Web" isn't that why we are all here?

Then you state;
Quote
Please let’s not go down the route of comparing the BBQ with an oven….

Nowhere was I trying to compare BBQ with using a WFO for pizza,  I simply stated that I have a BBQ business and I am planning on adding a wood-fired oven to do pizza at the same establishment, how you ever thought it was a comparison issue is beyond me! Again, is it a translation issue??

Quote
I am not saying that I do not like the Pizza Metro's pizza, I am just say that do not cook as in Neapolitan oven, and therefore the final product is affected by default, but I actually like it for what it is, accidentally closer to the one find in Salerno/Sorrento pizza by the meter. To cook properly it takes more then two minutes. If you just raised the temperature that it burns underneath without cooking evenly. I have, as many Neapolitan pizzaiolo,  the expertise to judge how an oven cook as described above. I am happy to prove it to you any time.


okay, great wonderful, But that entire paragraph has no factual substance to it, I/we specifically asked if you could explain the hows & whys for the reason that oven does not work, too high of a dome? to wide of a dome? too deep? wrong materials? door opening? What facts can you show to back up your claims of why that particular model of oven is not suitable for pizza?? You state they do not cook in a "Neopolitan Oven" Someone esle asked if yur defenition of "Neapolitan Oven" meant the style of oven, or one built in the region. And I am still unclear of your defention until the next paragraph.

Quote
It is not a question of regionality, but the Neapolitan ovens has only ever been built by a couple of families that have maintained the secret of constructions for at least the last 300 years. These ovens have developed in Naples out of necessity of cooking pizza in a specific way making easier for the pizzaiolo to work. And therefore, where outside Naples pizza napoletana has never been produced, that type of oven as never arrived..  The oven functionality is dependent on the dimension that affect both active heat (the flame and coal) and how much wood it consume. The peculiar materials, mostly naturally extracted in the Neapolitan region, are then, with the secret of construction, equally responsible for the passive heat from the floor and for how long the keep warm and how long the oven last. If you build an exact replica in dimension of a Neapolitan oven not using the specific materials and knowing exactly how they build certain things, you may have something that look like a Neapolitan oven but it won’t cook as one (even in Naples you can find those built by brick layers that at Forno Napoletano we often replace), and therefore even then it cannot be called a Neapolitan oven.

Ok, with that last paragraph, I get that you are saying that if the basic building materials do not come from Italy, and you do not bring an oven builder with 300 years of oven building in their family to build your oven on-site, that we'll never have a properly working oven. I tend to disagree, if the critical dimensions are correct, and a material with similar qualities is used, there is no reason someone could not produce a workable oven in another country.


Quote
If my advise is not good enough from you good for me. i have been here before and now many people that have read me are in a different place (Can you guys remember the argument on coal ovens....)

Nobody stated that your opinion is not good enough, it is more that people, (myself included) are just trying to get specific answers on why certain products from different makers are unsuitable, this could be due to the geometry, door opening height, deck materials, exhaust flue even down to the fuel wood of choice.

To put  it more blatantly. What Specific features do not make these particular ovens suitable in your opinion? just because they are not built in a specific Italian region? or is it the critical dimensions?

I am not trying to argue, and I do not feel anyone else here that is asking for clarification is trying to argue either.
 I am just trying to get verifiable facts on ovens before I drop $15K-$25K to get an oven in my establishment,
 I need to know what features, dimensions and whatever is suitable, and what is not suitable without being required to purchase 12 different units and test each one in my location to determine the issues or fly around the world to cook in each different make & model.

A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2010, 06:01:07 PM »
I think you would be surprised what you can get for $15-$25k..Also, if you plan on making "Neapolitan" pizza, wouldn't it be in your best interest to invest the money, and time, in jetting around the world tasting, and watching people make Neapolitan pizza?  Why wouldn't you want a real reference, and control point, to the product that you plan to represent?

If you don't plan on making Neapolitan pizza, why does it matter that you have a Neapolitan oven?  Forgive me if you answered these questions in your previous post, I couldn't make it all the way through..

*edit* read your post through..

One more thing about the Cirigliano Forni, the floor, being made out of bricks rather than stone, is not smooth or even, this brick is higher than that one, and the one after that is lower than the one beside it. Not a lot, but there is a variance.  Do you follow what I am saying?  If you have experience with these style of pizza ovens and the tools that are used with them, you know what I am getting at.  Now, imagine that those bricks are very soft, what could happen?

*edit#2* I agree that Eurogourmet has good customer service.   :)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:49:02 PM by shango »
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2010, 10:58:17 PM »
I think you would be surprised what you can get for $15-$25k..Also, if you plan on making "Neapolitan" pizza, wouldn't it be in your best interest to invest the money, and time, in jetting around the world tasting, and watching people make Neapolitan pizza?  Why wouldn't you want a real reference, and control point, to the product that you plan to represent?

Exactly duplicating a Neapolitan pie is not on my list of priorities, But knowing that a certain oven has those capabilities if it is needed is a priority!
Do you follow me?
My goal is to find an efficient, well-built, commercial-rated WFO that is allowable for use in a commercial kitchen in the USA with the proper UL, ANSI, NSF and other ratings that are required for me to use it in a commercial situation. I want to get the right oven the first time around instead of pissing away my money twice.
There is a huge list of manufacturers out there, and I am currently narrowing down the list by their capabilities. When someone says "That is not the correct oven for a certain style of pizza", I would like to know why it is not the correct choice, and maybe even have verifiable facts to back that statement up.

What is an easier way to explain this?  Maybe that I feel it is prudent to just get the right equipment the first time around instead of purchasing something twice!

Why can't I fly around the world to try pizza? Because I see it as a waste of money not necessary to reach my current goals.
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2010, 11:00:21 PM »
Well then, I would suggest that you do just what you want.  It's not for me or anyone else to tell you how to spend your time, or your money, is it?

I'm sure whatever you choose will be the best choice.
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2010, 05:19:26 AM »
Hi Marco,

I am curious, how long to did it take to cook 500+ pizzas in your Forno Napoletano? Or is that an all-day?

I have cooked 100+ an hour in the Valoriani with really good results. I'm not going to try and defend it as a "true Neapolitan pizza oven" but if speed of cooking and volume is to be one of the measuring points, then I would only say that other models might at least warrant some consideration.

I am certainly still learning and defer to those with much more experience. I do, however, like to explore facts and that is why I ask pointed questions.

I think you're right about the VPN and certainly don't look to them (the American association anyway) for much guidance in these discussions as they seem to have a rather undefined criteria. Whether they started out a certain way and later have followed a different path, I cannot say...

Anyway, I appreciate the discussions here and have learned much as a result...

mo.


In under 3 hours, with the peak of about 200 in the 12.30 to 14.00 hrs timeframe. Also how the pizza cook? can you post a picture of your pizza? What is the average cooking time for pizza?. The answers to those questions are facts. I have already covered them before. I have not reason to lie. When I first start consulting pizzeria outside of naples, my main difficulty was making a decent product with those other ovens. Well, it was not feasable commercially (output and quality). The oven needs to help the pizzaiolo make a certain type of pizza, at a certain speed, with a certain quality output. I only worked with two ovens that can do that for me. One of my old masters as Fornaio use to tell me that once we are at peak service, we are on a ride, in and out no stop, you only need to turn each pizza once, otherwise is a waste of time.

At some point I will post a video of an in and out pizza to show you what I mean...

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2010, 05:26:41 AM »
GotRocks,

The BBQ comment was in response to your allegation that a bad BBQ food and a bad pizza could not be dependent from where these were cooked. A Pizza Oven is much more a dependable then a BBQ, that is what my statement was referring to. I was not talking about what business do you run or other thing.

If Shango allow me, when he first started on this forum he had a wealth of experience using ovens in America, producing VPN pizza, but had never been to Naples. After his trip to Naples, I belive his views have changed considerably, so you cannot learn everything behind a screen IMO. Other then that, again as Shango said, it is not up to use to convince you. I gave you my views, based on my experience, make what you want out of it. I guess the 1000 plus pizzeria in Naples should start changing their ovens for those cheaper ones as these work as well!!!!

Firstly, back to my statement about neapolitans, a compinations of dimension and materials makes what it is.  If you make an exact dimensional copy, without the same materials, are you achieveing the same property of floor strenght, contact heat, warming up mass etc... there are few things that it is not in our interest to share, but there are huge mistakes assumption made by some people that have tried to replicate a neapolitan oven. In any case, mostly the dimension and shape have been wrong, even within the neapolitan copies (made in Naples). Shape of dome and height being big differences for the radiant and direct heat. The shape and dimension of the opening "mouth badly affect cold/hot spots and wood consuptions. Are these good enough facts???


PS If I am a big corporation and start sponsoring events so that my Ovens get recommend it, does it make me the oven of choice? Expecially if at the same event, the organizes actually use ovens made by an artisan????? Food for thought
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 05:33:46 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2232
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2010, 05:52:51 AM »
Exactly duplicating a Neapolitan pie is not on my list of priorities, But knowing that a certain oven has those capabilities if it is needed is a priority!
Do you follow me?
My goal is to find an efficient, well-built, commercial-rated WFO that is allowable for use in a commercial kitchen in the USA with the proper UL, ANSI, NSF and other ratings that are required for me to use it in a commercial situation. I want to get the right oven the first time around instead of pissing away my money twice.
There is a huge list of manufacturers out there, and I am currently narrowing down the list by their capabilities. When someone says "That is not the correct oven for a certain style of pizza", I would like to know why it is not the correct choice, and maybe even have verifiable facts to back that statement up.

What is an easier way to explain this?  Maybe that I feel it is prudent to just get the right equipment the first time around instead of purchasing something twice!

Why can't I fly around the world to try pizza? Because I see it as a waste of money not necessary to reach my current goals.

GR,
There are many posts within the forum, (mostly written by Marco) that contain the answers that your looking for.  In know that it's not on your to do list but most people who have purchased these ovens have in fact travelled to Naples & visited various manufacturers & restaurants, etc in order to make their decision.  Most people have also trained with master pizzaioli in Naples. Working with one of these ovens is an art & is just as difficult as producing a good dough, it takes alot of practice & experience.  These ovens are manufactured to sustain temperatures of 1000+ degrees & perform best at these temperatures.  As Marco mentioned, even the best pizzaiolos cannot handle more than 2 at a time.  Without the proper experience your pizza will turn to charcoal in no time.  If it is not your intention to make Neapolitan pizza then this may not be the right oven for you.  A mass produced & reputable manufacturer may be your best choice.  There are many companies out there who sell efficient, well-built, commercial-rated ovens, they are not "Neapolitan Ovens" by definition, but if your not making Neapolitan pizza then it doesn't really matter.

Matt
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 05:55:59 AM by Matthew »

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2010, 10:05:19 AM »
In under 3 hours, with the peak of about 200 in the 12.30 to 14.00 hrs timeframe.

Three hours is 180 minutes, right? So, 12:30-14:00 is 90 minutes in which you cook 200 pizzas. Is my math correct if I assume that the other 300 pizzas are cooked in 90 minutes as well?

How many pizzas in the oven at the same time? Judging by your numbers, it looks like cook time for your oven seems to be around 60 seconds or under per pizza. Would you say that's accurate? This of course depends on how many you cook at once...

I am interested to watch your video if you get it posted...

As far as what my pizzas look like, I'll try to post a photo tomorrow. I do have some shots I've taken in the last couple days. I can say that they have a combination of good leoparding along with nice browning. The bottom shows some char but I would say this char represents less than 25% of the surface area. Crust is lightly crispy with a tender crumb and large, irregular fermentation pockets. The center is quite thin but will hold up when right out of the oven. After about a minute on the plate, the center will start to sag a bit but I believe this is probably typical. Cook time is around 90 seconds, maybe a bit more.

For our operation, I have tried to incorporate elements of Neapolitan style. I have not worried too much about claims to authenticity as our ingredient/product mix reflects more of a contemporary, local flair. We do use 00 and other traditional ingredients. Our prosciutto is made by La Quercia here in Iowa, absolutely without a doubt the best prosciutto I have ever had. They also make coppa (which we use) lardo, pancetta and speck...We get our greens, cream, goat cheese, mozz and sausage locally as well. We use a 6-year aged balsamic from Modena and a Tunisian evoo. Our sea salt is from Bali. I have brought in some mozzarella di buffala from Campania couple times to run as special. As soon as the local growing season gets going here, we'll get all of our produce from within a 20-mile radius.

Did I mention I love talking about this stuff?

mo.



Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2010, 10:34:26 AM »
I can understand being proud of your product, enjoying your work, and loving to discuss pizza, or even food in general.  I feel the same way.

What I cannot understand is insisting that a product, such as a pizza oven, is something that it clearly is not.  The distinction between wood fueled oven, and Neapolitan pizza oven is slight, but a distinction none the less.  They are not the same thing.  Insisting that they are is silly. Even the manufacturers do not make these claims..

Again, if you are not making "Neapolitan" pizza.  Why insist that the oven is Neapolitan?
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2010, 10:59:46 AM »
I can understand being proud of your product, enjoying your work, and loving to discuss pizza, or even food in general.  I feel the same way.

What I cannot understand is insisting that a product, such as a pizza oven, is something that it clearly is not.  The distinction between wood fueled oven, and Neapolitan pizza oven is slight, but a distinction none the less.  They are not the same thing.  Insisting that they are is silly. Even the manufacturers do not make these claims..

Again, if you are not making "Neapolitan" pizza.  Why insist that the oven is Neapolitan?


I don't believe I have insisted anywhere (perhaps you are not referring to me specifically) that the oven I use should be labeled one thing or the other. I have only tried to draw out the differences by asking others who have done the insisting. I am, however, always skeptical when I hear unspecific, vague, subject-to-interpretation terms like "true", "authentic" and "real" thrown around as though they hold some quantifiable, easily identifiable attributes.

But you're are absolutely right. Ultimately, if you make kick-ass pizza, who cares how you did it or what you did it in? And let's not forget, traditions evolve and develop over time. What is new and innovative now will seem old hat in 50 years...